Questions: sour worting with lacto + pedio, no boil

[sweetcell]

i brewed up a batch of 1.047 wort yesterday. threw in 3 oz of aged hops.

i filled a 5-gallon carboy up to the neck. i pitched a mix of l. brevis, l. delbrueckii, and pedio (all from Wyeast). i'm holding it at 95*F. once i get a decent sour character, i will cool to 70*F, transfer to a larger carboy, aerate, and pitch sacch (saison) and a brett blend.

Questions:

1) has anyone ever held pedio at those temps? should i expect anything specific? i'm under the impression that all bacteria like higher temps, so it'll just multiply faster. i'm not expecting any flavor contributions from the pedio for months.

2) any issue with not boiling the wort between the lacto/pedio and the yeast? will the bacterial population be too high?

thanks!

 

[BGBC]

i brewed up a batch of 1.047 wort yesterday. threw in 3 oz of aged hops.

i filled a 5-gallon carboy up to the neck. i pitched a mix of l. brevis, l. delbrueckii, and pedio (all from Wyeast). i'm holding it at 95*F. once i get a decent sour character, i will cool to 70*F, transfer to a larger carboy, aerate, and pitch sacch (saison) and a brett blend.

Questions:

1) has anyone ever held pedio at those temps? should i expect anything specific? i'm under the impression that all bacteria like higher temps, so it'll just multiply faster. i'm not expecting any flavor contributions from the pedio for months.

So why not wait to pitch it until you pitch the sacch/brett blend? I know you've pitched it already, but just curious.

2) any issue with not boiling the wort between the lacto/pedio and the yeast? will the bacterial population be too high?

thanks!

I sour wort my gose (lacto starter from grain), then pitch sacch to finish after 48-72 hours. No issues with the final product.

I'm sure the result would be different if you did boil in between, but should still be good. Maybe pitch the sacch/brett a little earlier in the souring process, since you know the pedio could continue to sour down the road.

 

[ColoHox]

As with most of the bacteria in this family, there is a ton of variability among strains.

Any idea what species/strain is in that Wyeast pedio? Most species prefer warm temps (90-100F) but the paricular species found in most beer spoilage events (P. damnosus) prefers 70-80F, but will grow okay at ~95F.

Most of the bacterial fermentations are self-limiting, the bacteria (and any supplemental Sacc yeast or wild yeast) eventually produce a hostile environment and the cells are deactivated, so you don't have to kill them. Boiling also boils off many volatile flavors produced by the bugs.

What would be your concern with a high bacterial population?

http://www.microbialcellfactories.com/content/8/1/3

UC Davis Enology

The genus Pediococcus Good stuff starts on page 125.

 

[sweetcell]

thanks for the replies, team.

folks boil their soured wort before pitching sacch in order to prevent infection in their cold-side equipment. since that isn't an issue for me, i was wondering if there was any other pressing reason to boil. sounds like the answer is no.

So why not wait to pitch it until you pitch the sacch/brett blend? I know you've pitched it already, but just curious.

i pitched both together because i didn't have a choice - they came together, pre-mixed. TNGabe hooked me up with the jar of brevis/delbrueckii/pedio. i don't have the patience to separate out the colonies manually

Any idea what species/strain is in that Wyeast pedio? Most species prefer warm temps (90-100F) but the paricular species found in most beer spoilage events (P. damnosus) prefers 70-80F, but will grow okay at ~95F.

it's damnosus according to this person who got a reply from WY.

Most of the bacterial fermentations are self-limiting, the bacteria (and any supplemental Sacc yeast or wild yeast) eventually produce a hostile environment and the cells are deactivated, so you don't have to kill them. Boiling also boils off many volatile flavors produced by the bugs.

right, but i was afraid of how low that limit was. based on what i've read today, looks like lacto will stop itself at 3.8 in the short term, which would be just fine with me.

and thanks for the links!

 

[jnacey]

Lacto will go lower than that. My latest just dropped down to 3.4. If it drops too low, you may have problems with a sacc fermentation. Brett will do well at the lower pH.

 

[sweetcell]

in case anyone cares: i pulled the plug on the heater after 48 hours. very, very faint bubbles rising through the beer, had to shine a light through the neck to see them. i got a little burst of bubbles when i shook the carboy. i was expecting something a little more vigorous so i was a little concerned. smelled like... beans, as in canned pork n' beans. cooled and pitched my saison yeast. 7 hours later there were early signs of fermentation (a thin krausen). once the sacch peaks i will throw in the brett mix.

 

[BGBC]

Beans, eh? Interesting. Any taste test?

And you mentioned it in the first post, but not here, but did you aerate prior to pitching sacch?

 

[sweetcell]

i couldn't detect much sourness (hidden by residual sugars?) but otherwise tasted OK. nothing horrible, thank goodness. it was weird to taste 90*F partially fermented beer. i meant to save some of my sample and cool it but didn't.

i did indeed aerate. i didn't mention it in my previous post because i thought it was a minor detail.

 

[jujitsudave]

update?

 

[sweetcell]

update?

not much to report yet. sacch fermentation went well (grown up from Spencer Trappist + Dupont Avec Les Bons Voeux + Ithica 17th Anniversary which also contained brett). 4 days later, after primary started to die down, i threw in another brett mix. racked to secondary after 16 days, and it's been sitting in the basement ever since. i tend to not sample my long-aged beers, but i'll post here if/when i do. thanks for asking

 

[BigPerm]

This method is pretty interesting. Blackman yeast has a kettle souring blend (Lacto + Pedio) that he claims gives a nearly 1.5 point pH drop in 24 hours. Like you, I never thought the pedio would have activity that quickly and without further data/controls, you can't really say whether the pedio has any effect at all.

Did you happen to take a pH before you pitched saccharomyces?

 

[sweetcell]

Did you happen to take a pH before you pitched saccharomyces?

unfortunately i didn't. my pH meter is on the fritz, i fear that i need to replace the probe. haven't gotten around to testing/trouble-shooting it.