Questions on fly/batch sparging

[cpferris]

Huy guys. Planning to do my first brew tomorrow. I decided to just start with all grain because I know that is where I will want to go in the future. I got my setup used from a brewer who was moving. I have done alot of reading and think I am as ready as I can be. For my first batch I am doing a 6g batch of the Zombie Dust clone that seems to be getting rave reviews.

Here's a brief review of my setup:

15g stainless mash tun (false bottom, therm, ball valve)
15g stainless HLT (ball valve)
8g stainless pot

I was thinking to use the 15g HLT for both strike/sparge water, then again as my brew pot. I figured I would heat the strike/sparge water in the 15g HLT, then mash in the stike water with the grains in the mash tun. Once the mash is comeplete, I would vorlauf then draing the first runnings into an ale pail that is incrementally marked. Then I would use the remaining strike water in the HLT to sparge. I would catch the wort coming from the sparge in another ale pail until sparging is complete. Then I would dump both ale
pails back into the 15g HLT for the boil.

That takes me to my sparging questions.


For fly sparging:
1. I do have access to a sparge arm which I could hook up to the out valve from the HLT. If you use this wouldn't you still have to
"spin" the sparge arm to prevent channeling the grain bed?
2. If you don't do the sparge arm, it seems the most common approach is to pour pitchers of water over a collander. Is that right? My brew put is really wide, so I don't have any way to rest a collander across the top. Any other suggestions?

My understanding of batch sparging is that you are essentiall re-mashing with the wet grain and sparge water, stir, rest, vorlauf then drain. Some questions:
1. WHen you batch sparge, does the sparge water rest on the grains for another 60 min (assuming that was your mash time) before vorlauf and drain? If not, what is the expected rest time?
2. Do you typically only batch sparge once with all sparge water, or do you split the sparge water in half and do two batch sparges?

Originally, I was leaning towards fly sparging as it seems more widely practiced, but I am concerned by keeping the flow rates constant, specifically because the valve diameter on my HLT is smaller than the valve diameter on my mash tun. On the flip side, batch sparging seems pretty fool proof because it's basically the same steps you used to mash with. And from what I have read in other threads here, it seems as though the perceived loss of efficiency with batch sparging seems debatable.

Any insight or suggestions? I realize this is my first brew and I will have lots of opportunities to try alternate approaches, but I do want to reduce my risk of error in my pilot batch.

Cheers,
Chad

 

[Chuckd76]

Welcome to the obsession!
First off some full disclosure: I don't use a sparge arm. That being said, even with the goal being to prevent channeling, there are sparge arm setups out there that don't spin. Blichmann's auto sparge adds water around the outer edge of the pot but I haven't heard of anyone complaining about channelling.

http://morebeer.com/products/blichmann-autosparge.html?gclid=CPDhlbvcrbsCFeg-MgodrEcA1g

The aim is to slowly add water so there is no chance of channelling.
If you can picture it using MoreBeer's description this is a great example of how you would add water:

http://morebeer.com/products/ultimate-sparge-arm.html?gclid=CJjK8JjarbsCFY47MgodczUAzA

While fly sparging you want to keep the top of the mash under a shallow layer of water so when you're adding water, you add to the pool to keep the level steady. If the grains get exposed you increase the risk of channelling.
To disperse the water evenly some folks use the collander, some use a sheet of aluminum foil with holes poked in it. I just use a measuring cup and pour water as I move my arm in a circular motion and try to add the water over all areas of the grains so I don't make a hole in the grains.
I don't batch sparge so I can't help you too much but it supposedly should be a rinsing of the grains. Drain the mash tun as fast as possible while avoiding a stuck sparge, add more strike water and stir, allow the grainbed to settle (not 60 minutes) and then re-drain.
I'm not an expert so don't only go by my answer because I'm sure there are wrong parts. I use what works for me. Hope at least some of this helps.

 

[twistr25]

Sounds like a pretty good setup. I've only batch sparged and in general it is just to wash the grains of the remaining sugars. So it really doesn't need a long rest time. Depending on my MT, I add water to it, let it flow through the grain, then drain. I have to do this a couple of times for space constraints, but there are no real "rest" periods. One point of the sparge water is to stop the grains from converting. That's why its heated to ~170F and not back to the original mash temp.

Both ways work, just comes down to preference.

 

[cpferris]

One point of the sparge water is to stop the grains from converting. That's why its heated to ~170F and not back to the original mash temp.

Quick follow up and slightly off topic. So the recipe says I should mash at 152. When I enter the grain bill into one of the many calculators along with grain temp, etc. Most calculators are saying my strike water needs to be aprproximately 164-165F. However, when I watch you tube videos and such, I hear people saying they want to target the low 150s for mash temp and they heat their strike water to roughly 170-175F. I am insulating my stainless mash tun, but I am weary of what to go with for strike temp. Any suggestions?

As for sparge temp, pretty much every where I look says to heat the water to 170ish, then with temp loss you will sparge at 165ish. I know the grain be will already be warm when I sparge, but I still expected more heat loss than ~5 degrees. I know there is concern about sparge water being OVER 170, but I struggle with how to assess the correct temps, even with the calculators.

Any suggestions?

 

[Yooper]

Quick follow up and slightly off topic. So the recipe says I should mash at 152. When I enter the grain bill into one of the many calculators along with grain temp, etc. Most calculators are saying my strike water needs to be aprproximately 164-165F. However, when I watch you tube videos and such, I hear people saying they want to target the low 150s for mash temp and they heat their strike water to roughly 170-175F. I am insulating my stainless mash tun, but I am weary of what to go with for strike temp. Any suggestions?

As for sparge temp, pretty much every where I look says to heat the water to 170ish, then with temp loss you will sparge at 165ish. I know the grain be will already be warm when I sparge, but I still expected more heat loss than ~5 degrees. I know there is concern about sparge water being OVER 170, but I struggle with how to assess the correct temps, even with the calculators.

Any suggestions?

If you preheat your MLT, you can probably plan on about a 11 degree drop so mashing in with 165 degree water will probably work well for you. What I like to do is add 180 degree water to my stainless MLT, and let the temperature drop to 165 before mashing it. That really helps warm up the MLT and then I don't lose more heat.

For sparge temperatures, you may want to get the grainbed to 168 which would require much hotter temperatures than 168 for the sparge water.

Batch sparging is quick and easy, and might work out better for you if you don't have an easy way to distribute the water evenly over the mash. If you decide to fly sparge, some tubing or something that lays over the grainbed would work. You want to avoid channelling, so make sure to keep at least an inch of liquid over the grainbed and make sure that it doesn't run fast. It should take 45-60 minutes to fly sparge a batch.

If you batch sparge, make sure you stir in your water additions like you mean it. Stir up the grain and sparge water like it owes you money, then vorlauf (recirculate) the first couple of quarts and then drain the liquid out.

 

[cpferris]

For sparge temperatures, you may want to get the grainbed to 168 which would require much hotter temperatures than 168 for the sparge water.

Batch sparging is quick and easy, and might work out better for you if you don't have an easy way to distribute the water evenly over the mash. If you decide to fly sparge, some tubing or something that lays over the grainbed would work. You want to avoid channelling, so make sure to keep at least an inch of liquid over the grainbed and make sure that it doesn't run fast. It should take 45-60 minutes to fly sparge a batch.

If you batch sparge, make sure you stir in your water additions like you mean it. Stir up the grain and sparge water like it owes you money, then vorlauf (recirculate) the first couple of quarts and then drain the liquid out.

Thanks for the info, at this point I am probably leaning towards batch sparging. Aside the the primary mash, how many times do you sparge? When you mention "make sure you stir in your water additions line you mean it..." you are referring to the fact that i am adding little bits of sparge water at a time (while stirring the grains) until I have added all of the sparge water, then vorlauf (recirculate) until clear, then completely draining the MLT again. Is that correct?

Sorry about the questions, just want to make sure I clearly understand you point.

 

[twistr25]

Thanks for the info, at this point I am probably leaning towards batch sparging. Aside the the primary mash, how many times do you sparge? When you mention "make sure you stir in your water additions line you mean it..." you are referring to the fact that i am adding little bits of sparge water at a time (while stirring the grains) until I have added all of the sparge water, then vorlauf (recirculate) until clear, then completely draining the MLT again. Is that correct?

Sorry about the questions, just want to make sure I clearly understand you point.

Short answer, you sparge until you get your pre-boil volume. It takes me a few times because my mashtun is smaller and all of my sparge water will not fit at the same time.

 

[VonAle]

Thanks for the info, at this point I am probably leaning towards batch sparging. Aside the the primary mash, how many times do you sparge? When you mention "make sure you stir in your water additions line you mean it..." you are referring to the fact that i am adding little bits of sparge water at a time (while stirring the grains) until I have added all of the sparge water, then vorlauf (recirculate) until clear, then completely draining the MLT again. Is that correct?

Sorry about the questions, just want to make sure I clearly understand you point.

You're Pre-boil volume should be around 8.5 to 9 gals for a 6 gal batch.
Subtract you're mash runnings and that is approximately how much you will sparge with.

Say 3 gals of mash runnings, from 8.5 pre boil gives you 5.5 gals to sparge.

Heat the 5.5 gal to 180-185 ish and after draining the mash, dump the whole amount of sparge water into you're pot and stir well, for like 2-3 minutes.
Then close the lid and rest for about 5 min. then drain.

Some split the sparge in 2, I've tried that and all it gets me is a longer brew day.

Keep VERY detailed notes concerning you're volumes, temps, times etc. and eventually you can predict your future brews more acurately,

 

[billl]

"you are referring to the fact that i am adding little bits of sparge water at a time (while stirring the grains) until I have added all of the sparge water, then vorlauf (recirculate) until clear, then completely draining the MLT again. Is that correct?"

If you are batch sparging:

1) Drain the mash tun
2) Add sparge water - you can just dump it all in.
3) Stir, stir, stir. Stir hard for several minutes. You need to get all that sugar dissolved in the new water.
4) Drain again.

If you can fit all your sparge water in once batch, that works fine. You can theoretically get slightly higher efficiency splitting it into a couple additions, but that adds time and extra work for a pretty minor benefit.

As for calculating sparge amounts, the programs will get you pretty close. If you want to do it on your own, back in from your known volumes. eg you want 5.5 gallons at the end and think you will boil off 1.5 gallons during the boil. That means you need 7 gallons total. Measure the amount you get from your first runnings and make up the rest of the 7 gallons with the sparge. Note : the grain absorbs water, so you can't just say you had 4 gallons in the mash so you need 3 more. You'll come up way short that way. If you want a ballpark number, grain will absorb about 1/8 gallon per lb, so a 12lb grain bill would absorb about 1.5 gallons. So, if you mash with 4, you'll need about 4.5 more to get 7 total. Personally, I just always heat up an extra gallon or so of sparge water so I have plenty in case I calculated wrong.

 

[Conan]

Welcome! I only batch sparge and like VonAle have found multiple sparges only takes more time. As was said, keep notes. I make up an excel spreadsheet for every batch I brew, and have built in a few calculators to help my along. Basically it's distilled BeerSmith info like strike water needed based on grain weight and how much to sparge based on what I expect to recover from my mash.
Once you develop a procedure it's best to trust the numbers. Every time I compensate for something by adding a little more water it comes back to bite me with lower efficiency.
My sparge(s) strike at 180F and, after stirring, rest for 20 minutes. The time is a fairly arbitrary number but it works for me and allows me time to either come in from the cold or organize for the upcoming boil. Kyle

 

[VonAle]

Welcome! I only batch sparge and like VonAle have found multiple sparges only takes more time. As was said, keep notes. I make up an excel spreadsheet for every batch I brew, and have built in a few calculators to help my along. Basically it's distilled BeerSmith info like strike water needed based on grain weight and how much to sparge based on what I expect to recover from my mash.
Once you develop a procedure it's best to trust the numbers. Every time I compensate for something by adding a little more water it comes back to bite me with lower efficiency.
My sparge(s) strike at 180F and, after stirring, rest for 20 minutes. The time is a fairly arbitrary number but it works for me and allows me time to either come in from the cold or organize for the upcoming boil. Kyle

I also made up a spreadsheet that started as a Brew Day Log/check list. I've since added volume, temperature and time calculators to where it has evolved to the point where I can nail my predictions within fractions.

 

[cpferris]

Thanks for all the detailed responses. I think I am going to go with the batch sparge approach. Plus, considering the size of my MLT, I can easily add all of my sparge water at once.

I am not expecting perfection with my first batch, but just want to try and minimize points of error while I learn the ropes. Once I learn my equipment a little better, I can tackle taking on more extravagent approaches if it suits me.

I printed out the all grain brew day checklist from Brewers Friend and am using that as a guide to make sure I don't forget anything. That said, I would love to see one of the spreadsheets you guys have come up with from experience. If anyone is willing to share one, please shoot me a PM and I can send you my email addy. If not, no big deal, I'll figure it out as I go!

Thanks guys.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for all the detailed responses. I think I am going to go with the batch sparge approach. Plus, considering the size of my MLT, I can easily add all of my sparge water at once.

I am not expecting perfection with my first batch, but just want to try and minimize points of error while I learn the ropes. Once I learn my equipment a little better, I can tackle taking on more extravagent approaches if it suits me.

I printed out the all grain brew day checklist from Brewers Friend and am using that as a guide to make sure I don't forget anything. That said, I would love to see one of the spreadsheets you guys have come up with from experience. If anyone is willing to share one, please shoot me a PM and I can send you my email addy. If not, no big deal, I'll figure it out as I go!

Thanks guys.

It's not a spreadsheet, but I love this how-to on easy batch sparging by the wonderful Denny Conn: http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

 

[Conan]

Here's a couple links to my sheets.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Y0owHDvPbQaEhFMld6dW5hX1k/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Y0owHDvPbQdk50bzNpWnZzXzA/edit?usp=sharing
The Blackberry Wheat is a beer I make every few months for my wife in a 3.1 gallon batch. You can see the evolution of my spreadsheets fairly well. I now just copy this whole sheet for every new beer and fill in the blanks as needed. Hop to the Heart I've also made several times and can track my consistency on 5.25 gallon batches with it.
The block of data on the right of each sheet is just for graphing and is formula-based info from the stuff on the left.
I start by filling in my grain weight at the top, which gives water needed for my mash. It also tells me how much will be absorbed, to which I add .25 gal. as loss to the tun. I'm working on a calculator for sparge volume but haven't finished it yet.
The "Circ. Depth" block of data is my way of determining collected volume. It's set to the diameter of my boil kettle (14.5, which is diameter and not circumference). I use a measuring tape in the wort to find my volumes. Any questions, feel free to PM me or ask here, and anyone can feel free to use/ edit/ ignore as you wish. Kyle

 

[glugglug]

every time i compensate for something by adding a little more water it comes back to bite me with lower efficiency.kyle

true dat!!