Went to my LHBS yesterday and bought a vial of WLP002 to make a stepped starter for brewing my house Coffee Porter on Sunday. After 15 hours on the stir plate there is no sign of life. All attempts to resuscitate have failed
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Went to my LHBS yesterday and bought a vial of WLP002 to make a stepped starter for brewing my house Coffee Porter on Sunday. After 15 hours on the stir plate there is no sign of life. All attempts to resuscitate have failed
is 15 hours really long enough to call it dead? I've had starters which took almost a full week to show signs of life (yeast taken from a frozen yeast bank experiment, as well as a bottle-culture I recently did from an Ommegang three-eyed raven).. if your vial was a little old or maybe experienced some temp fluctuation in it's prior life, it may just be weak.
I know you want to brew sunday so time is of the essence for you, but maybe let it ride a while?
How was that yeast stored at the LHBS? Was it in the "free and reduced" bin perhaps?
I agree, after a week you'll know better what you've got.
If you paid full price, and it fails, tell them and ask for a replacement.
I agree, after a week you'll know better what you've got.
If you paid full price, and it fails, tell them and ask for a replacement.
Brew_G
Well-Known Member
Might be a problem if he wants to brew on Sunday!
My LHBS has 2 locations - one close by and the main location in town. Much less store traffic in the close by one so I need to do a better job of checking dates on yeast before walking out the door since this has happened to me there before. Had to go into town anyway this morning so went to the other location and got a fresher vial and have now added it to the flask. According to my DW this is the best beer I make so I can't afford to screw it up or run out
Firewalker11
Brewer
Let it spin, i say.
Mixing old and fresher yeast is not a good idea as this can lead to off flavours. You should have dumped the old and start a fresh one. Make sure that the tin foil is loosely on top of the flask. When I used tin foil for my first few tries I noticed that the tin foil gets sucked in and creates a very good seal with the flask. A lack of oxygen will stress the yeast and this will also lead to off flavours.
The date on the vial only means something if stored and handled yeast-properly. I have made successful starters from liquid yeast that was over a year past the "expiration/use by date," but always been stored around 38 degrees. It took 3 days to get the initial starter (1.020) completed, and another round of 2 days to ramp up to pitching volume.
Sounds like the first vial you got was mishandled at some time. Hope the 2nd one does better.
Sounds like the first vial you got was mishandled at some time. Hope the 2nd one does better.
Yeah, I've successfully stepped up old yeast before, too, so I'm thinking this one was some issue other than just a few days past the best before date. The other vial I got today is only a couple of weeks newer but it already is showing signs of life. If I can't brew Sunday then I'll brew whenever the yeast will allow it.
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
I assume the reason for this statement was given in your post #13.
I had not heard that mixing old and new yeast causes off flavours. Doesn't seem that would apply if the "old" yeast are dead.
The reason I posted that is because I know he is using tin foil from the photo. When you use a foam stopper, you get about a inch of krausen/oxygen foam formed on the top layer of the flask.
There is a greater chance of mutation with mixing old and new yeast even if the old yeast are dead, you do not want to feed the yeast anything but DME and yeast nutrient. But you are right, I am assuming some of the old yeast is alive, hopefully they are not.
The best before date on the first vial was 6/18/2015 and the date on the "fresher" one was 7/4/2015. So, I'm assuming that difference is insignificant regarding mixing old and new.
"It just goes to show you, it's always something." - Gilda Radner
"It just goes to show you, it's always something." - Gilda Radner
i would give it more time. i pitched some really old yeast into a starter and it took a while but it made more fresh yeast.
after about 24 hours i noticed that it didnt take off and its usually done by then. took it off the stir plate and put it aside to clean. forgot about it for a few days. come back to clean it and i notice that its fermented and i have new yeast
after about 24 hours i noticed that it didnt take off and its usually done by then. took it off the stir plate and put it aside to clean. forgot about it for a few days. come back to clean it and i notice that its fermented and i have new yeast
andrewmaixner
Well-Known Member
Citation? How could having a portion of weak/dead cells of the exact same strain in a starter lead to off-flavors? Is that not basically what making a starter from an older slurry is?
I wonder how foil over the top of the flask will seal it? When the yeast start fermentation they will create co2 which will increase pressure inside the flask, loosening the foil seal.
Weak cells, being stressed in a stronger wort, (the brew, not the starter) can lead to off flavors. In the case of a starter you are pitching a small amount so off flavors would be minimal. Decanting the spent liquid would minimize the risk even further. So I would not worry at all about mixing the yeasts.
I have not had longer than 36 hours to see activity in a starter on my stirplate. And usually see signs in less than 12 hours. Sometimes the only thing I see are very tiny bubbles rising in the starter, I have to look very closely with a flashlight to even see them.
Weak cells, being stressed in a stronger wort, (the brew, not the starter) can lead to off flavors. In the case of a starter you are pitching a small amount so off flavors would be minimal. Decanting the spent liquid would minimize the risk even further. So I would not worry at all about mixing the yeasts.
I have not had longer than 36 hours to see activity in a starter on my stirplate. And usually see signs in less than 12 hours. Sometimes the only thing I see are very tiny bubbles rising in the starter, I have to look very closely with a flashlight to even see them.
the vortex is what sucks the tin foil down and creates a seal. When I seal my flask with tinfoil, i make sure it is loose but no nasties can get in but when I awake the next morning I find that I have a fairly tight, almost packaged like seal which is depriving my workers of some much needed oxygen.
Why i am saying it was a bad idea for "him" specifically this case, is if the old yeast was in a not so ideal environment and it started to ferment then it would lead to off flavours, stressing the yeast can lead to off flavours, so thanks for clarifying my error.
Very interesting.. I have not closely looked at the beginning of my starters but none have ever been tightly sealed once fermentation has started. But, I just lightly form the foil over the top of the flask.
For reference, this is what WLP002 normally looks like after 15-20 hours on my stir plate. ESB this weekend!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1439479763.990610.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1439479763.990610.jpg
