Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

[CvilleKevin]

I get juice from a low fertilizer orchard, and it will usually go down to 1.002 or so on its own with ale yeast. Sometime a little higher. But juice I used to get from other orchards could get down to 0.998 no problem with ale yeast if I didnt stop it in time.

With juice from non fertilized trees, it would probably stop a little higher on its own. How much, I dont know. But I know for a fact that S04 and US05 will easily take it down to 0.998 if there enough nutrient there, even when starting SG is above 1.060. WLP041 might stop a little higher and not sure about the others.

One consideration if the yeast stop on their own above 1.000 due to nutrient reduction, then adding priming sugar is not going to help much, because the yeast wont be able to do much with the extra sugar if there is no nutrient. You may get some carb, but it will probably take a while

One of the advantages of having your own trees is that in theory the nutrient levels ought to be fairly consistent from year to year, so if you find a yeast that you like and it stops out on its own at say 1.004, then next year you could bottle at 1.006 before its done and let the yeast carb while it is finishing out

These days I am sulfiting about half of my batches and setting those aside to last through the next summer. I am really looking forward to drinking some fresh unsulfited cider, which I should have ready in a few days. One thing I've noticed in the past couple of years is that the juice that is pressed late in the season tends to turn more quickly if it is not sulfited. The early season stuff lasts fairly long regardless. I suppose that is due to slightly more spoilage when the apples are sitting in storage for several months after being harvested, so cider goes funky faster if not sulfited

 

[GatineauBrewer]

Hi all. New member. Super grateful to the Cville man (you must be immune to all the "thanks" by now!) and other posters. Here's my bit to this thread.

Juiced approx. 90 lbs of Paula Red and Lobo fresh-picked apples (= almost 5 gallons or 23 litres).
Added 5.67 litres (1.25 gal.) of fresh-pressed, organic cranberry juice (unpasteurized).
Added 1kg dark demarara sugar and 2 cups white sugar (=1.065).
Added 3.5 crushed Campden tablets.
Added 1Tbsp pectic enzyme.
--- Waited 48hrs ---
Day1:
Racked in glass carboy (leaving a whole lot of bit and pieces behind, in the bucket).
Prepped Lalvin 1118 (in a mix of warm bottled water, a little of the apple juice, trace amounts of yeast nutrient and yeast energizer) - waited 30 minutes for frothiness and dumped in the pail.
Added half tsp of yeast nutrient.
Bung+airlock.
Temp constant at 19C (66F)
4 hrs later: bubbling -steady slow pace.
24 hrs later: bubbling -steady rapid pace.
48 hrs later: foamy crud spills over from airlock. No biggie, bung holds tight.
6 days later: steady pace, but much slower; SG reading 1.0165.
8 days later: same slow but steady bubbling: SG reading 1.0140.
9 days later: slower but still steady bubbling: SG reading 1.012.
Immediately put the carboy in my chest freezer -highest freeze setting- for two hours. Noticeably "syropy" juice consistency.
Removed carboy from freezer and put in dedicated fridge (highest setting) for 2 days.
Reracked (carefully leaving behind leas and such). SG reading: 1.011 (damn it!) and returned to fridge for another 3 days.
Another SG reading: 1.008 (oh gawd!!). Bottled immediately: 4x500ml plastic brewing bottles with plastic screwcaps and 42x500ml swingtop bottles. To each bottle, I added one third tsp. dextrose + one third tsp. xylitol... to both carbonate, and add sweetness, respectively. Liquid level was deliberately left under the neck of bottles. Plastic bottles were squeezed to push out all air (those are my "test" bottles).
Left out to stew (temp: 20C or 68F).
Day1 after bottling -no noticeable difference.
Day 2: plastic bottles pushed out to normal shape, but soft.
Day 3: plastic bottles hard.
Day 4 (today): Plastic bottles hard. Opened one: noticeable "pshhht" sound. Tastes fizzy. Tonight I try the stove-top pasteurization.
End of story.
Moral of the story? Don't try to cold crash Lalvin 1118. It just won't stop!!!
Meanwhile... another 6.5 gallon batch started yesterday; this time, using S-04 in 115 lbs of Cortland, Spartan and MacIntosh. We'll see.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I'm glad that so many folks are finding this thread useful! I've definitely learned a lot from everyone who has contributed.

I got my first juice of the season a couple of weeks ago. The mix was Cortland, Gala and Jonathan, which has become my early season mix of choice. One of these days, I'm hoping to add some Hewes Crab to this mix as a few orchards around here have planted them but no one is selling them yet.

The SG was 1.057, which is the highest that I've ever got from an early season mix. Partly that is because it was a dry summer and partly its because now that the orchard where I get my juice is making their own hard cider, they are letting the apples hang on the trees a little longer. I still bumped it with 3oz/gal of turbinado/dextrose mix, which turned out to be a good thing because even with the extra sugar, these batches fermented out really fast.

I did two batches each of Brupaks and Wy3056 (sufited & non sulfited), non sufited BRY97 and a sulfited Notty batch. The weather for the past two weeks has been great for fermenting. By opening the basement windows at night, I was able to keep temps between 62F and 66F, which is a good range.

This batch still fermented out really fast and I crashed them all after 9 days. Last year, same juice from same trees and same temps fermented out in 12-13 days. The main difference seems to be the starting SG of the raw juice, because in both years I bumped the SG up to about 1.065 before pitching the yeast - I just had to use more sugar last year. So its possible that the higher sugar content seems to be correlated to higher nutrient level in the fruit (given same trees). I called the orchard to see if maybe they had fertilized this year, and they did apply some phosphorus and potash this year, but no nitrogen. Last year they didnt add anything. So either the phosphorus and/or potash has a similar effect on the yeast as nitrogen, or the same process that concentrates sugars in the fruit is also concentrating nutrient

Go to sleep yeasties... nothing but dreams now.

One of the batches, the sulfited WY3056 batch, would just not shut down. It blew the bung out of the carboy twice.

Back into secondaries and clearing at room temperature, all of the batches except the sulfited WY3056 batch seem fairly stable. The six on the right are the ones from this season, right after the crash

Unsurprisingly, the sulfited WY3056 batch started back up after a day. I'll need to throw that one back in the fridge. Its not unusually for the WY3056 to need two crashes to stop in the beginning of the season

 

[motobrewer]

Picking up 10g of a "Gingergold, McIntosh, Cortland, Mollies and a few Honeycrisp" blend.

We'll see how it goes. US04.

 

[motobrewer]

juice was pretty low sg (1.044) so in one I added cane to get to 1.053, and the other I added honey to get to the same.

US04 for both.

 

[GatineauBrewer]

Just wanted to finish my initial post (3 posts higher).
... So I've decided I'm going to do the "stove-top" pasteurization on my batch of swing-top-bottled, Lalvin1118 yeasted, fresh-pressed cider and pure cranberry juice (4:1 ratio). Recall that my 5 gallon batch was at 1.008, and moving downwards, even while in the fridge, at highest 'cold' setting...
- I filled two very large pots of water and put them to boil on stove. I also filled the kettle and got that going;
- Meanwhile, I was able to fit 32 of 44 of the flip-top bottles in my camping cooler (you know, rectangular, plastic, usually keeps things cold). I put the cooler in the bath tub and filled with hot water (as hot as it would get from tap), right up to the neck of the bottles, so bottles would already be hot by the time the "near-boiling" water would be poured over them;
- When the stove-top pot-water got boiling (temp. approx. 212F) I turned stove off and had a smoke outside. Came back, it was at 192F (pretty good timing, I thought I drained the hot water in the cooler and poured both pots (and the kettle) over the bottles... and I shut the cooler door;
- 10 minutes later (exactly), I took out the bottles one by one (I"m wearing huge oven mitts, protective glasses and my winter coat!). Temp of water in cooler was still 154F;
- Remaining 12 bottles (12 of 44), I repeated the procedure in pots of water.
- Stored 32 in the garage, kept 12 in the fridge.

Now, I should state: Before I started this, I did not feel good about the whole thing.... despite the very good thread on this site that describes the procedure in detail.
For one, I had drunk three bottles of the cider before starting... it tasted freakin' awesome! and I didn't want anything about it to change.
Honestly... I was half convinced that "near-boiling" my hard-won liquid-gold was going to ruin it (people say, when brewing "above all, keep an even temperature if you want good results").
WELL! The very next day, I had one from the fridge... "POP!" -really good fizz... and I kid-you-not, it tasted EVEN BETTER!! No joke. I'm sold on the stove-top method. It works... really well!
Mind you, there is a very, very thin, barely noticeable "dusting" at bottom of bottles (you have to look very hard). Those are leas (dead yeast cells) if I'm not mistaken.
Had a couple friends over to indulge -they are super impressed. I am a BREWING GOD!
All credit goes to posters on this site who've shared... and some basic common sense too, I guess.
THANK YOU!

 

[szajsiwo]

GatineauBrewer,

My fresh experience with stove top pasteurization is not as positive as yours.
I've pasteurized with this method samples (2 bottles) of every 3 different yeast testing batches S-04 (@1.026), US-05 (@1.022) and WLP041 (@1.028). Everything went well but the final taste is definitely worse than that before pasteurization (which is very tasty). I didn't want to finish the bottle - it is hard to describe but it is almost not drinkable...
I don't know why we get such different results but there are some thoughts:
- I'm using pure fresh pressed cider, no juice from other fruits
- I didn't cold crash - just racked to bottles just as it is
- my bottling final gravity was higher

I'm not sure but maybe the reason is that the yeasts processed by high temperature left some off taste which does not occur after cold carshing?

 

[GatineauBrewer]

Thanks for connecting, szajsiwo. Interesting experience.
Yes, when I tested a few bottles, before pasteurizing à la stove-top method, it tasted really, really good. I'm not an expert taster, so I can't really describe the taste using the right terms... It did have a slight yeasty aftertaste, but very slight.
After pasteurization however, it seemed to have "melded" the flavours better (apple and cranberry), the tartness stayed the same (which I like), and the yeasty aftertaste had disappeared. I was so happy with the results! (I'm a usual consumer of Blackthorne and Strongbow ciders, but I'd take my homemade wonder-brew first, at this point). Having said that, "awesome" to me may just be "ok" for a super cider connoisseur?

Just to confirm, you didn't re-rack after primary fermentation? Just straight to bottles? That would leave a lot of yeast floating about... But then again you said it tasted good at that point.
You know, there is another difference: I was using Lalvin 1118 (a champagne yeast), while you were using ale yeasts, if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe that makes a difference too? I really can't say, not having replicated this with other yeasts.

I have another batch fermenting now, with S-04 this time. Only apples. I don't think I would try the same method. Bottle-carbonation would be pretty iffy, given that cold-crashing/re-racking with S-04 seems to effectively halt fermentation in most instances. How would I then bottle-carbonate?
That means trying forced-carbonation. And that means spending some $$ on a Corny Keg, a C02 tank, and picnic tap... which is starting to make this a pretty expensive "hobby". Which makes me wonder: how did CvilleKevin get his hands on soooooooo many corny kegs??? Check the pictures!

 

[szajsiwo]

I did not racked at all. Afer fermantation starts I was waiting until gravity reach given level, which is pretty high because I want a sweet cider. It took 10 days - first day in warm place to kick the fermantation than moved to basement with 57-59F.

I noticed one interesting thing that the fermentation speed decrease significantly after bottling.
Pasteurization was made 2 days after bottling. During this period the gravity of rest of unbottled cider dropped by 0.004-0.006 which is more than enough to fully carbonate (I was afraid of bottle bombs) BUT to my surprise in bottles there is almost no carbonation!
I seems the bottling is a sort of racking which slows fermentation significantly.

Now I got a problem because I got a new big batch (47L so about 12,5gallons) running with WLP041 (the winner of my 6 yeast test) and I have no satisfactory solution to get sweet and bottle carbonated cider...

 

[kgressler]

I'm glad that so many folks are finding this thread useful! I've definitely learned a lot from everyone who has contributed.

I got my first juice of the season a couple of weeks ago. The mix was Cortland, Gala and Jonathan, which has become my early season mix of choice. One of these days, I'm hoping to add some Hewes Crab to this mix as a few orchards around here have planted them but no one is selling them yet.

The SG was 1.057, which is the highest that I've ever got from an early season mix. Partly that is because it was a dry summer and partly its because now that the orchard where I get my juice is making their own hard cider, they are letting the apples hang on the trees a little longer. I still bumped it with 3oz/gal of turbinado/dextrose mix, which turned out to be a good thing because even with the extra sugar, these batches fermented out really fast.

I did two batches each of Brupaks and Wy3056 (sufited & non sulfited), non sufited BRY97 and a sulfited Notty batch. The weather for the past two weeks has been great for fermenting. By opening the basement windows at night, I was able to keep temps between 62F and 66F, which is a good range.

This batch still fermented out really fast and I crashed them all after 9 days. Last year, same juice from same trees and same temps fermented out in 12-13 days. The main difference seems to be the starting SG of the raw juice, because in both years I bumped the SG up to about 1.065 before pitching the yeast - I just had to use more sugar last year. So its possible that the higher sugar content seems to be correlated to higher nutrient level in the fruit (given same trees). I called the orchard to see if maybe they had fertilized this year, and they did apply some phosphorus and potash this year, but no nitrogen. Last year they didnt add anything. So either the phosphorus and/or potash has a similar effect on the yeast as nitrogen, or the same process that concentrates sugars in the fruit is also concentrating nutrient

Go to sleep yeasties... nothing but dreams now.

One of the batches, the sulfited WY3056 batch, would just not shut down. It blew the bung out of the carboy twice.

Back into secondaries and clearing at room temperature, all of the batches except the sulfited WY3056 batch seem fairly stable. The six on the right are the ones from this season, right after the crash

Unsurprisingly, the sulfited WY3056 batch started back up after a day. I'll need to throw that one back in the fridge. Its not unusually for the WY3056 to need two crashes to stop in the beginning of the season

As many gallons as you produce each year you have to have quite a problem consuming all of this dont you?lol
Do you make full batched for friends or just give alot away or what?
I felt like I made a lot last year(35 gallons) and i have a few cases remaining. I may have to start giving some away soon myself.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Had a couple friends over to indulge -they are super impressed. I am a BREWING GOD!

Congratulations! Remember, with great power comes great responsibility!

My fresh experience with stove top pasteurization is not as positive as yours....
I don't know why we get such different results but there are some thoughts....
- I'm using pure fresh pressed cider, no juice from other fruits
- I didn't cold crash - just racked to bottles just as it is

I think that skipping the cold crash may account for some of the taste change if you started with fresh juice. I dont use stovetop pasteurization, but I know that for fresh juice, the cider mills generally use UV or flash pasteurization now, because doing a long heat cycle gives all of the solids a cooked taste. If you used fresh juice and didnt crash, you probably had a lot of suspended solids and the stovetop method is a relatively long heat cycle.

I noticed one interesting thing that the fermentation speed decrease significantly after bottling.
Pasteurization was made 2 days after bottling. During this period the gravity of rest of unbottled cider dropped by 0.004-0.006 which is more than enough to fully carbonate (I was afraid of bottle bombs) BUT to my surprise in bottles there is almost no carbonation!
I seems the bottling is a sort of racking which slows fermentation significantly.

Yes, racking the cider off the lees will slow the fermentation, whether you are cold crashing or just bottling. For the stove top pasteurization method, the standard best practice seems to be to fill a plastic test bottle and use that to tell when the carbonation is done (dont heat the plastic bottle though - just drink that one when its done)

I have another batch fermenting now, with S-04 this time. Only apples. I don't think I would try the same method. Bottle-carbonation would be pretty iffy, given that cold-crashing/re-racking with S-04 seems to effectively halt fermentation in most instances. How would I then bottle-carbonate?

Yeah, bottle carbing a semi sweet cider is pretty tough. If you are using the stove top method then a champagne yeast or lager yeast is probably better because it is less likely to completely shut down during the crash. Since you've already started with SO4, you might want to try giving it a little nutrient before you crash and see if that helps some of it survive the crash. Or.....

That means trying forced-carbonation. And that means spending some $$ on a Corny Keg, a C02 tank, and picnic tap... which is starting to make this a pretty expensive "hobby". Which makes me wonder: how did CvilleKevin get his hands on soooooooo many corny kegs??? Check the pictures!

Check Criagslist. You should be able to find a decent used setup kegging setup for under $100. and corny kegs can be fairly cheap if you take your time collecting them. They are usually $35, but they drop now and then. The most I ever paid for any of mine was $25. I got my first six cornies about 20 years ago, when I traded a gallon of a friend's homebrew that was left over from a party to a couple guys at the local Coke distributor. Since then, I just pick a few up whenever I see them for under $20 and now I am up to 35 kegs.

"Expensive hobby" is somewhat relative. Between 35 kegs, 24 carboys, 2 tanks and regulators, a big fridge and misc airlocks and such, I've got maybe $1500 bucks into this tops over the last 20 years. I realize that is not chump change, but there are plenty of ways to blow that in a weekend on hobbies. Also, that's to get max production with minimal effort. Up until 10 years ago I had about $100 into this total for a tank and regulator, and that was fine for 6-8 kegs a year. One of these days I'm hoping to score an industrial dishwasher so I can clean 4 kegs at a time. I've got a dozen empties in my basement that I've been procrastinating on cleaning. So its most a tradeoff between time and money. If you have enough of one, you can mostly eliminate the other.

As many gallons as you produce each year you have to have quite a problem consuming all of this dont you?lol

No, my main problem is making it last through the summer, although I am getting better at this. I currently have 8 kegs from last year although 2 are almost empty and I'm about to take 2 more to an apple pressing party this afternoon.

Do you make full batched for friends or just give alot away or what?

Mostly parties. I've got my time per keg down to about 2hrs/keg now, so taking a keg to a potluck is not much more effort than making something like a pie. At my place, we usually go though 6-8 kegs during a typical party. I have been slowing down a little though. Last year only made 35 kegs and still have almost 8 left.

I felt like I made a lot last year(35 gallons) and i have a few cases remaining. I may have to start giving some away soon myself.

Drinking with friends (usually) beats drinking alone!

 

[roguedesigns]

As we try cider again (with some amazing local juice picked up from an orchard here in Northern California), I just wanted to say, you are my hero.
I don't understand a third of what you're talking about, but I'm sure that will come in time.
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge.

 

[scotthelder]

I have lurked here for the past 2 years and used this particular thread quite a bit for info and guidance. Thanks to Kevin and others for the detailed info. This year a friend and I built a scratter and press and pressed 85 gallons of cider. couple quick questions.

the coldest I can coldcrash is 55 degrees, not enough to cause a stuck fermentation. When racking into the secondary can I stop the fermentation with just k-meta? If so how much per 6 gallon carboy? Or do I have to use sorbate? I'd like to avoid the sorbate if possible.

Next question, assuming I get it stopped after racking into secondary do I need to re-rack a third time to store? My plan is to leave carboys in 55 degree fermentation chamber and keg as needed. We are hoping the 14 carboys will last thru till next december or so.

 

[CvilleKevin]

the coldest I can coldcrash is 55 degrees, not enough to cause a stuck fermentation.

Depending on which yeast you use and amount of nutrient in the juice, you may be able to stop the fermentation just by racking a few times, even if you cant get it really cold

When racking into the secondary can I stop the fermentation with just k-meta? If so how much per 6 gallon carboy? Or do I have to use sorbate? I'd like to avoid the sorbate if possible.

In my experience you are probably going to going to need both, although I havent done that much experimenting with shutting the fermentation down chemically. When I was testing this, I made 16 one gallon batches and racked them all first at ~1.010, to remove the lees and most of the nutrient. So that helped slow the fermentation down already. Then I added various amounts of k-meta and sorbate. I found that any less than a full dose of sorbate (1/2tsp per gallon) would not stop the ferment and at least half a dose of k-meta (1/40 tsp per gallon) needed to be added before the sorbate to keep the final result from smelling horrible. If your juice is lower nutrient, or if you rack twice instead of once, you might be able to shut it down with less chemicals - but if its higher nutrient, you might need more. Also, I used S04 for all of this. You'd probably get a little better performance out of Notty, in terms of being able to stop the crash.

You might want to see how far you can get with just racking to stop the fermentation, and then use k-meta and sorbate if you need to.

Next question, assuming I get it stopped after racking into secondary do I need to re-rack a third time to store?

Probably not, although there is enough variability in the juice that you'll want to keep an eye on it. I usually just rack twice (before and after the crash) and then store for as long as it takes to get clear (which is usually within a month or two but sometimes takes all year) and then keg for long term storage. Once your secondaries get completely clear, you might want to rack again, depending on how much trub is on the bottom, just to make sure that nothing is able to start back up

My plan is to leave carboys in 55 degree fermentation chamber and keg as needed. We are hoping the 14 carboys will last thru till next december or so.

Sounds like a plan! Good luck! - And welcome to HBT forum!

 

[CvilleKevin]

The six batches from the September pressing have all been kegged now. They all came out nice. We finished the unsulfited Wy3056 keg last weekend. Unsulfited Brupaks and BRY97 are on tap. The Brupaks is semi dry at 1.004, nice and clean. The BRY97 is 1.010 and a little hazy. It tastes like an apple hefe.

The sulfited Nottingham batch is not bad. Its 1.006 and still has some bitterness compared to the unsulfited batches, but the sulfite is subdued enough to pass for tannin. The sulfited Brupaks is 1.010 and a little more bitter. Sufited Wy3056 has hardly any bitterness.

Four of the six batches got almost completely clear within 2-3 weeks in secondary, which is faster than usual. However instead of the usual compact lees, there was about an inch of pectin at the bottom, like applesause. The unsulfited Wy3056 and BRY97 batches were both a little hazy when I kegged them and a lot less trub. Not sure what causes all of the pectin to drop quickly like this. Some juice from a few years did the same thing.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Second pressing of the season was a couple days ago. Stayman, Winesap and Albemarle Pippen. The juice tastes great and SG was 1.068!

Three unsulfited batches pitched Thursday with Brupaks, Abbaye and BRY97

I sulfited five batches and pitched those yesterday. Two Brupaks, WLP005, Wy3068 and Wy3056. I think the Wy3056 pack was a dud. It never got swole and nothing is happening this morning. Everything else is going - even the WLP005 which usually starts a little later than everything else. As soon as LBHS opens I am going to get another Wy3056 pack to pitch

While the sulfited batches were sitting 24hrs, the juice got really clear, which is usually a good sign that they will clear well post-ferment.

The ninth batch which is fermenting is a batch of all Stayman juice, from an apple pressing party 3 weeks ago. Brupaks yeast, and it has been fermenting really slowly. It went from 1.060 to only 1.030 in 3 weeks. Temps have been on the warm side, so these apples must have had hardly any nutrient in them or maybe I just got a weak pack of Brupaks. It tastes great though. Not very sticky or yeasty, even though its still 1.030

 

[szajsiwo]

Kevin,

Can you give us little more info about sulfiting. Is there any rule you follow choosing between sulfited or unsulfited cider for fermentation?
AFAIR you mentioned many times that in general sulfited cider results in worse taste (afer fermentation) than unsulfited but you decide to sulfite quite often. This is not clear to me. Does it have something to do with off flavors that can be caused by wild yeast?

Thanks
Marek

 

[szajsiwo]

[edit] doubled post.

 

[rneumaier]

You could always buy a half gallon container of the juice and test it with a cheap package of champagne yeast.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Can you give us little more info about sulfiting. Is there any rule you follow choosing between sulfited or unsulfited cider for fermentation?
AFAIR you mentioned many times that in general sulfited cider results in worse taste (afer fermentation) than unsulfited but you decide to sulfite quite often. This is not clear to me. Does it have something to do with off flavors that can be caused by wild yeast?

My main rule is that if I'm expecting to drink it in the next few months, I dont add sulfite, especially if its an ale yeast - but for batches that I am not planning on drinking for a while, I will add sulfites

In general, adding sulfites generally improves how well the cider keeps. My experience has been that after 6 months or so, a given batch of cider is more likely (about 50/50 in my case) to turn acidic or funky if it doesnt have sulfites added.

For the first few months, the taste of the sulfite is pretty obtrusive to me. It has a sour/bitter taste. With a bland juice mix, it might actually help, but with a balanced mix that already has enough tannin and tartness, the sulfite makes these flavors overbearing. But after 3-6 months, the sulfite smooths out and its not so noticeable. After 9-12 months a sulfited batch usually tastes a lot cleaner than an unsulfited batch that has been aging that long

There are also a few yeasts that are not so good about outcompeting the wild yeasts, so I'll always use sulftite on those. Wy3068, WLP005. The sulftite doesnt seem to leave as bitter a taste with these as it does with the ale yeasts, so they can often be consumed right after fermenting, even though they have sulfite added. Wy3056 is another one where the sulfite taste is usually not as noticeable.

One thing that I've noticed over the past few years is that the later season pressings are more likely to turn funky after a few months if they dont get sulfited first. Most likely that is due to the apples sitting around in storage longer and more likely to get a bad apple or two in the bin.

The one unsulfited batch I make that always lasts all year without problems (knock on wood) comes from an annual cider pressing party that some friends have. Even though the conditions around the press are a little less sanitary (lots of little kids handling the fruit, bees and bugs getting into the juice, etc) the prep on the apples is much, much better than any commercial press I have ever seen. The apples are all washed by hand and every bad spot gets cut out. That seems to have a big effect on longevity.

 

[szajsiwo]

Thanks Kevin,

Have you ever tried to substitute sulfiting with mild pasteurization (like 50C=122F for 20min)?
like author of this study (worth reading BTW).

 

[RugenBrau]

Ck, what temps do you cold crash at?
Thanks

 

[doctorist]

Hello there!

I was wondering if I could get a bit of advice regarding a cider brew myself and some friends have embarked upon. Our starting gravity was 1.16 (this may be too high!) and it is now 1.14 after 2 weeks. It was a bit cold in the area we had left it, so we have now moved it to a warmer part of the house. I usually brew beer, and so I'm a complete newby to cider brewing. I have concerns that the gravity was too high at the start (and maybe its killed off the yeast) or it could be that we didn't add nutrient to it, just a bit of sugar. I was wondering if you chaps with a wealth of experience could guide me if possible?

Many Thanks

 

[mattmmille]

Hello there!

I was wondering if I could get a bit of advice regarding a cider brew myself and some friends have embarked upon. Our starting gravity was 1.16 (this may be too high!) and it is now 1.14 after 2 weeks. It was a bit cold in the area we had left it, so we have now moved it to a warmer part of the house. I usually brew beer, and so I'm a complete newby to cider brewing. I have concerns that the gravity was too high at the start (and maybe its killed off the yeast) or it could be that we didn't add nutrient to it, just a bit of sugar. I was wondering if you chaps with a wealth of experience could guide me if possible?

Many Thanks

It does sound like an awfully high SG...I would check your yeast information. You can usually find tolerance information and temperature range on the packaging. If not, then the company website.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Ck, what temps do you cold crash at?

I try to keep the fridge slowly cycling between 32-35F, sometimes a degree or two higher.

 

[RugenBrau]

Thanks. I have been a bit higher than that in the past and have not always been successful at stopping it

 

[CvilleKevin]

Have you ever tried to substitute sulfiting with mild pasteurization (like 50C=122F for 20min)? like author of this study (worth reading BTW).

No - I've fermented a fair amount of juice that was either flash pasteurized or UV pasteurized before the pitch. My experience is that the final result tended to be more cloudy (the heat sets the pectin) and that it turned funky faster, compared to sulfited batches. This was all juice from commercial presses, and I expect that the pasteurization was optimized for killing e-coli and other potentially toxic microbes, but not so much for wild yeasts and acetobacter.

Thanks for the link to the study! There is a lot of good stuff in there.

I have been a bit higher than that in the past and have not always been successful at stopping it

I'm not always successful either on the first try. I ended up having to re-crash two batches from the September pressing. Having the temp really low seems to give the best results. Also the faster the juice cools seems to help with shocking the yeast. Gallon batches almost always crash reliably, and with 5 gallons, it seems to work a little better when I only crash one or two batches at a time and the fridge has a lot of cold kegs in it. That seems to help the fridge maintain a low temp when one or two carboys of room temp juice are added.

If you can ferment at a steady temp - around 60 or 62 so that the fermentation is nice and slow - around 3wks or so - that seems to help to make sure that the yeast is already somewhat tuckered out when the crash starts. I find that the first juice of the season is usually harder to crash because I ferment at room temp and the first pressing usually ferments fast.

Starting at an SG of 1.065 or a little higher and low nutrient juice also helps.

I just started crashing the juice from the Nov 5th pressing. The Abbaye yeast batch was first to finish. We still had a few warm days and it took 13 days to go from 1.068 to 1.012. I crashed the Wy3068 at 1.010 at 14 days. That was really fast for Wy3068. Usually, it goes slower than the ale yeasts. I just crashed the Wy3056 at 1.012 after 16 days.

Below are some of the batches from the Nov 5th pressing. The Abbey batch is the dark batch on the shelf. This is right after I racked it to 5 gal, after 3 days in the fridge at ~34F. Its almost clear, although you cant quite see through the carboy yet. The Wy3068 batch is the dark and more clear batch that is in the fridge. It has been there for 2 days. The Wy3056 batch is right next to it and just went into the fridge. It is still light colored and opaque, just like the ones that are still fermenting on the shelf. It should be dark and clear like the others in a couple of days.

 

[Hankhill11]

CvilleKevin -
I'd like to embark on an experimental journey similar to your own, though a lot smaller scale. I figure i'll be doing up to 10 1/2 gallon tests with different yeasts and different types of sugars.

the yeast side experiment will be juice and yeast fermented dry. This will show flavors based on yeast styles.

the sugar side of the experiment will be single type of yeast + juice + sugars up to 1.060 SG fermented dry. this will show flavors based on sugars.

Yeast experiment
Use pure juice and equal amounts of yeasts (1/2 gallon batches?)
-Notti
-Lalvin E1118
-Ciderhouse
-Sefales S04
-montrachet?
-champagne?
_____________________________
Sugar experiment
Use juice and enough sugars to reach 1.060 SG (1/2 gallon batches?)
-corn sugar
-cane sugar
-brown sugar
-honey

The real question i have for you is; Did you rack to secondary off lees during your experiments or did you leave them in primary til completion? Any other tips on experiment other than good note keeping?

 

[CvilleKevin]

The real question i have for you is; Did you rack to secondary off lees during your experiments or did you leave them in primary til completion?

I racked to secondaries for all of the experiments that I did. Most of them I cold crashed, but even the for ones that I fermented all the way dry, I racked them to a clean jug and let them sit a couple days to clear before bottling.

Any other tips on experiment other than good note keeping?

Having some friends help you with the tasting evaluation is usually helpful, as palates vary widely. I've found that my GF is better at predicting which recipes will be the most popular at parties than I am.

I'm not a big fan of ciders fermented to dryness, but for those that I did ferment dry, I liked D47 the best. Premier Curvee and Cotes de Blanc got decent reviews from friends. Also Youngs Cider yeast - although I'm pretty sure that one is still just available in the UK

1 - this years heirloom blend was lower OG 1.054. I stopped it at 1.012/1.014 but it's a bit too dry and tart compared to last year. I'm assuming that might be a combo of the lower OG and how the blend came out this year. I've already racked it to stop fermentation, and it's now kegged in my keezer. Do you think if I racked a small amount of a different blend of unpasteurized cider to rack on top that it can help to bring back that sweet cider character? Last year's was so good that people didn't even realize it was near 8% since it still tasted a lot like unfermented cider instead of a really dry or overly sweet hard cider.

The best thing that I have found for dealing with tartness is maple syrup. Its an alkaline sweetener, so it is good at balancing acidity. If you add just a little bit, it will take the edge off the tartness without adding a noticeable flavor. If you add more, the maple flavor usually works well with cider. The only disadvantage is that it is fermentable, so you have to leave the keg in the fridge if you do this. Stevia is another alkaline sweetener that is not fermentable and it works OK, but doesnt taste quite as good IMHO. Most of the other sweeteners are neutral or acidic so they can make your cider sweeter, but not as good for balancing the tartness. You can use 2oz samples and 1/8 tsp increments of sweetener to figure out what is the best to use and how much.

2 - last year I reracked and cold crashed multiple times to make the cider crystal clear. Is there a simpler way to do this? I've been cautious to add pectin enzyme or gelatin

Time will almost always get the cider crystal clear. If that's not an option, I did some experiments with clarifiers several years ago and the best results that I got were with super kleer. It was fairly easy to use, cleared the cider very quickly and didnt add any taste that I could discern. I havent used it since though, as its an extra step and the ciders will almost always clear on their own - and when they dont they still taste fine.

Is it possible to just cold crash it for a while in the kegs, and then move it to room temperature to drop the chill haze and pour off the sediment?

That would probably work. You might not even need to move to room temp to get rid of the haze. I sometimes kegs mine when there is still a little haze and by the time the keg kicks they are usually completely clear.

Would racking any fresh cider on top cause any issues with clearing too?

Yeah, that would be introducing more pectin which is probably going to contribute to the haze.

My experiments this year include trying Saison yeast, WL 565. I wanted to use WL 590, French Saison, but that's a seasonal offering and not available now. I'm also trying WLP 500 Monestary Abby ale yeast that is a re-pitch from a beer experiment and a dry yeast: Brewers Best Cider house select, which I bought on impulse at the homebrew shop. I get all my apples from local orchards and press my own juice. I made about 40 gallons last year but some came out just too tart for my taste. I'm altering my apple blend somewhat in an effort to reduce the tartness. I was also hoping the Saison yeast would leave some apple flavor and sweetness to balance out the acidity. I also do a wild yeast cider and this year will be experimenting with adding malolactic culture from White Labs to several different batches and see if that makes a difference. Any comments on the above would be welcome, Thanks.

The main thing about Saison yeasts is that they tend to ferment out really fast, so are harder to control. I did some experiments with these a while ago and they all got drier than I like by the time I first sampled them. I liked the WLP500 the best, as did a few of my friends, but it was a minority taste.

Recently I've been having pretty good success with Abbaye dry Belgian yeast. It still ferments out faster than everything else I'm using, but not so fast that its uncontrollable. Also seems to crash well and gets nice and clear. I have a keg on tap now. It definitely has a nice fruity taste

 

[CvilleKevin]

Here is another picture of the Abbaye Ale batch (2nd from right), taken about 3 weeks after the picture above. During those 3 weeks it got super clear. Of the Nov 5th pressing, the Abbaye was the first to ferment, first to go on tap, and as of a few days ago, the first keg from that pressing to kick. It was pretty popular. I'll probably make a couple of Abbaye batches for the next pressing

Here are the rest of the batches from the Nov 5th pressing, along with a few others. They have all been in secondaries post-crash for 4-6 weeks now. The Wy3056 is almost as clear as the Abbaye. That's the third one from the right. It was in the secondary for about 6 weeks. The others still have just a little bit of haze, but if you shine a flashlight at them you can see the bricks on the other side. That is clear enough for kegging. If I had more time I might let them go a couple more weeks and see if they get as clear as the Abbaye and Wy3056 batches, but I am getting juice next week and need the shelf space. I kegged 4 of these last night and put them on tap. I'm gonna keg two more tonight. The BRY97 batch was the haziest, so I'll let that one sit for a few more weeks. That Nov 5th pressing was one of the all time best. High sugar, great flavor, all the batches crashed with no fuss, and they are all clear or almost clear within a few weeks after the crash.

The carboy on the far right is from a cider pressing party back in October. It is still really murky. I dont know what it is about that hand press that we use, but it seems to make consistently murky cider, year after year, no matter what apple varieties. It always tastes great though (knock on wood) This batch also turned out to be a wild yeast fermentation. I pitched Brupaks Ale yeast, but either I had a dud pack or I might have let the basement get too cold on the night of the pitch because it took forever to ferment out and when it did it had the unmistakable wild yeast taste. I added an ounce of oak chips to this one, to see if I can replicate the flavor of juice that ferments out with wild yeast in bourbon barrels.

I got myself a Mark II keg cleaner for Christmas. Its not quite as nice as an industrial dishwasher with a keg rack, but a whole lot cheaper and it does cut the cleaning time if you have a lot of kegs. By the time mine arrived, I had a backlog of 18 empty kegs, which I was able to knock out in an afternoon. I still needed to use the keg brush, but it cut the overall time by about half.

 

[markklug]

So does this mean that Abbaye will slowly replace Brupaks as the favorite yeast? Curious to see how many today you pitch the Abbaye in, cheers

 

[CvilleKevin]

So does this mean that Abbaye will slowly replace Brupaks as the favorite yeast? Curious to see how many today you pitch the Abbaye in

You never know, but I dont think BE-256 (the yeast formally know as Abbaye) is going to replace Brupaks any time soon - at least not for me. I've got a keg of Brupaks from that same batch of juice on tap now and its really hitting the spot. The Abbaye keg had a bigger apple flavor, but I like the subtlety of the Brupaks. My guess is that at a party, a keg of Abbaye would be gone faster. Kay and her friends liked it better. I'll probably send a couple bottles of each to the upcoming CASK competition and see what they think. Next time you are in town and have some time to kill, give me a call and we can do a flight.

I'm going to use BE-256 for two of the carboys that I filled today. One sulfited and the other unsulfited. Once those are finished, I'll have a better idea of whether this is a consistent winner or if I just got lucky last time. One thing about BE-256 is that it ferments pretty fast, which is not so good for early season, but nice for now when temps are cool and everything else is going a little slower. Last year I did one gallon to check it out - that tasted great, but when I used it in a 5 gal batch I didnt crash it in time. At 1.004 it was drinkable but not nearly as much flavor. I stopped the last batch at 1.012 and that was much much better. In retrospect it could have maybe gone 1.010, but I didnt want to risk washing out the flavor again.

The juice we got today was Stayman, Pink Lady, Albemarle Pippen and Winesap. SG was 1.064, which was not quite as high as the last pressing, but still nice. Flavor is great. I pitched two carboys today with Brupaks and Abbaye. The other six I sulfited. I'll pitch those six tomorrow with Brupaks, Abbaye, Nottingham, S23, Wy3056 and Wy3068

 

[Ibrew2]

I recently started brewing/cider making after 2 year hiatus from the hobby and was hoping to do a better job with the cider part of it. The last cider i made was (2) 6.5 gallon batches with Costco organic and EC1118 and WLP775 fermented dry, primed and bottled, and 2 years later, still NOT much of a pleasure to drink! 😝 Guess I need to find another use for it all. Anyway, after reading part of this post, I decided to try again.

1st batch is 5 gals of Musslemans (yeah, I know, yuck, but I dont have reasonable access to fresh pressed), 3 lbs orange blossom honey, (2) 12 oz cans of generic concentrate and WY3333. OG = 1.065, PH 3.7, fermenting at 60/65 f, racked/cold crashed at 1.020 after having SO taste it. Nice smell and taste untill just before crash when it started picking up slight sulphur smell, but after crash, its better. Had to crash second time, as the lock started back up and it dropped a point. I think I'm on the right track with this one.

Second batch, not so sure. 6 gals Costco organic/1 can concentrate/5 lbs clover honey/2 packs notty pitched into 1.076 mix. At 36 hrs, no airlock activity and tan colored blobs in lower half of carboy. Racked to bucket and mixed the holy Hell out of it. Airlock activity noted after another 24 hrs as well as stink before I even walked into the garage. SG currenty dropping about 3-4 points aday and the smell has subsided quite a bit. Tastes pretty good at 1.026, still quite sweet though.

I think I'm ok with 1st batch, not sure about second. I did note that you stated notty doesnt do all that well with honey, of course AFTER I started the second batch!

Any thoughts on how best to proceed, especially a target SG to crash the second batch with the nottingham?

BTW, kudos on the post and replies. A wealth of information that you are so generous to share. After reading it all, my head is still spinning! Lol I will need to go through it at least one more. Thanks again!

 

[CvilleKevin]

Any thoughts on how best to proceed, especially a target SG to crash the second batch with the nottingham?

Target SG really depends on what you are going for. Personally, I'd go for anywhere between 1.008 and 1.012, depending on what else I've got to drink with it. Maybe a little higher if your SO likes it sweeter. One thing to keep in mind is that when you taste it while it is still fermenting, that active yeast will usually make it taste a drier than it really is - so wherever you stop it, it will usually taste a little sweeter after the crash. Notty and honey can sometimes get a little too sticky of a finish if you crash it too high IMHO. Also strips the flavor more if you go too low

Two good points for the Notty & honey combination is that it almost always crashes the first time and clears quickly - so hopefully that will be your experience as well.

 

[NEMaker]

What are the thoughts on using glyercine to increase the body and add a bit more sweetness? I have some cider that came out a bit thinner than I would have liked, and maybe a hint more dry. Do you think this is the best route? I originally asked about adding more apple cider on top, but everything is already kegged and I didn't want to mess around with fermentation kicking back up or the pectin hazing. However, I'd be willing to go that way if that is superior. Thanks!

 

[CvilleKevin]

What are the thoughts on using glyercine to increase the body and add a bit more sweetness? I have some cider that came out a bit thinner than I would have liked, and maybe a hint more dry. Do you think this is the best route? I originally asked about adding more apple cider on top, but everything is already kegged and I didn't want to mess around with fermentation kicking back up or the pectin hazing. However, I'd be willing to go that way if that is superior. Thanks!

I havent used glycerine before, so cant really speak to how it would work. In my experience, turbinado sugar works well if a cider is needing body and sweetness. The disadvantage of that is that its fermentable, so that really only works if your keg is cold and you used an ale or wheat yeast, in which case its not really a problem as long as the keg stays cold.

I'd recommend trying some different sweeteners using 2oz pours and 1/4 tsp additions, then scale up depending on what works best. In my experience, turbinado or fresh juice are both good for fixing a cider that is lacking in body and sweetness, but otherwise tastes OK. Maple syrup is good if the cider is too acidic and agave works well if their is any sort of funky taste up front but the finish is nice. All of these are fermentable so really only are usable once the keg is on tap. I havent found any sort of non fermentable sweetener that tastes decent.

Once you figure out what to add to your keg and how much, be really careful adding it so you dont get a foamover. I usually add about a third at a time, and replace the keg lid quickly after each addition, before the keg has a chance to foam over.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I finished crashing the eight batches from the Jan 14th pressing last weekend

The Wy3068 batch finished first, 1.016 at 12 days. Wy3068 usually goes slower than the ale yeasts, but this particular pack was on a mission. It swelled up like it was going to burst after just a couple hours and started fermenting almost right away after pitching.

Unsulfited Abbaye and sulfited Wy3056 were next after 14 days, at 1.010 and 1.012 respectively. Sulfited Abbaye, Nottingham and S23 were next after 16 days, at 1.010, 1.010 and 1.008, followed by unsulfited Brupaks at 1.012 after 19 days and sulfited Brupaks at 1.010 after 21 days

During fermentation, temps were mostly around 60-62F.

For the sulfited batches I used the full recommended dose of sulfite (1/4tsp in 6gal), which is more than I have used in several years. These apples had been in storage for a while and there were a few rotten ones. I think we ejected most of the bad ones before they got to the scratter, but five bins of apples moves pretty fast and we might have missed a few, so I wanted to be on the safe side.

I'd forgot how much the sulfite messes with the taste of the juice. All six of the sulfited batches still had a big sour/bitter sulfite wallop when I crashed them, so I had to go mostly on sg and not so much on taste. The two unsulfited batches taste great though, so I'm just going have to trust that the sulfited batches will come around after a couple of months.

The Abbaye and S23 yeasts do NOT like a full dose of sulfite. Those two really stunk for several days. The sulfited ale and wheat batches put off a little bit of stink, but not nearly as much as the Abbaye and S23.

The above pic shows the unsulfited Abbaye, Wy3068 and Wy3056 batches, a couple of days after the crash. You can see that the Wy3068 started back up again. I had to crash that one twice. The others are all stable

Here they are again, a couple of weeks after the crash. Both Abbaye batches have really cleared up nicely. So has the Wy3068, but I had to crash that one twice. The Nottingham batch is not quite as clear as the Abbaye, but almost. It doesnt look nearly as clear in the picture, but that is because the color is darker. The rest of the batches look like Wy3056 carboy on the right, which is almost clear, but still a little hazy. Certainly clear enough to keg, but I'll probably give them at least a few more weeks.

At this point, I'd say the Abbaye has a slight edge on Nottingham and much faster than the others when it comes to clearing after a single crash. The unsulfited Abbaye batch tastes really good too, although its still a little raw and could use at least another week or two to mellow a bit. Whether these two batches end up tasting as good as the last Abbaye batch - time will tell.

 

[DAVEL3]

Great thread Kevin..I have been reading through it for the past week or so and am in the process of fermenting a gallon of pasturized cider with US05 and the recommed dose of sugars to get it to 1.060 it has been in the basement for a week with temp at 50 to 55 degs. and is fermenting Slooowly,but it is fermenting..is this to cold for this yeast? Also I would like to add some rasberries to it as you have done in the past with this yeast. I assume the process is to add the berries when the gravity hits 1.020 and let it ferment some more till it reaches desiered taste. What I'm unsure of is if you rack off the primary with the berries and then cold crash, or leave the berries in and crash in the primary and rack off post crash?

Thanks for your generous time and knowledge!

Dave

 

[CvilleKevin]

in the process of fermenting a gallon of pasturized cider with US05 and the recommed dose of sugars to get it to 1.060 it has been in the basement for a week with temp at 50 to 55 degs. and is fermenting Slooowly,but it is fermenting..is this to cold for this yeast?

I'd try to keep it above 55 if possible. I havent had a batch of US05 stall out on me yet, knock on wood, but I've had Notty and Brupaks stall below 55 and they are similar.

I assume the process is to add the berries when the gravity hits 1.020 and let it ferment some more till it reaches desiered taste.

Yep. I usually add the berries at a lower sg, but that's the general idea. Add them right at the end of the primary fermentation so all the pulp comes out during the crash

What I'm unsure of is if you rack off the primary with the berries and then cold crash, or leave the berries in and crash in the primary and rack off post crash?

I rack before the cold crash, which gets most of the berries and pulp out. Then rack again after the crash, which gets everything that I missed. Usually. Sometimes a bit of raspberry haze stays and doesnt drop out until its been sitting in the secondary for a while

 

[CvilleKevin]

Shout Out to Mark Klug for taking 1st in Cider and 3rd Best of Show at the Beer Blitz Yesterday!

Nice job Mark! I hope you saved some of that!

I managed to get 3rd with an oaked cider from last year. No love for either the Brupaks or Abbaye batches from November. Or at least not enough love to get on the podium this time. I havent seen the scores yet. Lots of people stepping up their cider game. Last time around I got a 42 which I was real happy with but still wasnt enough to show.