Received some brewing advice, is it legitimate?

[ctomlin]

I am just starting brewing (still waiting for my first batch to condition in bottles) so I have naturally been doing a decent amount of research as far as best practices go. I went to my local brew shop the other day to pick up a carboy, and the owner of the shop gave me a few pieces of information that I hadn't read before, and I wanted to see what you all think. He said:

1) "If you are brewing 5 gallon batches of beer it is best to have a 5 gallon carboy instead of a larger one, so that the krausen is removed via a blow-off tube. Otherwise, it will fall back into the beer potentially causing off-flavors."

Is there any credibility to this? I have obviously read about blow-off tubes and such, but I haven't heard that it is better to ferment in a 5 gallon vs 6.5, and that the krausen can contribute to off flavoring.

2) "Instead of pitching the yeast immediately after the wort is cooled and in your primary fermentor, it is better to let it sit in a carboy for about an hour so all the sediment sinks to the bottom, then rack it off into another carboy and pitch the yeast."

One of my friends seemed to think this was not only not necessary, but dangerous since it would increase the chance of contamination. I did this anyway since it seemed like a good way to aerate the wort (I have a plastic piece on the end of the siphon hose which turns the wort into droplets as it siphons). I also wasn't too worried that an hour in a sealed sanitized container would increase the risk too much.

So, what does everyone think? Is there any credibility to any of this, should I ignore this information, or does it even matter either way?

Thanks in advance for your input!

 

[mindcrime]

No credibility at all. You should leave headspace for the Krausen, so ferment in a larger vessel than the size of your batch. The second point, you should pitch your yeast and seal the fermenter as soon as you can once you have the wort down to pitching temps to reduce the chances of infection and other generally bad stuffs.

 

[SoonerDoc]

Yeah, I would argue against either of those recommendations.

 

[kh54s10]

No credibility at all. You should leave headspace for the Krausen, so ferment in a larger vessel than the size of your batch. The second point, you should pitch your yeast and seal the fermenter as soon as you can once you have the wort down to pitching temps to reduce the chances of infection and other generally bad stuffs.

I agree.
There is no sense at all in using a small carboy.

You could let the trub settle then transfer before pitching but it increases the time the wort is susceptible to infection. You would probably lose more beer to the wort this way that letting the wort settle in primary. It will pack a lot tighter in a few weeks than in an hour before pitching.

I would be wary of any advice from this source.

 

[Grizzlybrew]

1. I don't know if there is necessarily a correct answer. Using different sized carboys will affect the fermentation in numerous ways. With a smaller carboy, you may remove some proteins that gather on top of the krausen, but you will also remove a portion of viable yeasts, reduce the surface area these yeasts can utilize and possibly increase fermenter pressure as all krausen is forced through a blow-off tube. The last piece might be beneficial if you are trying to supress ester production, but the other aspects are not desirable in my opinion. Remember, yeast is a living organism. How would you want to be treated? Cramped up with all your buddies, trying to eat and be happy just to be expunged into the cold, black night (i.e. blow-off bucket) or would you want to spread out and be free to feast and be merry? Again, maybe not one right answer, but perhaps my personal opinion is known at this point.

2. Again, maybe not one correct answer. One might argue that there are compounds in the trub that the yeast can utilize to enhance a healthy fermentation. People will probably argue that removing all trub will result in a brighter beer. If you use finings or cold crash, I would think you would achieve the same level of clarity. There might be something I'm missing about chill-haze and its formation, whether it's from the hop trub or yeast trub... And as far as contamination, next time you brew and rack into the fermenters, rack a small portion into a smaller, sanitized (just as the fermenter) vessel and take a gravity reading, but then do nothing else other than seal it with an airlock. Take another reading a few days later and if it is the same, then your sanitation practices are where they need to be and waiting and re-racking before pitching your brews shouldn't concern you. If it has dropped, it can be a sign of infection.

Hope it helps,

Josh

 

[billl]

1) you can do this, but it certainly isn't necessary. Big breweries certainly do not just blow off their krausen and lose all that yeast and beer. Some gunk will just stick to the sides and the rest will drop out of the beer if you just give it a little time.

2) You can do this, but I don't think it is benefitial. The cold break is actually good for yeast health, so getting rid of it isn't a plus. In terms of infection - it really doesn't matter as long as you are practicing good sanitation techniques. If you can sanitize 1 carboy, you can sanitize a second.

There are 2 basic schools of thought on producing clear beer.

1) Do everything you can to keep anything messy out of your beer. Strain every bit of hops. Whirlpool, let settle, rack only clear beer. Skim off gloppy krausen. Rerack beer to a secondary to keep any dead or dormant yeast away.

2) Toss it all in and forget about it. Let it clear naturally via gravity.

Both methods can work just fine. #2 is obviously a whole lot less hassle. Personally, I screen the wort going into the fermenter to get the big gunk out and then let nature do its thing.

 

[unionrdr]

I totally agree. Old wive's tales & mis-information from brewers on the OG. You need the head space from a 6-6.5 gallon fermenter for all that krausen so it doesn't turn into beersuvious. But a blow off is still a good idea to prevent explosive messes. The krausen will not contaminate the fermenting beer. It's mearly yeast foam esentually. Ale yeasts are top fermenting.
It's def not better to let it sit,& racking again before pitching. That's a leftover from the old days of poorer yeast quality & the autlysis boogieman.
Just chill your wort,transfer to FV with top off water through a fine mesh strainer & aerate like crazy. Stir roughly to mix well & aerate a little more. Take hydrometer sample,then pitch yeast & seal it up. It'll be fine.

 

[dadshomebrewing]

i think the term i would use for both of those is "horse flop", but i don't know if that's allowed in the forum

 

[ctomlin]

Thanks guys,
Sounds like I got some incorrect info. So, now I have two 5 gallon carboys, and a 6.5-ish gallon bucket. I guess the two 5 gallon carboys aren't a complete waste though, since I can still use them for a secondary, right? Should I go buy a 6.5 gallon carboy as a primary fermentor, or will my bucket work just fine?

Thanks again

 

[billl]

Buckets work just fine.

 

[unionrdr]

If the bucket has a spigot,it's likely your bottling bucket. I use an ale pail that's some 6.5 gallon,& a Cooper's micro brew FV that's something like 7 gallons. you need 6-6.5 gallon capacity to allow for krausen expansion.

 

[dadshomebrewing]

Thanks guys,
Sounds like I got some incorrect info. So, now I have two 5 gallon carboys, and a 6.5-ish gallon bucket. I guess the two 5 gallon carboys aren't a complete waste though, since I can still use them for a secondary, right? Should I go buy a 6.5 gallon carboy as a primary fermentor, or will my bucket work just fine?

Thanks again

you can use the carboys for primary, too, if you like.

just be sure to use the blow-off tube.

i brew one gallon batches, in a one gallon carboy... always use a blowoff tube, and never have a problem.

either way, with the buckets, or with the carboy/blow off, works just fine.

btw... if you skip secondary, and leave things in primary for the full time you can have three batches going at once with that setup... something to think about.

 

[Golddiggie]

As mentioned he was feeding you bad info. I would return the 5 gallon for another primary. I would also only rack to a second vessel when it makes complete sense to. Which is for only a few reasons. You fan get super clear brews without using a secondary. Time in primary gives the same result, but that's a different thread.

 

[ScrewedBrew]

Thanks guys,
Sounds like I got some incorrect info. So, now I have two 5 gallon carboys, and a 6.5-ish gallon bucket. I guess the two 5 gallon carboys aren't a complete waste though, since I can still use them for a secondary, right? Should I go buy a 6.5 gallon carboy as a primary fermentor, or will my bucket work just fine?

Thanks again

Look into krausening for bottle conditioning. Save 2 qts of wort for krausening on bottling day. Then you would start with 4.5 gals in your 5 gal carboy.

My last batch in the 5 gal carboy lost 1.5 qts of volume through the blow off tube.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Regarding trub removal, there's definitely no consensus. You should download the Basic Brewing podcast where they presented the results of seemingly dozens of different people's A-B testing. It seemed pretty much 50-50 for preferring beer where the trub was removed.

Perhaps it's most appropriate for certain yeasts or styles or gravity or ...? This remains a very undeveloped aspect of homebrewing.

But to sit here and say "No it's pointless" or "Yes it can help" is silly unless you've done a few tests yourself.

 

[kh54s10]

Thanks guys,
Sounds like I got some incorrect info. So, now I have two 5 gallon carboys, and a 6.5-ish gallon bucket. I guess the two 5 gallon carboys aren't a complete waste though, since I can still use them for a secondary, right? Should I go buy a 6.5 gallon carboy as a primary fermentor, or will my bucket work just fine?

Thanks again

You could use the 5 gallon carboys for secondary if you wanted to. It is a fairly common practice to skip doing secondaries. I have a 5 gallon Better Bottle that I rarely use any more.

You could try to take at least one of them back to the LHBS and trade for a larger one.

I don't know if you would want to inform them that not many (if any) here agree with their advice.

 

[drunde77]

And as far as contamination, next time you brew and rack into the fermenters, rack a small portion into a smaller, sanitized (just as the fermenter) vessel and take a gravity reading, but then do nothing else other than seal it with an airlock. Take another reading a few days later and if it is the same, then your sanitation practices are where they need to be and waiting and re-racking before pitching your brews shouldn't concern you. If it has dropped, it can be a sign of infection.

Hope it helps,

Josh

This is an interesting concept for troubleshooting a streak of infections.... I like it!

 

[boscobeans]

I try to use a bucket with enough headspace to contain any and all krausen that forms. If you are familiar with your yeasts and keep temperatures on the low end this is not difficult.

In the beginning use a blow off tube to be sure, but once you get things worked out you can do most brews in the right sized bucket and have no problems..(there is always the exception of course, since no two fermentations are ever exactly the same.)

I don't like to see a half gallon or for that matter any amount of my beer leave the fermenter as blow off. It just seems like a waste to me.

OMO

bosco

 

[ctomlin]

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the replies. I think I'll just keep the two 5 gallons and pick up another 6.5 primary in the future so I can have two batches going at once and use the 5 gallons as the secondaries. Not sure when I will want two batches going at once, but you never know. For now I'll just use my bucket as the primary. I'll also pitch the yeast as soon as possible next time too; sounds like that is the much better option. Hopefully this current batch turns out alright

 

[Yooper]

Charlie Papazian is the auther of "The Joy of Homebrewing", and the blow-off the krausen tip is in that book.

It's true that krausen has terrible tasting stuff in it, but it's now known that you can leave the remnants of the krausen ring around the fermenter (don't taste that- it's icky!) and the krausen will fall back and to the bottom as trub. That means that you're not going to be bottling that krausen/trub stuff. It can blow off, of course, but it's not necessary. I think "old school" homebrewers haven't kept abreast of new thoughts and procedures, and both are valid techniques although the blow-off isn't necessary.

It's also true that some of the trub in the fermenter (particularly hot break) has been believed to lead to some off flavors. For the most part, though, that hasn't been the experience of many homebrewers. I know a few guys that do just what was described (racking off of the trub after it settles) when making beers such as a light lager so that it gives the "cleanest" flavor. Others whirlpool in the boil kettle to minimize trub going to the fermenter. Yet others pour it all in!

All are valid techniques. Most people with lots of experience will be open minded to trying other techniques, but still will develop a strong preference for a certain way. They should not be dismissed or ridiculed, as there are reasons for those techniques.

 

[Jon73]

Once again this is a fine thread to demonstrate how many different techniques are used, and how many work for a particular brewer.

I use a 6.5 gallon carboy with a blow off tube (my starters make it necessary) and have never had any issues.

I also, when the wort has cooled, rack into my bottling bucket and let it sit overnight on the counter. A fair amount of gunk falls out below the level of the spigot and all I have to do is drain it, via gravity, into my carboy. I get more crap out of my beer and aerate it at the same time. And for my own piece of mind, I know that the yeast starter and wort are the exact same temperature.

 

[Jon73]

Once again this is a fine thread to demonstrate how many different techniques are used, and how many work for a particular brewer.

I use a 6.5 gallon carboy with a blow off tube (my starters make it necessary) and have never had any issues.

I also, when the wort has cooled, rack into my bottling bucket and let it sit overnight on the counter. A fair amount of gunk falls out below the level of the spigot and all I have to do is drain it, via gravity, into my carboy. I get more crap out of my beer and aerate it at the same time. And for my own piece of mind, I know that the yeast starter and wort are the exact same temperature.

 

[RM-MN]

Why not buy a couple more fermenter buckets, you know, like for next week when you will get the urge to brew more than once. You can use the 5 gallon carboys to ferment something else that doesn't krausen like beer. Some kind of wine would be one idea. You could also use them for a beer that needs a long secondary like a barleywine or for racking onto some oak for a different flavor.

 

[zeg]

Charlie Papazian is the auther of "The Joy of Homebrewing", and the blow-off the krausen tip is in that book.

Yep, and Palmer also discusses it, I believe.

It's true that krausen has terrible tasting stuff in it, but it's now known that you can leave the remnants of the krausen ring around the fermenter (don't taste that- it's icky!) and the krausen will fall back and to the bottom as trub. That means that you're not going to be bottling that krausen/trub stuff. It can blow off, of course, but it's not necessary.

This is probably true, though if you blow it off, there is a bit less risk of some of that bitter trub finding its way into a bottle. Certainly that's a small risk, but balancing that with reducing efficiency by blowing off some liquid is a question of preference.

It's also true that some of the trub in the fermenter (particularly hot break) has been believed to lead to some off flavors. For the most part, though, that hasn't been the experience of many homebrewers.

I seem to recall reading (perhaps in the link given upthread a few posts) that the finding was that there was probably a perceptible difference, but opinions differed on which way was "better."

All are valid techniques. Most people with lots of experience will be open minded to trying other techniques, but still will develop a strong preference for a certain way. They should not be dismissed or ridiculed, as there are reasons for those techniques.

Yes! There aren't many flat out wrong techniques out there, even the "old school" methods usually have some basis. In most cases I can think of, the change in technique is because it's found that the old method is not necessary, but not actually harmful. (Though sometimes there is risk due to extra handling.)

I think both of these bits of advice fall into the preference category, though like most here, I don't follow either of them (though I do usually go to secondary and I don't have a strong aversion to losing some beer to blow-off).

 

[beergolf]

Thanks guys,
Sounds like I got some incorrect info. So, now I have two 5 gallon carboys, and a 6.5-ish gallon bucket. I guess the two 5 gallon carboys aren't a complete waste though, since I can still use them for a secondary, right? Should I go buy a 6.5 gallon carboy as a primary fermentor, or will my bucket work just fine?

Thanks again

I have a few 5 gallon carboys that I just use for smaller batches. Scale a recipe down to 4 gallons and they work fine.