Remove dissolved Iron from water

[conpewter]

So I'm finally getting my setup back up and running at the new house. We installed a water softener here since the well water has pretty bad iron. It is dissolved so the water comes out clear, but then will precipitate iron oxide out after it sits.

Of course I don't want to use softened water to brew with, but I also can't use the water as it is out of the non-softened tap. I could get a reverse osmosis system but would prefer not to go to that expense plus I don't like building water back up as it is hard to get bicarbonate and other minerals dissolved in water at room temp/pressure.

I've seen whole-house greensand filters that take out dissolved iron, and wouldn't mind a small version of that, even if I can just build my own and "regenerate" the media manually as needed.

I've thought about just running 15 gallons into my HLT the night before, then pump it all through a carbon filter to remove the now precipitated iron and any just make it taste better. - is it bad to precipitate rust in my Stainless HLT? Would 12 hours be enough to oxidize all the iron in 15 gallons of water in an open top keg? Anyone else deal with this problem and have some cool solutions?

 

[Yooper]

If you have a softener, you must have other things you don't want in the brewing water besides iron? I'm just wondering what the profile of the water is, pre-softener. That's the crucial thing to know.

I had good tasting, but alkaline water, so I went with a small RO system for the brewery. It's not hard at all to build water from RO (you never need to add bicarbonate) if you want to go that route and it cost me about $120 for the system but there is a lot of water wasted and I understand that you may not want to go that route.

 

[conpewter]

The water without the iron I think would be pretty good for darker beers, but I'd need to supplement with RO for lighter styles. It has been a while but wouldn't I need to add alkalinity for the darker beers to have the right mash PH?

I have not run a profile other than what the softener guy did when he was here, not too hard of water, but enough that the water softener takes out all the hardness and the iron as well (the iron was the big problem, our whole tub/shower was brown when we moved in)

Btw Lorena I renewed my AHA membership and voted for you Though i won't be going to the AHA conference this summer.

 

[bstacy1974]

Do you have a way to measure any total residual iron after you filter? If not, you're taking a chance at not removing all that you desire.

I typed up a big, long response when I realized the previous question. So here's the summary of what I deleted.

Small RO units, don't like iron and will not remove all dissolved iron efficiently.

Oxidation needs surface area. Overnight oxidation in a 15 gal keg would probably not work. Aquarium pump and air stone would help, but keep iron in suspension. It may take a few days for the oxidized iron to settle by gravity. Filter the clear, settled water.

Suspended iron clogs filters. It may take multiple filters of various sizes to remove all the iron. Best to filter clear, settled water.

Greensand filters regenerate using potassium permanganate, KMnO4. This is a powerful oxidizer and hazardous chemical if not respected. Please be careful.

Which takes me back to the first question of this reply. You need a way to measure residual iron after any DIY treatment process. Even if you have a commercial treatment system (water softener), a test kit may be a good investment.

 

[conpewter]

Looks like I can get iron test strips, so I'll look into that. Realistically I don't care if I have iron I just want to make tasty beer But I know my beer will taste like crap with the amount of iron I currently have (I think it was 3ppm when the softener guy tested)

I'm looking for the easiest/cheapest way to have good brewing water. If it really is not that hard to go from RO to any style of beer... I'll just go that direction, as I'd just run the softened water through the RO filter and avoid having iron up against the RO membrane.

Thinking of just picking these up
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039VD9UA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

but I can taste the iron right now when I drink it, so was just planning on doing that after whatever method chosen to de-iron, perhaps not scientific enough.

 

[bstacy1974]

Those test strips should work as long as the iron levels are within the testing range. Hach makes good stuff. Water treatment industry standard really.

I think you can make tasty beer with just softened water. Even beers that, by style, want hardness and alkalinity. Send your softened water to Ward Laboratories. Play around with a brewing calculator. It may turn out that your soft water is a good enough starting point for brewing water.

If you choose to purchase a RO, here are some things to consider.

- Using a softener as pre-treatment to a RO unit is the absolute best way to ensure good membrane performance. I'm six years on the same membrane. I test my water at least twice per year. Membrane life will not be same for everyone. It really depends on usage and water chemistry and membrane construction.

- Get the cheapest unit possible. The super deluxe 6 stage filtration super extreme, yada, yada, yada is nonsense. Of those 6 stages, only one is the RO. The other "stages" are simple string sediment filters or activated charcoal filters. If you have a good screen on your well and a sediment filter ahead of your softener, you don't need very much sediment protection before the RO unit. Charcoal is still a good idea however. Change regularly. Every 6 months.

- Get a unit with easily replaceable filters. Some manufacturers have proprietary connection systems that only work on their units. This forces you to only buy their expensive, encapsulated filters.
Look for something like this.

Those three filter housings on the bottom can use any standard 10" string or charcoal filter of your choosing. The membrane is in the pressure vessel directly on top of the filters. The smaller encapsulated filter on the very top is activated charcoal. This is simply for removing any unpleasant tastes or odors coming from the holding tank. So the pictured system is a 5 stage system. Remove one filter housing and its a four stage. 5 stage is a fairly common configuration.

- Small RO units are inefficient by design. For every gallon that enters the unit 1/2 gets rejected to waste. You can increase efficiency by use of a pump. Some system will have an electric pump, some have a pump powered by the flow of water trough the unit. Either way, a pump allows you to get a little more water with a little less waste.

 

[conpewter]

Interesting. Well I may just send off my water to Ward and see what is up even before I implement anything (Was planning on sending it off after some sort of treatment) I can just send off the softened water to see if it has enough sodium added to it by the softener that I should get the RO system, or if the sodium is low enough I could just brew with it.

Also found this RO system if I do decide to go that way. Will the tiny size of the storage tank be a problem if I'm going to need 13 gallons or so to brew with?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XELTTG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Will be nice to use for drinking water too

 

[Yooper]

I'd be willing to bet you don't want to use the softened water without the RO filter, so I'd think you'd be wasting your money having that tested.

Did you notice my RO system when you were in my brewery? I don't have a water storage tank- my water just goes into my HLT. I don't have a float valve on it, so I just keep checking on it. But you could install a float switch, or just draw the water into a larger vessel.

 

[bstacy1974]

Interesting. Well I may just send off my water to Ward and see what is up even before I implement anything (Was planning on sending it off after some sort of treatment) I can just send off the softened water to see if it has enough sodium added to it by the softener that I should get the RO system, or if the sodium is low enough I could just brew with it.

Also found this RO system if I do decide to go that way. Will the tiny size of the storage tank be a problem if I'm going to need 13 gallons or so to brew with?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XELTTG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Will be nice to use for drinking water too

Not a problem if you plan ahead. Collect water here and there starting a couple of days before you brew, it won't seem so bad. Empty the holding tank into a bucket or kettle. In about an hour the tank will refill. Empty again...

 

[Yooper]

I don't know much about RO systems, but I remember reading something about how they are pressurized and that the flow would slow down when it's getting filled, and then stop when it's full. Those are fine for drinking water systems, so you always have it under pressure, but I don't think that's what you'd want. But check with AJ deLange or Mabrungard, as they know this stuff way better than I ever could!

Here's what I have: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-ro-di-system-75gpd.html but with no DI. I had a chance to order the auto stop instead of the DI, for the same price. (I have the auto stop, but still haven't installed the float valve- but that's another story!)

 

[ChuckO]

Our household is on a private well that was ruined by gas wells in the neighborhood. We got the gas company to drill a new well for us into a different water seam. After testing the water and having a considerable problem with dissolved iron we got the gas company to install a filtration system. The water is treated with chlorine bleach, flows to a settling tank, then through an activated carbon filter and finally through a softener. Most of the iron precipitates out in the settling tank as a brown goo, and the excess bleach is removed by the carbon filter. It's a very expensive system.

After all of that, we finally installed an RO system for drinking water, coffee and brewing. It reduces the dissolved minerals to a very low level so that now I can build the profiles that I want for beer.

In your case I would do as I am now doing, using RO water and build the mineral profile that I want. As a reminder, iron messes up the ion exchange media in the softener, so be certain to use salt formulated to also remove iron. We had way too much iron in the water, hence the need for the pre-treatment.

 

[conpewter]

Thank you all for the help I don't remember your RO system but I'm sure I saw it, though I do remember you've flooded your brewery a few times....

I'll probably end up getting a regular RO system so we can use it for drinking water too, and then I'll run a separate line T'd off the line to the pressure tank to fill the HLT, perhaps with a float valve on it. Then when I'm filling the HLT, no extra pressure against the membrane, will drain the tank first and then trickle till filled, then fill the tank back up with the float valve kicks in. We'll see how I end up, I tend to make changes as I build things.

* edit: I'll look into getting the iron removal salt as I've just been using regular salt, worked well for the last year or so but wouldn't want to ruin my softener, gotta see if it is hype or worthwhile.

 

[chainlife]

Not sure how close you are to the fox, but i'm a few lots back and my water is terrible! It tastes like licking a piece of metal... Let me know how your water turns out. After two years i'm very close to getting a water boss iron filter. I grew up in johnsburg about a half mile from the river and the water there was super hard, but didn't have rust like this! My parents recently moved to a higher location in johnsburg near the farms, and the water there is awesome, just a little hard, so plan on using their water. My first batch, my dad told me the kitchen sink cold water was bypassed around the softener. I was there yesterday and followed the line, and it not bypassed. Do you know how terrible my batch will turn out w/ softened water?

 

[conpewter]

Hey chainlife, sorry I never got back to this thread. I doubt your beer was ruined by water from a softener, I've brewed with it before and it wasn't bad, but not great.

I got my report from Ward Labs back today. I've noticed since I've lived here a year now that the water has much less iron in it. The house sat empty and unused for 4 years or more before we moved in, so i find it interesting the iron has dropped from ~3ppm to .46 ppm as we've used the well. Also it doesn't seem to turn brown anymore when left in a glass, but still tastes a bit like iron (brewing levels I'm reading should be under .1 ppm)

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 358
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.60
Cations / Anions, me/L / 7.1 6.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 19
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 59
Magnesium, Mg 29
Total Hardness, CaCO3 268
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 2
Chloride, Cl 2
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 416
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 342
Total Phosphorus, P 0.04
Total Iron, Fe 0.48

 

[conpewter]

doing a quick calc it looks like after this water gets softened I'll have over 600 ppm of sodium in the water, so that would not be good to brew with, but I can run it through an RO system. For now I've been buying water...

 

[conpewter]

Well I'll bring my water report with me this weekend. Then you can tell me to buy a RO system again

 

[Homercidal]

Buy an RO system!

I was seriously looking into it, simply for my alkalinity, but then I found the local grocery has an RO system and I can buy 10 gallons of water for $4. This makes more sense for me when I only brew once a month on average. Before this I would only use my water for stouts and then treat with Campden tabs for the chloramine. Since it's so close now, I us RO for all my beers. Never noticed the salt additions not working out right.