Reusing 1084 for a Brown Ale

[TinyBubblesDub]

So I have never transfered beer from a fermenter and poured fresh wort on the yeast to ferment again.

I have a oatmeal stout that is about to finish fermenting via Wyeast 1084 (irish ale) and I am going to brew a Nut Brown Ale (modified Newcastle clone.)

Would it be better to reuse this yeast, or to pitch with a dry packet of Notty?

 

[SD-SLIM]

So I have never transfered beer from a fermenter and poured fresh wort on the yeast to ferment again.

I have a oatmeal stout that is about to finish fermenting via Wyeast 1084 (irish ale) and I am going to brew a Nut Brown Ale (modified Newcastle clone.)

Would it be better to reuse this yeast, or to pitch with a dry packet of Notty?

Hello...it depends on your desire to have flavors from prior beer transferred to your Newcastle (which I thought was made with two different kinds of beers), if this isnt an issue go for it...if it is, then you can either wash the yeast or go with your dry yeast! Hope it turns out well..Happy Brewing!

 

[AmandaK]

I'd wash it and go for it. 1084 is a pretty clean yeast and Newcastle doesn't have much yeast character.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Would it really make much of a difference if there was a slight amount of the oatmeal stout in the bottom? does the trub infuse off flavors?

I have never washed yeast before, so maybe its easy, but it seems like pouring the wort on the old yeast cake is wayyyy easier.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to reuse the yeast now though. If I just pour it on top do I need to shake up the fermenter to get oxygen in the concoction? or is there already enough yeast to get to work?

 

[AmandaK]

Yes. Wash it.

1) Why take all that time coming up with a recipe for a beer, then brewing it, only to ferment it half-a**ed??
2) Newcastle is a light beer, it'll pick up the colors and flavors of an oatmeal stout quicker than another stout would.
3) You'll be over pitching by A LOT if you just pitch on the cake. Again, why do everything else right and then go lax on the fermentation?

Yeast Washing Illustrated
Mr. Malty Pitching Rate Calculator
Mr. Malty <-- Jamil has a TON of info on yeast/yeast health/strain info in case you were wondering.

 

[SD-SLIM]

Would it really make much of a difference if there was a slight amount of the oatmeal stout in the bottom? does the trub infuse off flavors?

I have never washed yeast before, so maybe its easy, but it seems like pouring the wort on the old yeast cake is wayyyy easier.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to reuse the yeast now though. If I just pour it on top do I need to shake up the fermenter to get oxygen in the concoction? or is there already enough yeast to get to work?

You should wash your yeast...simple process, here is a good video for it: http://billybrew.com/yeast-washing

Remember that the trub will contain healthy yeast along with, fats, old hops, etc...so all you really want to re-use is yeast. Now the first time I did a yeast wash, I was so frightened that I would loose good yeast or just plain screw it up...but after doing it, I realized it was just pouring liquid!

 

[cimirie]

I'll be the voice for the opposition - maybe. If you siphon off the vast majority of the stout, I'm a huge fan of pitching on a cake.

Traditionally, the rule of thumb for using a yeast cake is: is the 2nd beer darker and higher abv than the first. If yes, go cake. If they are close, maybe dump some of the yeast out and still go cake. If no, wash and reuse.

Don't get me wrong, I often wash and save yeast. But, why go through that work?

Here's the catch: you said your brown was "kind of" a Newcastle clone. I consider Newcastle to be an extremely light and delicate brown. If Your recipe truly falls into that pattern, the richer flavors of the stout will come through your product. Probably not a lot, but likely noticeable.

If, however, your use of Newcastle was more convenient than descriptive and your brown is hartier, maltier and richer than Newcastle, I'd say go for it.

 

[BillyBroas]

Don't get me wrong, I often wash and save yeast. But, why go through that work?

Because if you want to make the best beer possible, that's what you do.

Every brewers has to ask themselves how much work they are willing to put in and set their expectations accordingly.

Can you make good beer without ever using a starter? Sure. Will you make the best beer possible? No.

Can you make good beer by shake-aerating your 1.090 imperial stout in the carboy? Sure. Will you make the best beer possible? No, you should inject O2.

If you're fine not making the best beer possible because you want to cut corners, that's totally fine, I do it often. But if you're someone who wants to make beers that really stand out above the rest, that's why we teach these techniques.

 

[cimirie]

Pitching onto a yeast cake is a tried and true method that many brewers employ. Many great brewers. Hell, I was listening to a podcast the other day and Palmer was advocating it.

Yes, it takes considerably less time than washing. But its not a corner to cut. Its a method to acheive a large viable cell count to quickly get your wort into active fermentation.

If you're careful to remove as much of the 1st beer as possible and you are pitching a darker (or roughly same) character of wort, the flavor contribution is negligible.

I firmly disagree that any one particular process makes a better beer in all situations. That O2 you talked about can make a good bit of difference in fermentation. BUT it's been my experience (and as it is my favorite style, I am infinitely harsh) that that same RIS you talked about would come out much better after being shaken to aerate if pitched onto a yeast cake than the same beer given a shot of O2 and a standard yeast starter.

There is no "best method." No two gold medal winners have the exact same process. You can make "the best beer possible" using various methods. Plus, I'd hazard a guess that since the OP is asking a question about a fairly common procedure, he's still learning some basic principles, concerned with making a really tasty beer and not consumed with that "pursuit of the perfect beer" mentality. Dissuading him from acquiring knowledge he can experiment with to decide on his own "best method" is somewhat of a disservice.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Traditionally, the rule of thumb for using a yeast cake is: is the 2nd beer darker and higher abv than the first. If yes, go cake. If they are close, maybe dump some of the yeast out and still go cake. If no, wash and reuse.

Here's the catch: you said your brown was "kind of" a Newcastle clone. I consider Newcastle to be an extremely light and delicate brown. If Your recipe truly falls into that pattern, the richer flavors of the stout will come through your product. Probably not a lot, but likely noticeable.

If, however, your use of Newcastle was more convenient than descriptive and your brown is hartier, maltier and richer than Newcastle, I'd say go for it.

My clone is darker and slightly maltier (how I like it, not true to the original) but it is certainly lighter than the oatmeal stout. Although the stout is made with the same DME and the specialty grains overlap in one place.

Plus, I'd hazard a guess that since the OP is asking a question about a fairly common procedure, he's still learning some basic principles, concerned with making a really tasty beer and not consumed with that "pursuit of the perfect beer" mentality.

Haha, you got me. Although I am shooting to make a perfect beer, but am happy ending up with just a tasty one


Although after reading this, I am going to wash the cake to create more yeast to use in future oatmeal stouts and brown ales.

 

[BillyBroas]

Pitching onto a yeast cake is a tried and true method that many brewers employ. Many great brewers. Hell, I was listening to a podcast the other day and Palmer was advocating it.

Of course you can make good beer that way, which is what I said. I preach more than anyone that there's more than one way to skin a cat in brewing. But when we have facts for why we do things a certain way, we should explain them to newer brewers (like the OP) and not assume they aren't willing to put in the work.

So to the OP, to back up what I was saying, you wash your yeast get a healthy crop of yeast and remove the dead yeast cells, fats, proteins, and hop particles that could lead to off-flavors in future batches. It also allows you to accurately measure the amount of yeast you are pitching so you don't overpitch.

Although after reading this, I am going to wash the cake to create more yeast to use in future oatmeal stouts and brown ales.

Good call. It will save you some $$$ too.

 

[SD-SLIM]

Because if you want to make the best beer possible, that's what you do.

Every brewers has to ask themselves how much work they are willing to put in and set their expectations accordingly.

Can you make good beer without ever using a starter? Sure. Will you make the best beer possible? No.

Can you make good beer by shake-aerating your 1.090 imperial stout in the carboy? Sure. Will you make the best beer possible? No, you should inject O2.

If you're fine not making the best beer possible because you want to cut corners, that's totally fine, I do it often. But if you're someone who wants to make beers that really stand out above the rest, that's why we teach these techniques.

Billyboas very nicely written, I agree we decide between good and great beer!

Pitching onto a yeast cake is a tried and true method that many brewers employ. Many great brewers. Hell, I was listening to a podcast the other day and Palmer was advocating it.

Yes, it takes considerably less time than washing. But its not a corner to cut. Its a method to acheive a large viable cell count to quickly get your wort into active fermentation.

If you're careful to remove as much of the 1st beer as possible and you are pitching a darker (or roughly same) character of wort, the flavor contribution is negligible.

I firmly disagree that any one particular process makes a better beer in all situations. That O2 you talked about can make a good bit of difference in fermentation. BUT it's been my experience (and as it is my favorite style, I am infinitely harsh) that that same RIS you talked about would come out much better after being shaken to aerate if pitched onto a yeast cake than the same beer given a shot of O2 and a standard yeast starter.

There is no "best method." No two gold medal winners have the exact same process. You can make "the best beer possible" using various methods. Plus, I'd hazard a guess that since the OP is asking a question about a fairly common procedure, he's still learning some basic principles, concerned with making a really tasty beer and not consumed with that "pursuit of the perfect beer" mentality. Dissuading him from acquiring knowledge he can experiment with to decide on his own "best method" is somewhat of a disservice.

Cimirie I agree that shot's of O2 isnt necessary, I have read several articles about how they are finding no difference between shaken wort and O2 injected wort...but does it hurt to do it, no!
I do disagree with using yeast cake as a standard for a few reasons....1) If you are making a different beer then those flavors transfer, which in most cases could be very little for a simple beer 2) If you screwed up making that beer, those imperfections transfer 3) Yeast multiply, so if you accurately pitched your yeast, your next batch would be over pitched.
But in the end, if it works for you and you make beers you love than ignore everything I just said!

TinyBubblesDub....in the end hear the feedback, make your choice and continue to read and experiment, because we are all in the pursuit of the perfect beer!

 

[SD-SLIM]

Also since Palmer was quoted, here is a great online reference for your future brews: http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html

 

[BillyBroas]

TinyBubblesDub....in the end hear the feedback, make your choice and continue to read and experiment, because we are all in the pursuit of the perfect beer!

Well put.

As far as the yeast cake thing, Bob said it better than I ever could: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

Key quote:

Knocking out onto a yeast cake is never a good idea. It is - outside of a very, very few specific instances listed below - always over-pitching.

Many amateur brewers report acceptable results by this practice. That's fine, and I applaud their success. Their success does not excuse that this is bad brewing practice. [Author's note: I categorically refuse to argue with anyone about this. If you practice this and have success, I wish you all the success and enjoyment in the world. Better and more knowledgeable brewers and brewing scientists than you or I could ever be support what follows. If you can bring to bear some significant data from the field of brewing science which indicates otherwise, please send it to me; I like the taste of crow when I deserve it. Otherwise, please don't cloud the issue.]

Even though there are many ways to make great beer, there is such a thing as Best Practices.

Edit: The O2 thing was a bad example, but I think you guys know what I was getting at: proper aeration is important.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Thanks for all the good info guys.

Yeah I am not trying to argue for any certain way, washing seems great cause you only need to do it once for each strain. It sounds like you can just use one jar to create more via a starter if you want; as long as you keep temperature/sanitation seriously to avoid mutations.