Quick sparge question

[YukonLT]

Any reason you can't drain off your first runnings into a sanitized brew bucket, instead of your brew kettle? Say your only source for heating up water is your kettle, and you need it to heat up your batch sparge water while you are mashing in. You store the first runnings in the bucket, then the sparge you drain into your brew kettle, and then pour the first runnings into the kettle after. Any reason against this?

Only thing I can think of is maybe it would be too warm for the food grade bucket or something? Educate me fellas!

 

[fartinmartin]

That's not a problem, have done it loads. Almost anything goes pre boil, once boil is on then every thing must be sterile.
I have mashed loads in food grade plastic.
But why are you not doing the whole mash in the plastic bucket, I do, I syphon out of the bucket with a slotted pipe on the end of a plastic pipe.

 

[Dan]

^^ Yes, what fartinmartin said!

I wouldn't even worry about sanitizing the bucket, just wash it. Pre-boil there is a lot of lattitude on sanitization.

 

[YukonLT]

Thanks guys, I figured I would be ok. I built a new 10 gallon cooler mash tun that I will be mashing in

 

[Dan]

What are you using for a manifold?

 

[YukonLT]

What are you using for a manifold?

Stainless steel screen. I'll attach a couple pics of the tun I built.

 

[Dan]

Looks good!

 

[masonsjax]

Alternatively you can batch sparge with cold water. I never heat my sparge water. I've noticed no measurable negative impact in many years of brewing this way.

 

[YukonLT]

Alternatively you can batch sparge with cold water. I never heat my sparge water. I've noticed no measurable negative impact in many years of brewing this way.

Really? This is something I have never heard of.

 

[YukonLT]

Looks good!

Thanks! I thought it came out pretty nice

 

[sparkeee277]

Just a heads up, when I went from a stainless screen like you have to a false bottom, my efficiency came up by like 10%. So if you aren't getting the level of conversion you are after you'll know why. Food for thought....

 

[masonsjax]

Heating sparge water is standard practice in fly sparging, as is doing a mashout. In batch sparging the wort is boiling long before any potential problems would manifest. The advantage of using hot water for batch sparging is that you get to boil a little quicker. So heat the water now or later, doesn't matter. I prefer to sparge cold and start working up to boil while still collecting wort. Just another way of doing things.

 

[sparkeee277]

If you batch sparge cold the sugars that are attached to the grain will not release as well. Using hot water help break the sugars (and some proteins) free from the grain so can be lautered easier. Kind of like when you're doing the dishes with cold water and the food sticks to the plates, then you use hot water and it comes right off.
It would be a cool experiment to split a mash side by side in 2 pots, cold sparge one and hot sparge the other and compare gravities.

 

[YukonLT]

Just a heads up, when I went from a stainless screen like you have to a false bottom, my efficiency came up by like 10%. So if you aren't getting the level of conversion you are after you'll know why. Food for thought....

I toyed with doing the false bottom, but talked to some people that said they were really unhappy with their results. Something to do with not having enough foundation water, and you have to rig the screen up higher than just setting it on the bottom. A couple guys I know have the set up I just built and get great efficiency results, so I figured I would try it first. The false bottom is still a possibility if I end up not liking this set up.

 

[sparkeee277]

I toyed with doing the false bottom, but talked to some people that said they were really unhappy with their results. Something to do with not having enough foundation water, and you have to rig the screen up higher than just setting it on the bottom. A couple guys I know have the set up I just built and get great efficiency results, so I figured I would try it first. The false bottom is still a possibility if I end up not liking this set up.

Yea if the efficiency is all good use it. For me for whatever reason the screen setup left me a little light. It took about twice as much vorlauf to get the grain bed set too, but with the false bottom when you get to the end of the running, if you don't stop in time the false bottom lifts up a bit and lets all kinds of particles out. I guess both have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[YukonLT]

but with the false bottom when you get to the end of the running, if you don't stop in time the false bottom lifts up a bit and lets all kinds of particles out. I guess both have advantages and disadvantages.

Huh, never heard that before. Thanks for the info man...

 

[Yooper]

If you batch sparge cold the sugars that are attached to the grain will not release as well. Using hot water help break the sugars (and some proteins) free from the grain so can be lautered easier. Kind of like when you're doing the dishes with cold water and the food sticks to the plates, then you use hot water and it comes right off.
It would be a cool experiment to split a mash side by side in 2 pots, cold sparge one and hot sparge the other and compare gravities.

No, you can do a cold water sparge with no loss of efficiency. Kai Troester has publish the results of his experiments on this.

Sugars are more soluble in hotter water generally, but in batch sparging it's about the stirring/agitating and not about the temperature.

 

[masonsjax]

If you batch sparge cold the sugars that are attached to the grain will not release as well. Using hot water help break the sugars (and some proteins) free from the grain so can be lautered easier. Kind of like when you're doing the dishes with cold water and the food sticks to the plates, then you use hot water and it comes right off.
It would be a cool experiment to split a mash side by side in 2 pots, cold sparge one and hot sparge the other and compare gravities.

I actually did do that experiment, which is how I was able to claim that there were no measurable negative effects. As Yooper said, Kai did extensive experimentation and came to the same conclusion. Either way is fine, just don't want people to feel they must sparge with hot water when cold will also work.

 

[sparkeee277]

Well, I guess I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm not comfortable changing my approach just yet..... I wonder why not very many people use cold water to sparge if that is the case.......
What about for wheat beers? Don't you think that would lead to a stuck sparge?

 

[masonsjax]

I really don't think the temperature of the water makes a difference there. I've never had a stuck sparge on my system (cooler with SS braid) and I do 50%+ wheat/rye beers all the time without rice hulls. I don't know, but my system just doesn't get stuck, and I crush fairly fine. *shrug*

 

[Bobby_M]

Just a heads up, when I went from a stainless screen like you have to a false bottom, my efficiency came up by like 10%. So if you aren't getting the level of conversion you are after you'll know why. Food for thought....

You have to specify which sparging method you use for this anecdote to be complete. I can see a false bottom increasing efficiency for a fly sparger.

"level of conversion" is more of a function of mash temp, pH, and grind quality. I understand you meant "extraction".

The thing about cold water sparging is that it CAN end up lowering your efficiency if you hadn't reached full conversion already. In theory the conversion can be sitting at 90% due to a coarse grind or a low diastatic grain bill and a hot water sparge or mashout can get you the last 10% without even planning for it.

The other thing a cold sparge definitely does is waste time (if you care about such things). Batch spargers that leverage a single kettle/burner can add so much heat to the process prior to the mash being complete. A cold sparge means you're basically starting over with 6.5 gallons at 110F and now has to go through a 100F rise to boil. I'd personally rather start at 170F.

 

[sparkeee277]

You have to specify which sparging method you use for this anecdote to be complete. I can see a false bottom increasing efficiency for a fly sparger.

"level of conversion" is more of a function of mash temp, pH, and grind quality. I understand you meant "extraction".


I didn't think I needed to specify because the rest on my comments in this thread specifically refer to batch sparging. And yes, poor choice of words..... I should have said "efficiency".

Can you explain you're opinion on a false bottom only increasing efficiency when you fly sparge?

 

[Bobby_M]

Sure. The process of batch sparging is just about diluting the sugar in the grain and then separating the wort from the grain. Any separation mechanism that doesn't involve leaving wort behind in the tun is just as efficient as any other. The reason why false bottoms are ideal for fly sparging is that it promotes a laminar gradient of sugar in the tun as the sparge is delivered on top. That's a long winded way of saying, prevents channeling or dead zones.

 

[masonsjax]

The same amount of water needs to be heated to boiling whether it happens before sparge or after. I see the point though that hot sparge can be heating up during the mash to save time overall. It's a trade off, time vs effort and a spare pot.

I've also been experimenting with a 20-30min mash as per some threads here discussing some breweries doing the same. The rest temperature has to be adjusted and you definitely lose a little efficiency, but in the interest of a quick brewday, I have had good success overall.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I guess I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm not comfortable changing my approach just yet..... I wonder why not very many people use cold water to sparge if that is the case.......
What about for wheat beers? Don't you think that would lead to a stuck sparge?

To go back to the cold vs warm sparging for a moment- think of it this way. Your washing machine (or at least mine does) has only cold water rinse cycles. That's because it's the agitation and the clean rinse water that rinses the soap off the clothes. The same is true with batch sparging.

For fly sparging, which doesn't rely on agitation, there would be a difference.

I love batch sparging, and sometimes go back and forth between fly sparging and continuous sparging. I think I might experiment with no-sparge. For me, I get 75% efficiency with my system whether I fly or batch sparge (and I always sparge with 173 degree water no matter which because I have a HERMS with an HLT) but others may find a difference. It really depends on the system.

As was mentioned, a false bottom or something like that is really needed for fly sparging, but with a batch sparge any sort of lautering device is fine.

 

[YukonLT]

Love the comments and discussion here guys, thanks for the input!