Ridiculous local brew laws, pro or home?

[Fancy_Pants]

I'm posting this thread here partly because I'm miffed, partly because I am crest fallen, and partly because I'm interested to hear about other weird stuff like this. The last year or so I got really into the idea of starting a brewery as I felt it would be much more rewarding then my current profession as a blue collar tradesman. The excitement behind the idea has been bolstered by a shift in the attitudes of beer drinkers in my city of Calgary (3rd largest city in Canada) drifting towards higher quality beer, an article in a local paper about the demand for more craft beer in the city, and the lack of microbrew presence in the province.

I started kicking up production of my home brews and working on recipes and researching start up costs and equipment, reading articles and forum topics here on the topic of starting and growing breweries. Until I got to an article published only a little earlier this year, giving reason for the lack of micro breweries.

There is a law in Alberta that to get a class E brewing license (the lowest one available) a brewery must be able to produce 250,000L of beer per year within the first 18 months of start up.

To put this into perspective, there are successful micro breweries in the province of Ontario that have been running for 10 years and still haven't hit that volume. What's more, Alberta is the only province in the country with a minimum volume requirement. There's no such thing as getting your feet wet with a nano brewing operation, establishing a brewery in the province I have been raised in most of my life requires an enormous financial investment or winning the lottery. My dream becomes much more plausible if I move. Seems a better option every year.

Opinions?

 

[BigFloyd]

That sounds like a law that got pushed through by the lobby for the large commercial brewers. They'll fight to keep it in place to.

Similar to that is the post-prohibition structure of laws here in Texas ("wet" and "dry" counties/towns) plus the "three tier" setup for distribution. The distributors obviously enjoy their government-created monopoly and lobby hard to preserve it. No wonder Texas is 45th in the U.S. in per capita microbreweries. Pity.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

Not far from the truth. In an interview with one of the more recent breweries that opened here they said people in the province are still stuck on their chains and it requires an enormous amount of advertising gain brand recognition. Even then larger brewers are prone to offering bars and liquor stores incentives to keep competitors out. Alberta again being the only province with deregulated liquor stores. Other provinces have all liquor distributed through the government and you are guaranteed shelf space in every store in the province

 

[TipsyDragon]

In Oklahoma by law you can't homebrew beer above 3.2% ABV. You can brew wine and cider all you want. Luckily the state government has no realistic way of enforcing this restriction.

 

[Nompton]

In Oklahoma by law you can't homebrew beer above 3.2% ABV. You can brew wine and cider all you want. Luckily the state government has no realistic way of enforcing this restriction.

Oklahoma checking in. You can get a license for nothing to homebrew, but it's a dumb process to have to go through.

There are some really good craft breweries in OK (Prairie, Coop, etc), but backwards-ass laws and a oligopolistic distributor network in Oklahoma make starting a micro brewery really, really tough.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Wow. Dude protest that BS. I'm in Ontario and I'm so going to go nano. If I caught wind of a min 250,000 I'd flip out. Also isn't there a brew college in Alberta? Get support from them as it sort of effects their course's marketability

Bull****e lobbyists. I swear. Crap like that does no one any good. I don't want to live in a consumer society. I want our culture to be rich in diy sharing and knowledge and economics.

Be dammed with these monster conglomerates. It's time to wake up and reign in on what's ours for the taking. Stupid government. We need proportional representation as well

 

[pdxal]

Welcome to the realities of starting a brewery, or any business. Laws can be insurmountable. One person isn't likely to change the system.
Many a homebrewer has gotten his/her hopes up on starting their own brewery and found out it isn't so easy. Sorry your hopes were dashed. There are a few threads on here about the difficult realities of starting a nano or microbrewery.
At least for now you and your family/friends can enjoy your homebrew.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

Wow. Dude protest that BS. I'm in Ontario and I'm so going to go nano. If I caught wind of a min 250,000 I'd flip out. Also isn't there a brew college in Alberta? Get support from them as it sort of effects their course's marketability

Bull****e lobbyists. I swear. Crap like that does no one any good. I don't want to live in a consumer society. I want our culture to be rich in diy sharing and knowledge and economics.

Be dammed with these monster conglomerates. It's time to wake up and reign in on what's ours for the taking. Stupid government. We need proportional representation as well

Some of the microbreweries like alleykat are trying to sway some kind of change to the laws in the government, lack of a local brew scene hurts all breweries in the province as the concept of local brew is foreign and people are less likely to put down a kokanee and pick up a real beer. I heard about a brewing class opening in Old's college. Old's being a Town with a population of less than 10,000 people half way between Edmonton or Calgary. I doubt it is a course that's going to award any substantial degree.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

Welcome to the realities of starting a brewery, or any business. Laws can be insurmountable. One person isn't likely to change the system.
Many a homebrewer has gotten his/her hopes up on starting their own brewery and found out it isn't so easy. Sorry your hopes were dashed. There are a few threads on here about the difficult realities of starting a nano or microbrewery.
At least for now you and your family/friends can enjoy your homebrew.

I wouldn't say dashed, perhaps delayed. I decided long ago I'd move to British Columbia one day where lots of micro breweries are springing up. First brewery tour I ever went on was in Penticton when I was 10. Tin Whistle brewery was run out of a 2 story house next to the laundry mat we used while vacationing for the summer. As an adult and huge beer fan I can safely say they make phenomenal beer even today, if you ever see a bottle of Killer Bee be sure to pick it up. For now I'll just hone my craft. I plan on switching to kegs in the new year because it seems like so much less work then cleaning out bottles. Also I have a Red Seal journeyman ticket, I can ply my trade as a journeyman in any province without having to take any tests.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Some of the microbreweries like alleykat are trying to sway some kind of change to the laws in the government, lack of a local brew scene hurts all breweries in the province as the concept of local brew is foreign and people are less likely to put down a kokanee and pick up a real beer. I heard about a brewing class opening in Old's college. Old's being a Town with a population of less than 10,000 people half way between Edmonton or Calgary. I doubt it is a course that's going to award any substantial degree.

It's Niagara college's sister course, and Niagara is got a very strong system with theirs.

People are cheap, and if you give them a cheap alternative based on price per volume with good management you can survive and grow, but not with that ****ing law. That's total bull****, and I'm ashamed to hear about it coming out of Alberta, which boasts to be the less red tape province or most american in the sense of free market values.

That law has to die.

 

[Epimetheus]

Agreed, that law should be changed. In the meantime...

Is there any way you could call yourself something other than a "brewery"? The law applies only to that word. How about brew pub or some other term? It might be easier to introduce a new category to the set of laws. Like, creating a term "micro brewery" and adding an amendment to the law.

You have a pretty good argument that the existing law encourages drinking by requiring such a massive amount of alcohol production.

You have a chance, in contrast to Utah which is a dead loss. I think the only place more restrictive than Utah is Saudi Arabia.

--- edit ---
I take it back about Utah. If the newspaper can print an article "More Utah women learning to brew beer at home", there is hope. Even for Alberta. Gotta love a place with a brew club named "Barley's Angels"

 

[Blarneybrew]

Nah, you're best to jus vanish it. Make media fanfare, and get the college and the college newspaper and radio (if they have one) involved, and the CBC. It's a provincial matter and all it takes is an amendment to pass. The politics aren't that impenetrable in my opinion, but you start through the media and as well by making it your mission. These type of laws are unethical to the freedom of humanity. The decline of upward mobility in this country is in part due to restrictions like these.

The meat industry to an uneccessary blow as well. Knocking down small operators in place of big corp factory and subsidized migrant workers. All for some politicians to get a kick back and save some bucks and responsibility on hiring inspectors

I can promise that any chance I get I will be raising the issue. In fact I'll write to the party in power shortly

 

[TheJasonT]

While that Canadian law is quite stupid...

I leave for you the Florida growler law...

We can buy and be sold 32oz and 128oz growlers...

But not the industry standard 64oz.

Nope, not at all.

And it's the AB distributors that are fighting back against getting it changed. MillerCoors doesn't seem to care. Pretty lame if I do say so myself.

 

[brewskisteve]

There has to be a way around it, there are other micros up there that already are established and never hit those numbers. Hopefully it's just a formality of the law they do not enforce. I would ask the ownerships how they got by it. Hopefully there's an owner or two that's willing to take you in under their wing and open their knowledge of ownership up to ya. Keep your head up and stay determined.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Perhaps there's a minimum tax based on that 250,000 volume to be paid?

 

[MyFriendsCallMeWhiskers]

I was out in Regina last week with co-workers at our favorite place there...Bushwakkers, kick ass joint for craft beer and food. I've always wondered why Calgary has nothing like that, seems like it would take off, especially with places like Craft and National doing so well. Good luck, I know I'd be a keen supporter of some local craft brew!

 

[invivoSaccharomyces]

There is a law in Alberta that to get a class E brewing license (the lowest one available) a brewery must be able to produce 250,000L of beer per year within the first 18 months of start up.

It doesn't seem say you have to sell that much beer. So take 250,000L of water, toss in a hop leaf, a barley seed, and a drop of yeast. Call it beer, then dump it. Or better yet, use it for showers, brewing water, water balloon fights, whatever.

 

[Zamial]

It doesn't seem say you have to sell that much beer. So take 250,000L of water, toss in a hop leaf, a barley seed, and a drop of yeast. Call it beer, then dump it. Or better yet, use it for showers, brewing water, water balloon fights, whatever.

Beat me to it! This is the answer.

 

[MalFet]

There is a law in Alberta that to get a class E brewing license (the lowest one available) a brewery must be able to produce 250,000L of beer per year within the first 18 months of start up.

To put this into perspective, there are successful micro breweries in the province of Ontario that have been running for 10 years and still haven't hit that volume. What's more, Alberta is the only province in the country with a minimum volume requirement. There's no such thing as getting your feet wet with a nano brewing operation, establishing a brewery in the province I have been raised in most of my life requires an enormous financial investment or winning the lottery. My dream becomes much more plausible if I move. Seems a better option every year.

Opinions?

By my reading, it's actually 500k liters: http://www.aglc.gov.ab.ca/pdf/liquor/5233.pdf You don't need to actually produce it, but you do need a significant fermentation capacity to demonstrate "capacity".

Would you consider a brewpub license? Those are quite a bit less onerous, and it's very hard to survive as a nano- without a tasting room anyway. For that, you only need 1000L worth of fermentation capacity to get there, with each tank at 200L or more. That's still quite a bit, but it's a much more accessible range.

 

[Demon]

250,000l is approximately 2100bbl, spread over 18 months is 116bbl/mo.

Even on a small 3.5bbl system it is workable, but hard. On a 7bbl system doing double turns that's only brewing two days a week.

 

[Clonefan94]

It doesn't seem say you have to sell that much beer. So take 250,000L of water, toss in a hop leaf, a barley seed, and a drop of yeast. Call it beer, then dump it. Or better yet, use it for showers, brewing water, water balloon fights, whatever.

Except usually you have to pay your taxes on beer produced, not beer sold?

 

[Psycotte]

Why not look to open a brew pub?

http://www.aglc.ca/pdf/liquor/5234.pdf

Seems a much easier standard to meet and you can still sell your beer.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

Agreed, that law should be changed. In the meantime...

Is there any way you could call yourself something other than a "brewery"? The law applies only to that word. How about brew pub or some other term? It might be easier to introduce a new category to the set of laws. Like, creating a term "micro brewery" and adding an amendment to the law.

You have a pretty good argument that the existing law encourages drinking by requiring such a massive amount of alcohol production.

You have a chance, in contrast to Utah which is a dead loss. I think the only place more restrictive than Utah is Saudi Arabia.

--- edit ---
I take it back about Utah. If the newspaper can print an article "More Utah women learning to brew beer at home", there is hope. Even for Alberta. Gotta love a place with a brew club named "Barley's Angels"

Well the main problem being there isn't really any distinction. You need a brewing license to brew beer for retail, otherwise it would be illegal to sell in any format. This is the main reason our province has only 11 micro breweries and 7 brewpubs while BC with it's more relaxed brewing laws and smaller population has 39 microbreweries and like 20 brewpubs. And for my money, some of the best beer I've had comes from there from the likes of Granville Island brewery and Tree brewing. If you get tree products in a store near you, be sure to check out their DIPA, it's the best I've ever had.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

There has to be a way around it, there are other micros up there that already are established and never hit those numbers. Hopefully it's just a formality of the law they do not enforce. I would ask the ownerships how they got by it. Hopefully there's an owner or two that's willing to take you in under their wing and open their knowledge of ownership up to ya. Keep your head up and stay determined.

Well most of the articles I have found on the subject are exactly that struggle, the newest brewers have to get a massive space and set up a sizable brewing operation and try to move that huge volume being totally new to the market and the public. If you google village brewing in calgary you can find an article about them, it shows a picture of their brewery and they just set up shop 2 years ago. All in.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

I was out in Regina last week with co-workers at our favorite place there...Bushwakkers, kick ass joint for craft beer and food. I've always wondered why Calgary has nothing like that, seems like it would take off, especially with places like Craft and National doing so well. Good luck, I know I'd be a keen supporter of some local craft brew!

Your right, Craft opened and I loved going there for about the first month when everyone found it. Now there's line ups to get in unless your there at like 2pm on a weekday. National is very much the same, although they do have a better seating arrangement and seem to accommodate more. My favorite place these days is Beer Revolution which has like 25 constantly rotating handles so the beer list is different every week. When they run out of one cask, they tap something different. That said we do have a few brew pubs in town, brewster's being the big one. Vegabond just opened recently, i haven't been there yet but the people I know who have were quite underwhelmed. Minha's brewery also opened up a brewpub but I can't bring myself to go to the brewpub of the company that makes boxer beer.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

It doesn't seem say you have to sell that much beer. So take 250,000L of water, toss in a hop leaf, a barley seed, and a drop of yeast. Call it beer, then dump it. Or better yet, use it for showers, brewing water, water balloon fights, whatever.

I haven't got around to reading about the quality requirements yet but even so, if you are renting a building and using that much water and natural gas among other ingredients and not turning a profit I don't know how you'd last through the year without incurring massive debt.

 

[Fancy_Pants]

By my reading, it's actually 500k liters: http://www.aglc.gov.ab.ca/pdf/liquor/5233.pdf You don't need to actually produce it, but you do need a significant fermentation capacity to demonstrate "capacity".

Would you consider a brewpub license? Those are quite a bit less onerous, and it's very hard to survive as a nano- without a tasting room anyway. For that, you only need 1000L worth of fermentation capacity to get there, with each tank at 200L or more. That's still quite a bit, but it's a much more accessible range.

Well I'm haven't read through the legal garbage personally but in the newspaper articles I have read you have to have the capacity when you apply for the permit and you have to show you can produce that much within 18 months. I'm trusting the reporters did good research.

A brewpub seems a much taller order for me just because while I know the ins and outs of making beer, I have no knowledge of running a restaurant and I live in a city where new restaurants seem to change hands as often as one changes their underwear. I will find a way to do it, I plan on being fully equipped with as much knowledge and research as possible about the laws and marketing and everything by the time I have to money to start any kind of business.

 

[benj]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the minimum production laws were just repealed. Hoping to see more craft beer in Alberta now

 

[MindenMan]

Sorry for what? That's good news!

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

awesome news guys in CA!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/189621024/Classe-Final-Recommendations-20131204

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

awesome news guys in CA!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/189621024/Classe-Final-Recommendations-20131204

 

[JohnSand]

Seems the problem is solved. But let me add that New York State, a famously difficult place to open or operate business, is actively encouraging microbreweries. And I think it can be explained by one word: revenue. Beer is taxed at every step, craft brewing is growing by leaps and bounds, Albany wants a cut. So if you petition change, let the elected know what's in it for them: more jobs, thriving small business, and most of all, TAX MONEY!

 

[rico567]

These threads come along from time to time, and generally read the same. Being upset about federal/state/local ordinances is a waste of energy. When the 18th Amendment was repealed by the 21st in 1933, it did not simply open the door to alcohol production at will. Crucial to repeal was the principle of "local option" which it left it up to states, on down to counties or even the smallest municipalities how they would address production/sale/consumption of alcohol. And -you guessed it- that means there's a different bureaucracy at every level of government waiting to shove a pile of forms, and fees, fees, and more fees at you. A local micro that's just starting its second year was very well planned and thought through, had a lawyer as one of the three partners guiding every step of the startup, and they were still held up six months beyond their projected opening.

If someone wants to change this, the best way to start is probably not to call them "stupid." There is a process for change, however dim* the prospects for success. Either try to change the way government administers alcohol, or follow the steps required in your locality to legalize your commercial brewing operation.

* I state that the prospects are "dim" because government at different levels has counted on revenue from alcohol production (well, except for the years 1919-1933), and regulating the industry and collecting the taxes requires a bureaucracy, and all bureaucracies are completely invulnerable when it comes to their procedures. You will jump through all the hoops, because that's how bureaucrats justify their existence.

 

[crawforc3]

(1) The brewpub premises must be located in an historic building or site as defined in Section 40-8-1, in a wet county or wet municipality, in which county beer was brewed for public consumption prior to the ratification of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1919.

http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/28-4A-3.htm



What?

 

[JohnSand]

Wow.