Robust Porter - Black Patent vs. Roasted Barley vs. Carafa III

[alcibiades]

Hi All,

its been about 8 years since I've brewed.....or posted anything. Glad to be back!

I found the following recipe for a Robust Porter I eventually want to add coffee to:

5 Gallon batch
9# two Row
1# chocolate malt
1#crystal 40
8 oz flaked barley
4 oz black patent
1 oz roasted Barley
4 oz brown sugar

I don't know if I like the roasted barley addition, and am weary of the black patent. I don't want too many acrid roasted flavors, but rather something smoother and more chocolate that would complement my eventual coffee addition.

What do you all add to your porters to get that necessary roast, and color, but without too many dark roast flavors? I'm thinking of 5 oz Carafa III debittered instead of the black patent and roasted barley.

Thoughts?

 

[303Dan]

Your recipe looks good to me. I think you could go either way on the Roasted Barley vs Black Patent. Black Patent would be more to style in a porter or robust porter in my opinion. Black Patent malt is actually not any more acrid or ashy than roasted barley. It gets a bad wrap there. Don't be weary of it, especially in a Porter. The super harsh/ashy range, in terms of Lovibond, for kilned or roasted malt is like 70L-200L. That's why you don't see any kilned or roasted malt in that range. You have a big gap between something like Brown malt at around 70L and Pale Chocolate Malt at around 200L where there is nothing in between that's not a crystal malt. I actually feel like black patent is a little smoother than a lighter chocolate malt. It's a more dark roast flavor, but chocolate malt is sharper, in my opinion, if that makes sense. Anyway, my point is don't be afraid of black patent malt.

If you're really concerned about the addition of the coffee pushing the bitter roast flavors over the top, you could definitely sub some of the chocolate malt and black patent malt out for carafa III special, which is dehusked and therefore less bitter.

Oh, btw, what's the brown sugar for? Are you looking for that to impart flavor or to help dry the beer out a bit?

Dan

 

[alcibiades]

Thanks for the advice!

Brown sugar would be to up the ABV and get it slightly hot. I kind of desire that warmth in a winter beer.

I think I’ll go with black patent but replace the roasted barley with carafa III

 

[BrewMan13]

I use 12oz of black patent in my porter and it comes out just right for mine (and others) tastes. A lot of people seem scared of black patent or roasted malts in general, a sentiment I have never shared. And 4oz isn't much, you'll be fine.

 

[DownHillonWater]

If you want to completely avoid the risk of it being over roasty, go to Carafa II, maybe 8 oz. The other advantage of Carafa II in my experience is that the level of roastiness is very stable over time. Black Patent will be very strong in the first few weeks and then mellow. Another option to consider....I've recently made a Porter with a mixture of 8 oz Carafa II and 4 oz of Midnight Wheat. It was excellent and I think would work well for your coffee addition.

 

[ProblemChild]

I have had the Porter from Brewman13 - He speaks true......

 

[Hermit]

I go with the de-bittered. Once when the home brew shop was out he suggested wheat. Naturally de-husked. Worked well. After a recent thread on here I'm wondering if some of my problems with dark malts was really a pH problem. I didn't really know much about pH until after I'd switched to de-husked so I'm not sure now if that was my problem.

 

[filthyastronaut]

That's a small amount of both, and you should get a nice roast without acrid flavors. I'd also not use any sugar unless you are using a yeast that can't ferment maltotriose, like a few English strains.

 

[thehaze]

I really like English Black Malt: https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/simpsons-black-malt

It's different than Roasted Barley and I can't say I like it better, but it adds something I enjoy tremendously in Porters and Stouts, and usually enything where I want a bit of roast.

 

[rhys333]

I think your recipe at the top is solid, though at 11% roasted grains it's definitely roast dominant and stout-ish rather than your typical porter. You'd want to reduce the roasted grains by about half or a bit less if you really want it to be more porter-like. Again though, still good as a stout.

Also, I agree with others that black patent is associated with porter and RB with stout. I would not fear the BP though! It's smoother and more approachable that both RB and chocolate malt, and can impart some really nice dark fruit flavors. I use it in a dark mild and there's barely a hint of roast character, if any.

I'm splitting hairs now, but for my tastes I would drop the RB as its only 0.5% anyway. If you're cool with the stout-like roast character, then I'd keep the same % of roasted grains you have, but split it 50/50 chocolate and BP. I'd also drop the brown sugar, as it's not doing a whole lot at just 2%. Your crystal malt amounts are bang on for my tastes. That C40 will give it a sweeter edge, or C80 is another good option that will give it a deeper complex flavor, with more dark fruit notes and less up-front sweetness. Both good.

 

[z-bob]

I've been doing 90% pale ale malt, 5% C20, and 5% Black Patent malt. I mix it up with the hops and the yeast. Last time was with yeast harvested from Bell's and Willamette hops. If I use a low-attentuating yeast (like S-33, T-58, or Windsor) I usually goose the ABV with a little sugar -- especially for winter beers. I didn't use any sugar with the Bell's yeast, just brewed to whatever gravity would give me about 5.6% ABV and the beer turned out outstanding.

 

[rhys333]

I've been doing 90% pale ale malt, 5% C20, and 5% Black Patent malt. I mix it up with the hops and the yeast. Last time was with yeast harvested from Bell's and Willamette hops. If I use a low-attentuating yeast (like S-33, T-58, or Windsor) I usually goose the ABV with a little sugar -- especially for winter beers. I didn't use any sugar with the Bell's yeast, just brewed to whatever gravity would give me about 5.6% ABV and the beer turned out outstanding.

I'm curious, what sort of dark malt character do you get from going with only the BP at 5%? Any roast flavor and or aroma, or just dark fruit flavors?

 

[z-bob]

I'm curious, what sort of dark malt character do you get from going with only the BP at 5%? Any roast flavor and or aroma, or just dark fruit flavors?

I really don't know; it just tastes good. I like it better than my porter attempts that had brown and chocolate malts in them, OTOH those might have just been too strong. (they were kinda sweet and boozy) I attributed any fruitiness in my new recipe to the hops and yeast. I will open one tonight and try to pay attention

 

[z-bob]

I really don't know; it just tastes good. I like it better than my porter attempts that had brown and chocolate malts in them, OTOH those might have just been too strong. (they were kinda sweet and boozy) I attributed any fruitiness in my new recipe to the hops and yeast. I will open one tonight and try to pay attention

Sorry, I still can't really identify anything. I taste and smell herbal and slightly floral notes from the hops, then there's some roastiness and bitterness from the black malt as well as the hop bitterness. I don't know that i would recognize dark fruits. (you mean like prunes and raisins, and maybe dried apricots, right?)
It's good beer tho', I opened a 1L bottle and it's almost gone.

 

[rhys333]

Sorry, I still can't really identify anything. I taste and smell herbal and slightly floral notes from the hops, then there's some roastiness and bitterness from the black malt as well as the hop bitterness. I don't know that i would recognize dark fruits. (you mean like prunes and raisins, and maybe dried apricots, right?)
It's good beer tho', I opened a 1L bottle and it's almost gone.

Yep, raisins, prunes and such. I get it from my stout but the C80 could be helping with that. Thanks for the follow up. I'm curious enough now to try using only BP in my next porter. Maybe 6% worth.

 

[z-bob]

Yep, raisins, prunes and such. I get it from my stout but the C80 could be helping with that. Thanks for the follow up. I'm curious enough now to try using only BP in my next porter. Maybe 6% worth.

I've gone 90% 2-row, 6% Black Patent, and 4% C20. The 90/5/5 is better but not by much better. The difference could have been something else, process related. Or maybe the pale ale malt. Here's exactly what I brewed last time: (if I can get attachments to work using a Chromebook)

 

[rhys333]

I've gone 90% 2-row, 6% Black Patent, and 4% C20. The 90/5/5 is better but not much better. The difference could have been something else, process related. Or maybe the pale ale malt. Here's exactly what I brewed last time: (if I can get attachments to work using a Chromebook)

Looks good. I see you use Brewer's Friend. One of my favorites, and I find it's predictions are highly accurate. Perhaps 0.04 off at the outside.