Quick grits vs. Corn meal vs. Corn starch vs. Corn flakes

[jcorn]

Looking for a replacement for flaked maize in a batch of traditional all grain 6 row based cream ale.

Not wanting to cook and gelatanize anything. Just wanting to find a nice substitute to be able to add to my mash in substitution of flaked corn. I have read multiple pieces of conflicting info that say this and that have to have a cereal mash, cooked or does not. Just trying to dig into what I can use in my mash to get a nice somewhat corny flavor and simple sub to my old school cream ale. I already intentionally introduce dms into the brew for a somewhat cooked corn flavor. Thank you in advance!

 

[Rockit]

Cracked corn provides the flavor in many shine recipes where all the fermentables are provided by table sugar.

 

[jcorn]

How do you extract the starch from it to be able to convert it to sugar in a mash?

 

[casualbrewer]

Instant grits will work. Never really noticed a corn taste though..

 

[jcorn]

I have seen people using instant grits. But you cannot find any plain ones in the store. The only ones I find have sodium, butter or other stuff in them

 

[IslandLizard]

Flaked corn (the hard yellow gritty stuff you buy at your LHBS or from sacks at grain buys) does not need to be boiled or cereal mashed. It's has been pre-gelatinized (at least to some degree*) during the flaking process and can be added to the mash directly.

*The key lies in how much it is pre-gelatinized. I have found mixed reports, and that stuff is almost as hard as small rocks.
Although it may not be absolutely necessary, I prefer to give it a 30' boil in plenty of water, that "thin polenta" then becomes my hot liquor for the mash. I get great mash efficiency that way.

Altogether it may add almost an hour to my brew day, but it's very straightforward, and since I have my kettle out already, it really doesn't bother me. The kettle almost cleans itself when I heat the sparge water in it.

 

[Morrey]

How do you extract the starch from it to be able to convert it to sugar in a mash?

When I make corn washes that will be used in the distillation process, I use enzymes in the mash. I add high temp enzymes to the cracked corn mash at 180F, let it cool naturally, then add alpha amylase enzymes at 145F. These two enzymes convert the starches into fermentable sugars. However, let me assure you this is a long process.

I have all but quit that and use flaked maize with alpha amylase at 145F and get real nice conversion in around 3 hours.

This is not the answer to your OP, just a response how I do enzyme conversion with cracked corn w/o a long cooking or boiling process which is another way to convert. Corn is difficult to convert.

 

[dwhite60]

Fine ground corn meal MAY be small enough to mash without cooking first.

Have to try it to find out.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[Rockit]

Just some 6 row for sufficient enzymes and you're good to go.

 

[IslandLizard]

I forgot to mention, I do run the flaked corn through my mill at a 0.024" gap, like all my flaked stuff. It turns it into coarse "grits." BTW, that stuff is hard! You really need to wear those goggles. I wonder if it wears down the knurl?

 

[jcorn]

Fine ground corn meal MAY be small enough to mash without cooking first.

Have to try it to find out.

All the Best,
D. White

Out of curiosity, why would it matter if it is grounded or finely grounded to be mashable? It says degerminated on it. Doesn't that mean it will mash without cooking?

 

[dwhite60]

Out of curiosity, why would it matter if it is grounded or finely grounded to be mashable? It says degerminated on it. Doesn't that mean it will mash without cooking?

Smaller the particle size the easier for mash water, and enzymes to get into it.

Big pieces would have to be cereal mashed or at least cooked/boiled to gelatanize the starches. Smaller particles may just gelatanize from the hot mash water.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[jcorn]

Smaller the particle size the easier for mash water, and enzymes to get into it.

Big pieces would have to be cereal mashed or at least cooked/boiled to gelatanize the starches. Smaller particles may just gelatanize from the hot mash water.

All the Best,
D. White

Oh I see now! I am going to try and mash corn meal. I wanna see what happens now. Maybe I could even powder it in my grain mill on the smallest setting to help?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Corn will gelatinise at normal mash temperatures, just VERY slowly (up to days, depending on the grain size).

I have crushed corn fairly coarsely in a grain mill (0.375") and it is REALLY hard on the mill. This is still not fine enough to put into a normal mash. Maybe, if you could get a corn (corona) type mill, and grind to flour (or buy polenta) you might get away with putting it in the mash. Why are you so intent on not using flaked corn? IMO, it's an excellent and easy to use product.

On the other hand, the worse that happens with trying the corn meal is that you won't get much out of it (low efficiency). It won't hurt anything.

 

[xykomarcal]

I eventually use popcorn, prepared with a microwave oven in a paper bag (alone, without butter or salt).
It's fine to prevent clogging of the recirculation process and provide enough sugars to the mash, just like the flaked corn.

Cheers

 

[IslandLizard]

Corn will gelatinise at normal mash temperatures, just VERY slowly (up to days, depending on the grain size).

I have crushed corn fairly coarsely in a grain mill (0.375") and it is REALLY hard on the mill. This is still not fine enough to put into a normal mash. Maybe, if you could get a corn (corona) type mill, and grind to flour (or buy polenta) you might get away with putting it in the mash. Why are you so intent on not using flaked corn? IMO, it's an excellent and easy to use product.

On the other hand, the worse that happens with trying the corn meal is that you won't get much out of it (low efficiency). It won't hurt anything.

Ouch!
I read somewhere that grinding dried corn kernels on a grain mill is an absolute no-no. I'm surprised you didn't damage it in the process. When I mill flaked corn on a 0.024-0.026" gap it still scares me, and I'm not sure if it may cause problems in the long run.

When I bought my mill, the first I ran through it was a pound of cheap generic rice a few times, to clean the machining oils and remnants off. The rice came out gray/black. I followed it up with some old barley malt on a narrow gap. The milling of the rice sounded horrible. The flaked corn makes a similar sound.

But the smaller the pieces the easier and faster they hydrate and gelatinize. The more gelatinized they are the quicker and the better the enzymes can get to work on them.

I really don't trust the commercial flaked corn to fully gelatinize that quickly in the mash either. Hence the pre-boil. I guess you could soak them from a few to 24 hours?

I don't see the reluctance to pre-boiling either. We've actually spent more time talking about it than a pre-boil would take.

 

[jcorn]

I eventually use popcorn, prepared with a microwave oven in a paper bag (alone, without butter or salt).
It's fine to prevent clogging of the recirculation process and provide enough sugars to the mash, just like the flaked corn.

Cheers

Popcorn is a great idea! I would imagine you would have to use alot of it though? It would take up a ton of volume in the mash?

 

[xykomarcal]

Popcorn is a great idea! I would imagine you would have to use alot of it though? It would take up a ton of volume in the mash?

Certainly you'll need a bigger volume, but the popcorn will wilt a little when wet. Just have to test it first.

 

[MagicRat]

I used quick grits as a 1/1 replacement for flaked corn to brew an award winning recipe. OG and FG were pretty much spot on and it tasted great. It was really hazy, though. Not sure if that was some effect from the quick grits or not. My beer is never perfectly clear and I'm not all that concerned about clarity but this looked more like a hefe.

 

[IslandLizard]

Popcorn is a great idea! I would imagine you would have to use alot of it though? It would take up a ton of volume in the mash?

Torrefied corn!

Making popcorn is easy, but yeah, 3-4 pounds of it will take a while. You may burn out your hot air popper too. If you do it in a kettle, it may add some burnt or caramel flavors.

I wonder if you can run the popped corn through a mill first? You may need to weigh or push it down with a flat tamper.

All in all I think these alternatives take way more time and effort than boiling it for 30'. I use about 4-5 gallons of water for 3 pounds of flaked and milled corn. At that ratio it's a thin polenta which then becomes the strike water for the mash. I can't see how that's an encumbrance on a brew day.

 

[jcorn]

Torrefied corn!

Making popcorn is easy, but yeah, 3-4 pounds of it will take a while. You may burn out your hot air popper too. If you do it in a kettle, it may add some burnt or caramel flavors.

I wonder if you can run the popped corn through a mill first? You may need to weigh or push it down with a flat tamper.

All in all I think these alternatives take way more time and effort than boiling it for 30'. I use about 4-5 gallons of water for 3 pounds of flaked and milled corn. At that ratio it's a thin polenta which then becomes the strike water for the mash. I can't see how that's an encumbrance on a brew day.

I agree! Couldn't you just mill it fine, not pop it and just mash it that way?

 

[Beachtags]

I know this thread is a year old.... But I use popcorn all the time in some brews. Especially my cream ale. I've done up to 4lbs in a cheap air popper from a big box store. It takes approximately 20 minutes to pop 2 lbs and 2lbs popped fills a 10gallon igloo or Rubbermaid cooler mash tun. I pop the night before brew days directly into the mash tun. Strike water goes in on top in the morning. Popcorn shrivels into almost nothing and then I stir in my grains. No milling popcorn (not all kernels pop so they will ruin your grain mill). Absorption is the same, no need to alter your ratios, and I believe it does help with lautering. Flaked maize works just fine... But it runs $3 a lb where popcorn runs me $0.95 or less..... And my kids love to pop it for me. Gives me a chance to get them involved in brewing

 

[jimmyjusa]

I know this thread is a year old.... But I use popcorn all the time in some brews. Especially my cream ale. I've done up to 4lbs in a cheap air popper from a big box store. It takes approximately 20 minutes to pop 2 lbs and 2lbs popped fills a 10gallon igloo or Rubbermaid cooler mash tun. I pop the night before brew days directly into the mash tun. Strike water goes in on top in the morning. Popcorn shrivels into almost nothing and then I stir in my grains. No milling popcorn (not all kernels pop so they will ruin your grain mill). Absorption is the same, no need to alter your ratios, and I believe it does help with lautering. Flaked maize works just fine... But it runs $3 a lb where popcorn runs me $0.95 or less..... And my kids love to pop it for me. Gives me a chance to get them involved in brewing

Interesting, i may have to try the popcorn method for a cream ale