RO water and salt additions

[OZZ]

So I've been doing a ton of researching and reading, and been playing with the various water calculators and I believe I have a good handle on how to go about utilizing RO water, salts, and acid malt for brewing.

One question that eludes me though.

If I'm using say 8 gallons of strike water and 8 gallons of sparge water (batch sparging) can I simply add all my salts to the strike water so that I can use less acid malt to hit target ph range? Then of course the final concentrations will get lowered since I'm batch sparging with straight RO water.

For example:

Target final water profile: cal 77, mag 6, sodium 0, chloride 56, sulfate 136

Mash water 7.75 gal sparge 8.25 gal

Adding 12 g gypsum, 7 g calcium chloride and 4 g Epsom to ONLY my strike water gets me cal 158, mag 13, sodium 0, chloride 115, sulfate 281 with a mash ph of 5.33 (with 8oz acid malt )

Once I batch sparge with the 8.25 gallons of straight RO and combine the runnings a I then get my target numbers listed as listed above ( cal 77, mag 6, sodium 0, chloride 56, sulfate 136 )

Is it ok to do it this way or should I split the salts equally between the strike and sparge waters? I'd rather just add it to the mash out of laziness but if there's a good reason to split it that's fine too????

 

[oujens]

Yes, you can do this. I use Bru'n water and it has you treat both. I find this calculator reliable so I follow its recommendations, but you can do what you describe. I once did this using a different calculator but found my pH estimates were way off. Haven't had an issue with Bru'n Water yet.

 

[BobBailey]

Yes you can, but keep in mind that all of the minerals(salts) you add to the mash won't carry over to the boil. The salts added to the boil are for flavor, so if you're adding salts for flavor they should really be added to the kettle. Depending on the beer, you may or may not be able to detect any difference.

 

[SlanginDueces]

I've always treated both Mash and boil. Watch your sparge water PH, I usually have to hit mine with a little bit of lactic acid to get it down to an acceptable range.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, you can add all the salts calculated for the entire batches of water into only the mashing water. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has that capability built in and it accounts correctly for that increased Ca and Mg content and its effect on pH. This is a very handy feature when you want relatively low ionic content in your brewing water, but still want enough Ca in the mash to help precipitate out the oxalate. I use the technique all the time in my lagers.

Don't worry at all about salts added to the mash not carrying over into the kettle. The only ion that is lost in any significant amount is Ca. The rest of the ions are all highly soluble and come through virtually unchanged from the mash tun. The only real requirement for calcium in the kettle is to have around 50 ppm when brewing ales. That level is to help assure that the yeast will flocculate reasonably well from the beer. You don't need much calcium in your water since the malt supplies all the Ca the yeast need for their metabolism.

 

[OZZ]

Duplicate post

 

[OZZ]

Yes, you can add all the salts calculated for the entire batches of water into only the mashing water. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has that capability built in and it accounts correctly for that increased Ca and Mg content and its effect on pH. This is a very handy feature when you want relatively low ionic content in your brewing water, but still want enough Ca in the mash to help precipitate out the oxalate. I use the technique all the time in my lagers.

Don't worry at all about salts added to the mash not carrying over into the kettle. The only ion that is lost in any significant amount is Ca. The rest of the ions are all highly soluble and come through virtually unchanged from the mash tun. The only real requirement for calcium in the kettle is to have around 50 ppm when brewing ales. That level is to help assure that the yeast will flocculate reasonably well from the beer. You don't need much calcium in your water since the malt supplies all the Ca the yeast need for their metabolism.

Thanks for the input everyone, so if calcium is the only ion I need to worry about not carrying over from the mash and I add all salts to my mash water, how do I know how much calcium is then left in the wort at end of boil to help with flocculation?

For example, in EZ water calc, if I add 6 grams gypsum and 6 grams calcium chloride I end up with a final profile (after mash and sparge waters are combined) of Cal 51, chloride 49, and sulfate 57 (for a blonde ale). PH comes in at 5.27 with 8oz acid malt. If I split the additions between mash and sparge the only thing that changes is mash PH jumping a bit to 5.32. It still list the calcium as 51. So your saying I can't trust that I have a 51 calcium content if I add all salts to the mash only?

 

[mabrungard]

The calcium level needed to induce good flocculation is dependent upon the yeast species. Some flocculate easier than others. In addition, that 50 ppm value is a generally observed value that is based on known inputs of calcium salts. Undoubtedly, some of that content is left in the mash tun as calcium phosphate precipitate. So, its a case of splitting hairs in deciding if there is enough in the kettle. I have to say that you would have to experiment and observe on your own. Try a calculated Ca level and see if the beer clears adequately. If it doesn't, be sure to add more calcium in the next version of that beer. Sorry I can't be more specific.

 

[OZZ]

Hmmm .... Maybe it's best to split the salt additions on low solute brew water then and not worry about it, it's easy to do and the difference between a mash PH of 5.27 and 5.32 (in this example anyway) I'm guessing is negligible

 

[bbohanon]

I use Bru'N water as well to treat mash and sparge water only for my water profiles with RO/Distilled water which is all I use.

I always aim for a Ph of 5.4/5.5 as I have found 5.3 Ph or below can mute hop characteristics and produce a much thinner beer mouth feel and taste-wise.
I hit my mash Ph of 5.4/5.5, it always yields the best results for me.

I adjust the Ca/Ma/Na/SO/Cl to dial in the mineral profile for the specific style of beer I am brewing, but the Mash Ph is always targeted for 5.4/5.5.

YMMV.

 

[OZZ]

I use Bru'N water as well to treat mash and sparge water only for my water profiles with RO/Distilled water which is all I use.

I always aim for a Ph of 5.4/5.5 as I have found 5.3 Ph or below can mute hop characteristics and produce a much thinner beer mouth feel and taste-wise.
I hit my mash Ph of 5.4/5.5, it always yields the best results for me.

I adjust the Ca/Ma/Na/SO/Cl to dial in the mineral profile for the specific style of beer I am brewing, but the Mash Ph is always targeted for 5.4/5.5.

YMMV.

Interesting. Thanks for the input I'll keep it mind, of course there's a bunch of threads with people claiming they like their IPAs at 5.3 too so maybe I'll start a high and work my way lower if I'm not happy with the results. After all previous to this I wasn't adjusting mash ph at all and was using unfiltered tap water so I'm sure I wasn't hitting low ph numbers

 

[OZZ]

I've tried to use brun water but to be honest the font is so damn small and the boxes are stupid tiny so it irritates me to much to use it lol. Not sure if it's just my wide screen monitor or what but it's a royal pain to use

 

[mabrungard]

I've tried to use brun water but to be honest the font is so damn small and the boxes are stupid tiny so it irritates me to much to use it lol. Not sure if it's just my wide screen monitor or what but it's a royal pain to use

Have you zoomed the view window up in Excel? That does make everything much more visible.

 

[Brew_G]

I've tried to use brun water but to be honest the font is so damn small and the boxes are stupid tiny so it irritates me to much to use it lol. Not sure if it's just my wide screen monitor or what but it's a royal pain to use

Ever used Excel?

 

[OZZ]

I've used excel quite a bit but never had a xls file open and appear as this does. I'm sure I just need to use the view zoom feature. I'll look into it. Thanks!


Anyone else have any thoughts about mash ph being kept above 5.4??

 

[OZZ]

Thanks for the help, the view zoom definitely made brun water calc much more useable. It is quit a bit more complicated than EZ water calc, which isn't necessarily bad but I'm getting very different mash ph estimates from the two calculators and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. My guess is I'm doing something incorrectly in brun since it's more complicated. I'm getting a mash PH of 5.3 in brun and 5.6 in EZ water calc, as far as I can tell I'm entering everything the same:

19lbs 2row
2 lbs Munich
2 lbs carapils
1lbs crystal 40

7.5 gallons mash water (RO), 9 gallons sparge water (RO)

Salt additions gypsum 5.6g mash/ 6.8 sparge (12.4 total), cal chloride 3.8g mash/4.5g sparge (8.3 total), Epsom 1.9g mash/2.3g sparge (4.2 total).

With no acid malt EZ calc gives me 5.6 mash PH brun gives me 5.3

I have no idea what to do because obviously one requires acid additions and one doesn't.

In EZ calc I have water source set at 100% RO in brun there's only a dilution percent that I set to 100%

What gives? I'm hoping to brew Thursday so need to get a handle on the discrepancy

CORRECTION: brun is now giving me 5.4 ph vs EZ water calc 5.6. I had the lovibond of my grains wrong in brun. Still, that's an unreasonable discrepancy between the two water calculators.

When entering everything into a third water calc, the brewers friend calc, I also get a mash ph of approx 5.6 so brun seems to be incorrect for some reason.

 

[mabrungard]

That recipe does have a significant amount of crystal malts (12.5%), so its possible that the pH might be driven low. In addition, the Ca and Mg salt additions are also helping drive the pH down. I'm not seeing anything that suggests that the pH would be 5.6 or higher. The only way to truly find out is to brew and measure pH.

 

[OZZ]

That recipe does have a significant amount of crystal malts (12.5%), so its possible that the pH might be driven low. In addition, the Ca and Mg salt additions are also helping drive the pH down. I'm not seeing anything that suggests that the pH would be 5.6 or higher. The only way to truly find out is the brew and measure pH.

Thanks! I've found a huge number of threads all discussing the discrepancies in the various calculators and believe I have a good game plan. Sounds like brun is the most accurate from people that have used them and taken measurements.

Thanks again everyone for the input on this thread, my knowledge has increased dramatically over this last weeks worth of research.

Gracias!

 

[SlanginDueces]

Best thing to do is measure and adjust!