Question on cider with Nottingham
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Not if you calculate it all up ahead of time. If you know your total fermentable load, theoretically it doesn't matter when it's added.
9/5: OG=1.065
9/15: SG=1.012
Very appley and slightly dry at 6.5%ABV. Headed for 1.000.
Thunder_Chicken
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I would try to degas it and be patient. The last 10 points take quite a while to come off. See the gravity vs. time plot earlier in this thread. Put it away someplace warm and check in on it in mid-October.
Does degas mean stir? And should I stir up the yeast cake too?
Thunder_Chicken
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High amounts of CO2 in solution drive down the pH and stress the yeasts, so rousing it a little bit to shake out some gas out won't hurt. I don't think you should open it and stir it with a wine whip. If you just keep it someplace warm the cider won't hold on to so much gas.
Bottom line, cider ferments aren't like a beer ferment, it will take a while but will be fine. 1.010 at this stage of the game is pretty good.
Well... I've done a few batches of cider with straight juice (1.045) and Wyeast cider yeast, and they went to 0.997 in about 2 weeks. This batch is juice + FAJC = 1.065 + Notty. It's been around 74F in the closet the whole time. The 1/4 inch bubbles stopped several days ago, now I have a steady but slow stream of 1mm bubbles, so it's still going, but barely, and slower than my other ciders. Could be the alcohol, could be the Notty I guess. Not sure I can warm it up any more though. So a stir in the carboy might not be advisable?
Thunder_Chicken
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If you want fast, a cider yeast or a wine yeast like Lalvin EC-1118 would be a better choice, but you'd get a different product at the end.
Nottingham is an ale yeast - it does work nicely in cider, and makes esters that complement ciders well, but it ain't fast. Ciders and wines are very acidic and nutrient poor compared to most beer worts - Nottingham is tough but it is not in its happy place in cider. If you can shake out the gas occaisionally to keep the pH up, keep it warm, those things will help. It will get there and be a nice cider, but you'll have to wait for it.
Give it a little shake now and again to keep things moving, but I wouldn't open it and stir as that might cause oxidation.
Nottingham is an ale yeast - it does work nicely in cider, and makes esters that complement ciders well, but it ain't fast. Ciders and wines are very acidic and nutrient poor compared to most beer worts - Nottingham is tough but it is not in its happy place in cider. If you can shake out the gas occaisionally to keep the pH up, keep it warm, those things will help. It will get there and be a nice cider, but you'll have to wait for it.
Give it a little shake now and again to keep things moving, but I wouldn't open it and stir as that might cause oxidation.
Got it. Thanks for the info TC!
Albionwood
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All this discussion is making me want to try Notty again, it's been several years and maybe I need to give it another go. I need to pick my Kingston Blacks and press them out soon...
Had I known that Notty went so slow, I probably woulda stuck with Wyeast-Cider. Coulda been drinking by now.
YAY! It finally stopped bubbling and the foam went away! Tomorrow I'll take an FG, prime and bottle!
YAY! It finally stopped bubbling and the foam went away! Tomorrow I'll take an FG, prime and bottle!
1.004. Think I'll let it go a few more days while I decide whether to backsweeten with non-fermentable. 1.002 = 8.0% abv right on the nose.
Thunder_Chicken
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Let it ferment out completely. It will go to 1.000 or lower. Patience!
1.065-1.001=8.1%, primed, bottled and soon too be drunk. No backsweetening, and screw that aging crap! Maybe on some future batch.
Hey Keith. Judging from your last string of posts here, I would be on the lookout for bottle bombs. Your gravity was still dropping when you bottled, indicating that your yeast was still chomping away at those sugars (you went from 1.004 to 1.001 in the span of one day).
I'd wait for the gravity to read constant for at least three days before bottling. The only time I wouldn't is if I planned to pasteurize to stop the fermentation or if I was going to keep the cider cold for the duration of its shelf life.
Hopefully I'm completely wrong about this and everything will be fine. But if you get a gusher in one bottle you'll know you're on the way to bottle bombs in the others.
Thunder_Chicken
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Yeah, you are definitely in danger of bottle bombs. You said yourself that one of your earlier ciders went down to 0.997, and yet you bottled this one at 1.001? That's possibly 4 points of gravity that has yet to be fermented, which is also about the amount of gravity you add during normal priming.
Lack of bubbles in the airlock or the cider itself means nothing. You can (and likely did) have a very slow active ferment. The only way to be sure that it is done is to take the gravity three times on alternating days. If you get the same gravity all three times, you are safe to bottle.
I would open one of those bottles every few days to check the carbonation. If (when) you start getting good carbonation, either refrigerate the entire batch, open them all and let them ferment out again and then rebottle, try pasteurizing them, or put them in an explosion-proof bunker and wear face and body protection when you go near them.
Lack of bubbles in the airlock or the cider itself means nothing. You can (and likely did) have a very slow active ferment. The only way to be sure that it is done is to take the gravity three times on alternating days. If you get the same gravity all three times, you are safe to bottle.
I would open one of those bottles every few days to check the carbonation. If (when) you start getting good carbonation, either refrigerate the entire batch, open them all and let them ferment out again and then rebottle, try pasteurizing them, or put them in an explosion-proof bunker and wear face and body protection when you go near them.
TW and TC, you guys both make good points. It was actually 2-3 points in 4 days though. I posted 1.004 on 10/6 like it says, but it was 1.001 (to 1.002) when I bottled on 10/10. Don't remember when I wrote that post, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't yesterday like it says. Not sure about the post dates shown. It was also 1.002 on 10/9, the day before I bottled, so little to no change from the 9th to the 10th. I guess 2-3 points in 4 days is still significant when you stand back and look at it though. Also, the 0.997 was with Wyeast cider yeast, not Notty. And the Wyeast got it down there fast, like in a couple weeks! But I guess Notty could take it down that low too. Still, I'll open one tonight and see how it looks. I primed for 2.5 volumes, and lambics and hefes go up to 4.5 (per Brewer's Friend), so hopefully that buys me a little leeway, not sure. I hate pasteurizing (I've been lucky with the few bombs I've had in the past), and I don't have enough room for 60 bottles in my fridge, so if I get a gusher I'll have to start opening bottles. Thanks for the heads up guys, I'll keep you posted.
So I opened a bottle tonight, 4 days after priming/bottling, and......... (drum roll please).......... very slight pfft and almost no carbonation...... but I expect there will be in a week or so as planned. I also expect to open a bottle or two between now and then just to keep tabs on it. The unexpected part for me was how dry it was, like wine. I mean, I know I fermented out most/all the sugar, but I recall the last batch being sweeter at 0.997. Although I've read that Wyeast cider yeast can do that. I've also read that it will age well, even though I may not be patient enough for that. The good news though: no gushers! Thank you guys for the heads up though! I'll definitely still keep an eye on it.
That's great news! Also, I think I got mixed up on the posting dates. I see now that you dropped those gravity points over a few days. I wouldn't be as concerned now, and you're definitely doing the right thing by opening one every so often to keep an eye on things.
Now enjoy the (fermented) fruits of your labor!
Now enjoy the (fermented) fruits of your labor!
Speaking of impatient... I bailed out of work at noon, came home, stacked a cord of firewood, took a naproxyn and a Norco (bad back), and sat down with a not-yet-carbonated cider. Then I had another cider. Then a bag of potato chips, then another cider, and another. At 8.1% abv (1.063-1.001), I should be somewhere between very buzzed and ****-faced. Presently I'm slightly buzzed, and not real satisfied with my level of insobriety. Oh sure, I'll keep drinking, but I'm going through my not-yet-ready-to-drink cider at a disconcerting rate. Hmmm......
So I'm 12 days in the bottle and almost no carbonation. Not only is it drier than I'd hoped, but it's darn near flat. AND I have to drink 3 bottles fast to feel any sort of buzz. At 8% I should be face-down on the floor after 4 bottles. Purely in the name of science and experimentation, I got a 6-pack of one of my favorite beers: Paulaner Salvator Dopplebock, also 8%. 1 bottle = definitely relaxed; 2 bottles = noticable buzz; 3 bottles = pretty much anything I say pisses off SWMBO; and I didn't go for 4. This is not so with my supposedly 8% cider. I'm confused, puckered, flat, and way too sober.
I think with my next batch, I'll go back to Wyeast 4766, and back-sweeten with lactose, and maybe use carb tabs. Not 100% sure though.
I think with my next batch, I'll go back to Wyeast 4766, and back-sweeten with lactose, and maybe use carb tabs. Not 100% sure though.
Thunder_Chicken
Well-Known Member
12 days is too early. Put it someplace warm (70F+) for minimum of 3 weeks. Then come back and tell us how it is.
The house has been 68-72 for several weeks, including the "fermentation closet". I'm about 12 bottles down already, and I opened one tonight with half decent carbonation. It's getting there. That damn Notty is slow, and I'm not patient. Thanks for all the advice!
Dumped it. 45 bottles. Got a very drunk cedar tree out back. Started it on 9/5, finally carbed (barely) a couple weeks ago, been letting it sit just a bit more... and I had slightly carbonated apple wine. Drier than I expected. Managed to choke down 11 bottles. No more. Made room for the next batch: Wyeast cider yeast, backsweeten with lactose, maybe a little cinnamon extract. Still, I do appreciate all the help, answers and advice I got from you guys! Cheers!
Check this thread out. Basically they say Nottingham is the highest rated yeast to use with simple cider. They also give tasting notes on several yeasts.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-yeast-comparison-article-444269/
Puddlethumper
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Have any of you guys used yeast nutrient when pitching Notty?
Also, when using Notty in beer I've found that it seems to like it on the cool side (60-65F). I'm just starting on cider and am curious if that same temp range works for ciders.
Also, when using Notty in beer I've found that it seems to like it on the cool side (60-65F). I'm just starting on cider and am curious if that same temp range works for ciders.
Puddlethumper
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Thanks. What about the temperature? Do you run Notty on the cool side for cider the same as when using it for ale?
ericbw
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rocketsan said:
Agree. I don't like dry champagne, but it works as a mixer (mimosas, etc.). A batch like this can be mixed with juice, schnapps, wine, or whatever, and end up making pretty unique cocktails. And 45 bottles will last forever.
Thunder_Chicken
Well-Known Member
Awww geez...no patience at all. The least you could have done was send it out to us for "disposal".
Absolutely...or with fresh cider...or ginger ale...
Puddlethumper
Well-Known Member
Copied from "Best cider yeasts and cold crashing" thread
As an update, I made my first cider using the Wyeast cider yeast called for in the recipe. Fermentation was vigorous and lengthy but gave off a rather foul rotting fruit odor. When I moved it to secondary a few days ago it tasted OK if rather flat and characterless. It attenuated to 1.002 from 1.059. It has cleared nicely since and will bottle in a few days.
Meanwhile I made another batch following exactly the same recipe but using Nottingham yeast. So far the difference has been in the smell. Vigorous fermentation with a wonderful smell of freshly crushed cider. A huge difference in that category.
I'll post my results as these are bottled and tasted.
As an update, I made my first cider using the Wyeast cider yeast called for in the recipe. Fermentation was vigorous and lengthy but gave off a rather foul rotting fruit odor. When I moved it to secondary a few days ago it tasted OK if rather flat and characterless. It attenuated to 1.002 from 1.059. It has cleared nicely since and will bottle in a few days.
Meanwhile I made another batch following exactly the same recipe but using Nottingham yeast. So far the difference has been in the smell. Vigorous fermentation with a wonderful smell of freshly crushed cider. A huge difference in that category.
I'll post my results as these are bottled and tasted.
