Qusetion on first extract brew...

[thorson138]

I got an extract kit from NB called Houblonmonstre Tripel IPA. I am anxious to get it going and just have a few questions before I get going on it.

1. The procedure calls for a secondary lasting a month but states this can be eliminated by leaving the batch in primary for an extra week. If I go this route will it change my finished product in a big way?

2. Do I absolutely have to have a starter for my WYEAST 3522 Belgian Ardennes Yeast smack pack? If so do I have to let it incubate for a full day?

3. I have a couple primary fermenters, one is about a 7 gallon capacity and the other one is a 9 gallon tuff tank. If I am making a 5 gallon batch, can I use one of these fermenters without a blow off tube?

4. If I don't do a secondary ferment, will the headspace in the primary fermenters I mentioned ruin my batch?

I appreciate any advice or input. Thanks in advance.

Mike

 

[Yooper]

1. Yes.

2. YES! That's a "big" beer. You need to make a starter. Consult mrmalty.com and click on "yeast pitching calculator" to see what size you'll need. It'll be more like three days, because you'll need lots of yeast.

3. I'd probably use the 7 gallon fermenter. I use a 7.5 gallon bucket most of the time, and I've only needed a blow off tube once.

4. No, because you won't be opening it up and letting the co2 "blanket" out. And it's only going to be in there 3-4 weeks or so.

One last thing- temperature control is crucial. That yeast is good up to 85 degrees or so, but one thing to keep in mind is that a "hot" fermentation can be explosive. (See answer #3- that one blow off tube was a "hot" fermenting wheat beer). I'd pitch it in the high 60s, and let it start. The higher the temperature, the more phenolic it will be. Many people say, "For hot weather, do a Belgian!" but I still think temperature control is important because too-high phenols leave a plastic-y clove taste that can be unpleasant. I'd keep it in the high 60s for at least the first few days, then let it rise to room temperature, if possible.

 

[thorson138]

Thanks for the quick reply Yooper! Given your advice I'll definitely do a starter as directed.

You answered "yes" to my question #1 concerning leaving the batch in primary for an extra week os so as opposed to using a secondary fermenter. My question is what type of outcome will this have on the finished product? Is the secondary ferment primarily for clearing purposes, or does it have a profound effect on taste, aroma, mouthfeel, and those types of aspects?

Thanks for any additional input.

Mike

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the quick reply Yooper! Given your advice I'll definitely do a starter as directed.

You answered "yes" to my question #1 concerning leaving the batch in primary for an extra week os so as opposed to using a secondary fermenter. My question is what type of outcome will this have on the finished product? Is the secondary ferment primarily for clearing purposes, or does it have a profound effect on taste, aroma, mouthfeel, and those types of aspects?

Thanks for any additional input.

Mike

I haven't noticed any difference between beers I've kept in a secondary and beers I haven't. I will use a secondary for oaking, and sometimes dryhopping, but overall I rarely use one for beer.

 

[AlaskaWortChiller]

I find that if I secondary for a couple of weeks it will make the beer more clear.
The flavor difference seems to be minimal.
I usually primary 2 weeks but I find that even a three week primary will not clear things up as well as 2-3 weeks in secondary.

 

[thorson138]

Thanks for the replies... I put my OG numbers in at mrmalty.com and it calculated that I would need almost a 4 liter starter for this batch. Did I read that right??? The OG of this beer will be 1.082 according to the directions...

My Wyeast smack pach is good for gravity up to about 1.060 or so according to the package.

I have never made a starter before so I'm a bit worried about f****in' it up. From what I gather, to make a starter, I need to go ahead and put my wort together, take out a pretty good portion of it (3.9 liters), pitch the smack pack yeast into it, cover it with foil and let it incubate for at least 12 hours.

Then basically pour the starter into the fermenter with the wort and let it go. Am I correct???

Thanks all!

Mike

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the replies... I put my OG numbers in at mrmalty.com and it calculated that I would need almost a 4 liter starter for this batch. Did I read that right??? The OG of this beer will be 1.082 according to the directions...

My Wyeast smack pach is good for gravity up to about 1.060 or so according to the package.

I have never made a starter before so I'm a bit worried about f****in' it up. From what I gather, to make a starter, I need to go ahead and put my wort together, take out a pretty good portion of it (3.9 liters), pitch the smack pack yeast into it, cover it with foil and let it incubate for at least 12 hours.

Then basically pour the starter into the fermenter with the wort and let it go. Am I correct???

Thanks all!

Mike

Well, not really. That would be doing it the hard way.

You could buy some extract dry malt extract- it comes in 1 pound and 3 pound bags. Using 8 cups of water, start boiling the water and then add 2 cups DME. Boil that for a couple of minutes, then put it in an ice bath to cool. Gently pour that into a big sanitized container, and add the yeast. Cover with sanitized foil. Give it a shake a couple of times a day as you walk by. After two days, you can brew your wort and add that yeast starter to your brew.

It's not hard at all, but it is another step. You've picked a "big" beer for your first brew!

I know the smackpacks say they are "pitchable for worts up to 1.060" or something like that. But that's not completely true. It would be true if the yeast was direct from the manufacturer to you and brand new, but it's been shipped and sitting around in stores. Some stores take great care of their yeast, some don't. I would recommend a starter for ANY beer using liquid yeast, but especially one over 1.040 or so.

 

[thorson138]

Thanks Yooper, that does sound easier than what I was getting ready to do. I'll try to get out and pick up a pound of DME to make a starter with probably next Friday or so.

Thanks for giving me an easier method that looks like it will be quicker.

Mike

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper, that does sound easier than what I was getting ready to do. I'll try to get out and pick up a pound of DME to make a starter with probably next Friday or so.

Thanks for giving me an easier method that looks like it will be quicker.

Mike

Not only easier and quicker (but that's important!) but it'll be better for the wort, too. No matter how great your sanitizing is, I always hesitate to leave fresh wort sitting out waiting for yeast. It can allow any other microbes to gain a foothold before you pitch the yeast. Sanitizing helps, of course, but the idea behind pitching the yeast ASAP is so that the yeast can outcompete any unwanted wild yeast and stray bacteria that made it in there. A proper yeast starter and great sanitation will ensure a good fermentation.

 

[AlaskaWortChiller]

I know the smackpacks say they are "pitchable for worts up to 1.060" or something like that. But that's not completely true. It would be true if the yeast was direct from the manufacturer to you and brand new, but it's been shipped and sitting around in stores. Some stores take great care of their yeast, some don't. I would recommend a starter for ANY beer using liquid yeast, but especially one over 1.040 or so.

Yooper, when using dry yeast like S-05 on a high gravity wort, do you make a starter or just buy more yeast packets? The price at my local store is like $2 / dry packet and $9 / smack pack so I am thinking about giving the safale a try. How many packets would you need for a 1.080 wort as described here?

 

[thorson138]

Good point... Can I just get another smack pack or two instead of doing a starter???

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, when using dry yeast like S-05 on a high gravity wort, do you make a starter or just buy more yeast packets? The price at my local store is like $2 / dry packet and $9 / smack pack so I am thinking about giving the safale a try. How many packets would you need for a 1.080 wort as described here?

Good point... Can I just get another smack pack or two instead of doing a starter???

Yes, you can buy more yeast instead of making a starter! I like to consult mrmalty.com and click on the "yeast pitching calculator" to find the exact amount that would be optimal.

For dry yeast, I never make a starter. I've read that rehydrating is desirable, but not a starter for dry yeast. It has to do with the dry yeast and cell wall permeablity- I don't pretend to understand. But often two packages of a dry yeast is enough for many beers.

 

[Brewham]

According to http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

You need 16 grams of dry yeast or 4.61 liters of starter. That's a big starter!

 

[thorson138]

Thanks all... I need 2 more smack packs to pitch according to mrmalty if I don't want to mess with a starter. That's like 300 billion yeast cells, give or take a few lost during shipping and storage etc.

Thanks again folks!

Mike

 

[AlaskaWortChiller]

Thanks all... I need 2 more smack packs to pitch according to mrmalty if I don't want to mess with a starter. That's like 300 billion yeast cells, give or take a few lost during shipping and storage etc.

Thanks again folks!

Mike

I know everyone around here loves Mr. Malty, but sometimes I wonder if it gives the most accurate advice....for example, I have some Wyeast 1056 that was manufactured 7/11/10 (2 weeks ago) and Mr. Malty says only 86% of the cells will be viable. Will the viability really drop that much in only 2 weeks if refrigerated consistently?

To brew a 1.052 wort (not a relaly big beer) Mr. Malty says I would need more than 2 packs of this very fresh yeast with no starter OR a simple starter of more than 1/2 gallon size. Keep in mind that at 1/2 gallon nearly 10% of the volume of a 5.5 gallon batch would be the starter! Since the starter SG is supposed to be around 1.040, adding this volume of starter could significantly lower your total OG, especially for big beers. Does anyone else think this seems a bit excessive for a 1.052 wort? I am new to AG but I have done extract brews in the 1.050-1.060 range and consistently gotten the attenuation advertised by Wyeast with just a fully inflated smack pack or a simple 1 pint starter when Mr. Malty has recommended 2 or even 3 packs and/or 1/2 gallon+ starters.

I am not a brew scientist (yet) and I have no real argument to make regarding the formulas or assumptions of Mr. Malty. It just seems anecdotally like it consistently recommends bigger starters and higher cell counts than I would have expected to be necessary for medium sized brews.

I tend to go with the starter size given in the White Lab FAQ: 1 pint for OG less than 1.060 and/or simple yeast activation, 2 pints for higher OG or old yeast. I have not done one of those giant 12% imperial beers so maybe those require a larger starter.

 

[thorson138]

Interesting info Alaska...

 

[AlaskaWortChiller]

Interesting info Alaska...

Thorson, I think you'd be fine with your 1.082 brew using a single smack pack and a 2 pint starter that is built up over 36-48 hours. This is assuming that your yeast is within 2 or 3 months of the date on the package. If the yeast is older consider using more packs.

If you don't want to use a starter, 2 packs is probably enough.

 

[tenchu_11]

Yeah, I don't trust mr. Malty either. Told me my yeast had only 40% potentcy after a few weeks from productioin date. Wanted me to make a huge gallon starter. I think most modern strains are pretty good i just make a 32oz starter with 1 1/2 cups of DME and let it go for about 20 hours. Mr.Malty might be a good tool but just caused more doubt than help..atleast for me. Not sure about Wyeast but with Whitelabs vials,..let me back track. I order my brew kits from a brew store in Arizona sitts in the mail for about 5 days and i've pitched white labs yeast straight into the wort and in about 2 days (i don't mess with it) my brew is bubbling away. Now i'm using starters and usually take off in 10 hours (at most), I don't even bother with Mr. Malty.."I trust" the manufacturers and with a 32oz starter and proper sanitasion..it should be good.

 

[thorson138]

Thanks a bunch folks... The date on my smack pack is the 9th of June 2010, that means fresh to me. I don't have any DME for a starter, I guess I should keep some on hand for just such an occasion, huh?

I may just grab one more smack pack and get started. Again, I really appreciate the replies.

Mike