RIS, bottled, not carbonating.

[mrmarcdee]

I brewed a Russian Imperial Stout (extract, 4.5 gal finishing volume) the middle of December, OG=1.109, FG=1.030. I added about 400ml of bourbon to it in the secondary. I decided to use 1/3 cup of molasses as the priming sugar when I bottled it on January 18th. Bottle are conditioning inside the house at ~68 degrees F. I tried a bottle two weeks from the bottling date and it was barely carbonated, if at all. I tried another after about 3 more weeks and it was still barely carbonated, if at all. It tastes very sweet (very molasses-y I think too), very alcohol-y, and fairly undrinkable. Did I do something wrong with the carbonation? What can I do to fix this?




Thoughts on what I might have done wrong:

Not enough molasses. I used 1/3 cup based on a priming sugar calculator. However later on, I read up a little about other people priming with molasses and most said they used 2/3 to 1 cup.

Adding the bourbon killed the yeast. Seems implausible to me. I used WLP004.

Not waiting long enough on such a high gravity beer. Seems like I should at least have noticed a fair amount of carbonation by now.




Thoughts on what I could do to fix it:

Pop all the bottled, dump into bottling bucket with another batch of boiled priming sugar (corn or cane this time), and rebottle.

Pop a single bottle and add some sugar, or a priming tab, to test it out and recap.

Pop all the bottles and keg it. I do not own a keg or kegging system and am unlikely to purchase one soon, however I may be able to borrow one from a friend...


Thanks

 

[flars]

I would give this beer more time. Check another bottle in a month for carbonation.
The amount of molasses used will produce 1.9 to 2.0 volumes of CO2. This is fairly low and will take time for good head formation.

 

[bobeer]

I've never primed with molasses but it sounds like you just need to wait it out a little longer.

How long did you chill them before you opened a bottle? I know the coldness helps the beer absorb the c02 better so you get a better carb.

 

[Rahahb]

Wait!

Then wait some more. Even if it was carbed at 3 weeks, an RIS won't be getting good at that point anyway.

I had the same problem with a "wee" heavy. 11.5% never carbed. I brewed it over a year ago and the ones I've had are flat as can be. Completely unenjoyable to drink. But I had an idea.

I took 2 12oz bottles and poured them into a PET 1 liter filled with co2. Then I just carbed it for a few days and there you go. Went from disappointment to success.

 

[clickondan]

I was in this exact situation with a 13.5% ABV scotch ale. After 3 months I was sure that the bottles were not going to carb. I was fine waiting it out because I was aging them anyway.

After about 3 months, I rehydrated a packet of EC-1118 as per packet instructions, put 4 drops in each bottle with an eye dropper and re-capped. Everything was boiled/sanitized/rinsed as appropriate of course.

Great bottle carbonation after several weeks and no other issues during or following.

Given that yours was an extract recipe with OG=1.109, FG=1.030 (10.4% ABV), 1/3 cup of molasses at bottling, I'm pretty sure your yeast kicked the bucket (both fully attenuated and reaching their alcohol tolerance) and that there are more than enough fermentable sugars remaining for some EC-1118 to get the job done easily. In fact, you may want to experiment on a couple of bottles first and put them in a plastic tote or something for a couple weeks, somewhere warm, make sure they don't explode and then do the rest of them.

 

[mrmarcdee]

I just read about how refrigeration affects carbonation, interesting. I will definitely let the next bottle I try sit in the fridge for longer.

I figured most people would say to just keep waiting

Rahahb: what is that a picture of?

clickondan: Thanks for the suggestion. What other types of yeast could I try besides EC-1118, just any general wine or champagne yeast?

 

[clickondan]

I'd give you a recommendation if I had one, but unfortunately I don't. EC-1118 is the only very highly tolerant yeast that I know about that won't alter the flavor profile. Maybe that doesn't matter too much anyway just for bottle carbonation purposes, in which case maybe WLP099.

 

[grainbill]

I use champagne yeast for mine, three stage (about 8 weeks) fermentation prior to bottling. Bottle conditioned for 1 yr. It was fantastic.... Did use some black strap molasses in the boil.....

 

[ross_daly]

I'm not sure about the numbers, but doesn't the darker molasses have less fermentability? I wonder how low it goes. Maybe it just wasn't enough fermentable sugar.

 

[mrmarcdee]

I opened up another bottle yesterday, it was about the same, i.e. not carbonated at all. I bought some EC-1118 from the LHBS today. The owner said she used it on some bottles of cider and just sprinkled a little in each bottle with her fingers, as opposed to hydrating and dropper-ing. I want to try it out on one bottle first, to make sure it works well and the bottles don't explode. If I open this yeast packet to do one bottle, can I just roll it down, clip it, and refrigerate it, or will it go bad after a while opened up?

 

[mrmarcdee]

An update for anyone interested, or for future readers. A single test bottle with a sprinkle of champagne yeast showed significantly more carbonation after a week. So yesterday (May 21) I opened every bottle, sprinkled in about a pinch of EC-1118 yeast, added a small amount of sugar (approx 1/4 tsp for 12 oz bottle, 1/2 tsp for 22 oz), and recapped. I will let these sit for at least another month before I open another test bottle, and I will post how it is.

 

[jack_a_roe]

what was the final abv on that bad boy?

 

[mrmarcdee]

what was the final abv on that bad boy?

Around 11.5%.

 

[SFGiantsFan925]

How did this end up working out for you?

I am in theexact same position, where I have a RIS that is at about 11%, and did not carb at ALL in the bottle. I did not add any yeast at bottling time. I bought some EC-1118, and was going to rehydrate with sterile water, add a little sugar, yeast and water all together in the same "cup", then eye dropper the solution into each bottle. That way I can use the same amount in each bottle. I just wanted to see how it went before I go for it.

My RIS has been bottled for about 3 months with no sign of carbonation, and inital yeast used was San Diego Super Yeast - WLP090

 

[uncleleon]

I think with very well aged beers there is simply not enough yeast left or the strain has reached its max alcohol tolerance. For surety I add a small amount of yeast to the bottling bucket sugar addition.

You could dump and reprime (=oxidation). Or you can wait.

Note ec1118 will probably ferment more of the original sugars and you may over carb. Check out the cask and bottle yeast strain

 

[inhousebrew]

I always repitch a half pack of dry US-05 yeast before bottling big beers that have aged for a significant amount of time. That said, last month I bottled a Dopplebock and a Barleywine but the brewshop was closed so I took a chance and low and behold i have no carbonation so I think I'm going to open them up this weekend to re-yeast.

 

[SFGiantsFan925]

Last night, I took 4 bottles of my RIS, and attempted a little "experiment".

I bought a packet of CBC-1 yeast. Its made by Danstar, and its a "Cask & Bottle Conditioned" yeast. It sounded like it was the best option to put into a 11% ABV beer, and ferments in a wide range of temps from 59-77 deg F.
Here is a link to their website showing the details of the yeast:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/cbc-1-cask-bottle-conditioned-beer-yeast

I boiled 1 cup of water for 10 minutes to sterilize, cooled it to 90 degrees F, then added the yeast. I stirred with a sanitized spoon, and let sit for a minute or two. All the yeast looked dissolved. I then added 4 different amounts of the yeast to each bottle. I am trying 4 amounts. I used a small dropper used for measuring infant medication.

The amounts of the liquid rehydrated yeast used were 0.5ml, 1.0ml, 1.5ml, 2.0ml. I recapped all the bottles, with O2 absorbing caps, and then placed into a bucket with a top on it (in case of a random bomb). I am going to let these sit for at least 2-3 weeks and see where I am at, and see how the carbonation has come along.

The beer is starting with little to no carbonation after about 2 months in the bottle. There is a very tiny if any hiss when the cap is removed, and no evidence at all of carbonation in the beer. So, this is my attempt to get some actual carbonation into the beer. I will report back and let you guys know how it goes.

 

[poptarts]

Any time you bottle a 10% + beer just toss in a pack of 1118 or half a pack of cbc-1 into the bottling bucket.

 

[SFGiantsFan925]

Any time you bottle a 10% + beer just toss in a pack of 1118 or half a pack of cbc-1 into the bottling bucket.

I fully understand this. Now. But I didn't, and thats why its not carbed. Everyone keeps saying that, and I realize it now, and its my fault for not doing the proper research prior to bottling, but it doesn't help an already bottled beer. For next time though, thanks!

 

[mrmarcdee]

What I did worked out great. Hope yours works out too.

 

[SFGiantsFan925]

I was going to post a new thread, but I already have history in this thread, so I think it would be easier to follow along.

So, to recap, I bottled a RIS, using priming sugar and no additional yeast. Yeah. I know. Not good.

I added 4 amounts of yeast to 4 bottles, using a dropper. 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 mL of a rehydrated yeast of the CBC-1 yeast.

Just opened the bottles tonight after about 2.5 weeks in the bottle. I tasted all next to each other, with a control bottle with no additional yeast added. Wow, what an experience.

Bottle 1 - Control. No yeast. Tasting very heavy on raisin and roasted flavor. Pretty much what I wanted for the beer. Very thick pour, with great rich flavor. Little carbonation, but seems like more than when I opened one about a month ago.

Bottle 2 - 0.5mL yeast. Somehow the carbonation has totally changed the flavor profile. Pretty good vanilla flavor, with some coffee and roasted flavor. Seems to be the perfect carbonation that I want.

Bottle 3 - 2.0mL yeast. Similar to the 0.5mL bottle, but slightly more muted flavor. Seems like more vanilla, less roast flavor. Carbonation is pretty good, almost like a english mild or brown ale. Not sure I want this level of carbonation, but flavor is good.

The other two? The 1.0 and 1.5mL? Pretty much the same as the 2.0. Did not note a huge difference in the bottles. Biggest difference was from the 0.5 to the 2.0 bottles.

So what am I getting at? Why am I making this post?? Well, its for this question. Do I even need to add yeast to the bottles?? Heres what Im thinking. I had my control bottle. It seemed to be slightly more carbonated than when I opened it about a month ago. Could it be? Could I just leave the rest of the bottles and they will actually get a tiny bit more carbonated? At this point they are just a touch more than racked from secondary into a bottle. So, very little carbonation at all.

I don't want to add yeast to all the other bottles and alter the flavor from what it is. If I do, it would be the least amount of yeast possible.

Here is the million $ question. Is it possible that I could leave the bottles alone, and they would continue to carbonate over the next few months, and I could open a bottle 4 months from now and it would be properly carbonated???

**As a side note, its my understanding that after a berr is bottled, it undergoes a secondary fermentation that then carbonates the beer. And if this happens, then I dont see how it would continue to carbonate over months and months. It seems like it would complete the small fermentation, and the CO2 that was created is made within the first week, and that amount would not increase over months of aging.

Sorry for the long post. Been drinking a bunch of this RIS and another beer, and trying to get my thoughts down on here.

 

[feinbera]

**As a side note, its my understanding that after a berr is bottled, it undergoes a secondary fermentation that then carbonates the beer. And if this happens, then I dont see how it would continue to carbonate over months and months. It seems like it would complete the small fermentation, and the CO2 that was created is made within the first week, and that amount would not increase over months of aging.

The yeast work slowly when they're stressed – and, in 10%+ ABV, at cellar temperatures at or below the usual fermentation range, with very few sugars floating around, they're certainly stressed. Those few cells tough/lucky enough to survive will keep metabolizing sugars as they find them, but they'll take their sweet time about it. This is also why a beer that wasn't quite finished when bottled can seem to have the right level of carbonation when fresh but develop into gushers/bombs over time.

(*cough* go A's! *ahem*)