Rims Tube Fly Sparging : Help me dial in my system / proceedure

[Flomaster]

ok so I have a new to me Bobby_M rims tube and i haven't brewed using it yet. what I am trying to figure out is how to best use this new piece of equipment.

here's my gear: 3 keggles, 2 pumps, 1 rims tube, 1 NG burner:

Mashing in: heat water in HLT to just a few degrees under what I want to mash at using the gas burner. put my desired water to grain ration into the MLT via one pump add grains and start the rims pump and rims tube up.

Mash out / Fly sparge: heat my water using my gas burner to XXX temperature not sure if it needs to be 180ish or close to mash out temps 168ish...
should I go from HLT to pump to Rims tube into the MLT into pump into my boil kettle
or
HLT to Pump to MLT to Rims tube to pump to boil kettle.

I know I want to fly sparge, I know I will be recirculating the entire mash, but its the mashing out / sparging im having trouble with.


what I did before was heat water to 180 and Fly sparge for about 45/60 minutes until I reached my pre-boil volume. if I noticed the water dropping i'd fire up the burner and get it back up. now I never took temperature to see what temp the water was going back into my MLT due to it being a igloo cooler and not wanting to get burned.

I eventually want to get a heating element into my HLT and another PID and temperature probe. end goal is an all electric system. but right now in my current rental house that is not an option. I do have a spa at this house I might be able to piggy back off of...

thanks for looking

-=Jason=-

 

[tootal]

On our RIMS system we have a burner under each keg. Is this your situation? We don't measure water, we heat up our HLT to 10 degrees over our first step temp. We back feed the water into the mash tun and slowly add our malt untill it's all wet and then we end up with an inch or so of water over the mash. We let it sit and soak for 10 minutes and then start the RIMS. We step mash using the RIMS to maintain temp and flame to raise temp.

When sparging we pump hl to the mash as the wort gravity feeds to the kettle. We can regulate the flow with a valve to match rates.

Hope this helps, if not give me more info.

 

[mattd2]

If you go HLT to pump to Rims tube into the MLT into pump into my boil kettle you could heat the sparge water to the mashout temp - then pump through the RIMS tube set at the mashout temp. No need to adjust the water in the HLT to account for cooling, etc. and the water flowing into the MLT should always be where you want it.
What is the elements power in your RIMS tube?

 

[Flomaster]

I only have one burner at the moment and I don't normally direct heat the MLT because i've always used a Igloo cooler until now.

my element in the Rims is a 240V 4500 Watt element running off 110/120V

so Mattd2 your saying I can take my HLT > Pump > Rims > MLT > Pump > BK and use the Rims to heat my water to mash out temps?

going this method would mean I immediately start to sparge and fill my BK at the same time. do you think the small amount of water at say 168 would be enough to raise the entire grain bed to mash out temps? or maybe I just set the rims at say 170/180 ...

next to come is a single tier stand.....

-=Jason=-

 

[mattd2]

I only have one burner at the moment and I don't normally direct heat the MLT because i've always used a Igloo cooler until now.

my element in the Rims is a 240V 4500 Watt element running off 110/120V

so Mattd2 your saying I can take my HLT > Pump > Rims > MLT > Pump > BK and use the Rims to heat my water to mash out temps?

going this method would mean I immediately start to sparge and fill my BK at the same time. do you think the small amount of water at say 168 would be enough to raise the entire grain bed to mash out temps? or maybe I just set the rims at say 170/180 ...

next to come is a single tier stand.....

-=Jason=-

With only 1125W in the rims I would suggest to use it for "fine tuning" only. Heat you sparge water to mash out temp, then pump through the RIMS tube to make sure you have the right temp going into the MLT

 

[Flomaster]

With only 1125W in the rims I would suggest to use it for "fine tuning" only. Heat you sparge water to mash out temp, then pump through the RIMS tube to make sure you have the right temp going into the MLT

OK sounds like a plan to me.
-=Jason=-

 

[mabrungard]

I run a RIMS in much the same fashion as the OP. Preheat mash water in my HLT (or in my kettle in the old days) and then add to the tun. Use the RIMS to fine tune the water temperature prior to mashing in. Since the tun is preheated through this warming, the Thermal Mass of the system can be set to zero in programs like ProMash.

For the mash out step, I use the RIMS to raise the temperature of the mash to mash out temperature. It was a little slow when I used 120v, but is quite rapid now that I use 240v. I heat the sparging water in my HLT (or kettle) to the sparging temperature. I do overheat the sparging water a bit to account for cooling losses, but not too much.

Do use a PID with its temperature sensor located just downstream of the heating element. When performing temperature steps, monitor and maintain the wort temperature at the RIMS tube outlet. Don't rely on the temperature in the tun or you will end up overheating the wort and denaturing the enzymes and/or scorching the wort. I've done that. It takes longer when you limit the wort temp at the RIMS outlet to the desired temperature, but you avoid other problems.

 

[Flomaster]

so my first brew day on this Rig went nothing as planned. one of my Chugger pumps decides to bit the dust. it was barely pumping back up into my boil keggle. I also planned to brew a larger batch than my equipment could handle. 10 gallons of 1.098 OG is not recommended on a Keggle system.

all in all next brew day will be 5-8 gallons of 1.050 - 1.075 OG wort I think and it should be much better after Chugger sends me replacement parts for the pump.

-=Jason=-

 

[Flomaster]

well I have done a second brew on the Rims system using Bobby's False Bottom. so far its a PITA several times throughout the mash I get a stuck mash. I think the pump is pulling suction and compacting my grain bed to much. I think I might have to make a grant and start using that to relieve to suction on the grain bed.

I have my valve on the output of the pump nearly closed and eventually I end up with it wide open because the flow gets so slow from the grains compacting and most likely channeling.


or maybe I'll build this Trombone setup.

-=Jason=-

 

[acidrain]

I use basically the same set up as you guys (no grant). I've had problems with the grain bed compacting too. When that happens and you're not paying attention, scorching the wort is too easy to do (yuk).
I'm currently making a powered stirring rake like the big boys hoping the keep the grains suspended and liquid.
It's frustrating because there doesn't seem to be one grain that doesn't compact over another. It's hit and miss.
One thing I have noticed is the "oatmeal" effect that happens during step mashes. Step mashes especially like to gel and compact.
Anybody see a down side to continuous recirc with agitation? I'm told that as long as the PH is correct, anything is do-able.
BTW, I use a 5500 watt/220 vac element at 110 vac now to help avoid scorching, and I heat the liquor to temp in the HLT for batch sparging.

 

[Flomaster]

I use basically the same set up as you guys (no grant). I've had problems with the grain bed compacting too. When that happens and you're not paying attention, scorching the wort is too easy to do (yuk).
I'm currently making a powered stirring rake like the big boys hoping the keep the grains suspended and liquid.
It's frustrating because there doesn't seem to be one grain that doesn't compact over another. It's hit and miss.
One thing I have noticed is the "oatmeal" effect that happens during step mashes. Step mashes especially like to gel and compact.
Anybody see a down side to continuous recirc with agitation? I'm told that as long as the PH is correct, anything is do-able.
BTW, I use a 5500 watt/220 vac element at 110 vac now to help avoid scorching, and I heat the liquor to temp in the HLT for batch sparging.

this is only my second time using the false bottom and rims tube. last night I got it all setup and did a dry run with 8 gallons of water and measured a 1GPM flow rate and marked my ball valve. now with grains in there that rate might change making my testing worthless. but if the pump is going to pull that hard of a suction compacting my grains no matter what a grant might be my only option unless I build that stir rake setup.

-=Jason=-

 

[mabrungard]

There is no need to insert a trombone or grant in your tun outlet. All you need to do is install a sight glass that is plumbed into the bottom of the tun. Right now, you are throttling the pump output, but you can't tell how much to throttle it and you are placing too much of a draw on the bottom of the bed. Without knowing how much to throttle, you are probably still over pumping the bed.

I find that I can draw the wort level in the sight glass down to almost the bottom of the tun without compacting the bed. Of course, if I place too much of a draw on the bed, the bed will suck air into it through the sight glass. That's not good.

A mash grist initially has a low permeability and I find I have to throttle the pump nearly closed for the first 10 or 15 minutes. But with time, the bed permeability does improve and I can open the valve more. I assume the permeability change has something to do with the extraction of sugar and starch from the grain and dissolving it into the wort.

 

[Flomaster]

There is no need to insert a trombone or grant in your tun outlet. All you need to do is install a sight glass that is plumbed into the bottom of the tun. Right now, you are throttling the pump output, but you can't tell how much to throttle it and you are placing too much of a draw on the bottom of the bed. Without knowing how much to throttle, you are probably still over pumping the bed.

I find that I can draw the wort level in the sight glass down to almost the bottom of the tun without compacting the bed. Of course, if I place too much of a draw on the bed, the bed will suck air into it through the sight glass. That's not good.

A mash grist initially has a low permeability and I find I have to throttle the pump nearly closed for the first 10 or 15 minutes. But with time, the bed permeability does improve and I can open the valve more. I assume the permeability change has something to do with the extraction of sugar and starch from the grain and dissolving it into the wort.

Thanks for the reply I do think I've been starting out with a flow that was to fast next brew I am going to dial it way back and go from there. I would like a sight glass to make filling and measuring the MLT easier. is your sight glass below the false bottom or above it? my false bottom is pretty low I don't think I can get one that low in the keggle if above is fine I might go that route.

-=Jason=-

 

[mattd2]

...Of course, if I place too much of a draw on the bed, the bed will suck air into it through the sight glass. That's not good...

Although this could be a good thing as it would break the suction and not fully compact the grainbed (I have seen some false bottoms destroyed by stuck sparges!)