Question about taste

[cryhav0c]

I hope someone can head me in the right direction on this.

I've brewed 6 all-grain batches in the past 2 months since I began all-grain brewing. I've made a couple of mistakes along the way but nothing I thought was serious. To date I've brewed:

American Brown Ale - Ipad recipe
Sam Adams Clone - by Austin Home Brew kit
Sam Adams Clone - by Brewmasters
Dry Irish Stout - Northern Brewer
Smooth Ale - Don't remember where recipe came from
Centennial Blonde Ale - By Biermuncher


Virtually every one of these beers have a little "bite" to them. The last three have come out tasting really great but I can't figure out what the "bite" is from.

I really try to hit the mark on all my temps and such and I generally have nailed all the gravities etc. On the first few batches I overlooked vorlaufing and on the first batch I missed the mark on sparging on the high side. The final batch, (Centennial Blonde) I had very high hopes as everything went by the numbers and was quite surprised when the "bite" was still there.

I'm probably being impatient on the last three as they're still "young" beers and may mellow. Could this be tannins I'm tasting? Not real sure what they would do to my finished product due to my newness at this.

BTW, I have a 15gal all electric HERMS keggle setup. Temp easily controlled & monitored.

I have read Palmer's "How to Brew" and keep it under my pillow...LOL

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[PantherCity]

I assume you have fermentation temps under control, if not i would think it is a fermentation issue. Hows is your water? Are you treating it. Is it a "hop bitterness bite" from too much sulfates? Did you only notice it after going all grain? If it is a grain related astringency maybe you should acidify your sparge water? I don't know. Try to describe the "bite" more descriptively.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

A few options:

1) Is it possible you're detecting astringency as this "bite"? If so, the HERMS setup or your sparge water could be too hot, or you could be oversparging, extracting tannins (this could also occur by not vorlaufing and getting those grain husks in the boil kettle).

2) What's changed in your water since you started? Did you brew extract using bottled water and then switch to tap water? Presence of chlorine/chloramine can lead to chlorophenols which I understand to be a "bite" taste.

http://***********/stories/wizard/a...ing-chloramine-a-historical-hopping-mr-wizard

If you suspect this, a campden tablet to treat your mash/sparge water prior to dough-in could help.

 

[cryhav0c]

Thanks for the replies.

I've been using tap water via a carbon filter. I have a RODI setup at my disposal as I have a salt water aquarium but was hesitant to use it. I have requested a water breakdown but haven't received it yet. I live in Louisiana so there's no telling.

My fermentation temps are spot on the money as I have a climate controlled room & a 2 keg freezer with a Ranco ETC running it & I keep pretty good notes to monitor all.

I've never brewed anything but all grain so I really don't have a comparison, sorry. The best I can describe it is this:

I purchased about 20 different types of craft beers. Practically everything Sam Adams has to offer along with numerous others from breweries far and wide and none of them have the taste I'm referring to. It's completely missing. I've taught myself to identify hop flavors and various brewing techniques to a degree so I'm pretty sure it's none of those.

In my opinion, you guys probably nailed it, it's either a tannin issue or a water issue. Which I was really hoping because that's something I can do something about.

I'm drinking my Centennial Blonde right now and it's great. Just gotta get that additional little bite out and it would be perfect. Could it be that the beer's still a little "young?"

Can't wait to get that water report. Has anyone ever brewed with RODI water? What effect would that have?

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like water is the issue. Can you use 100% RO water for the next batch, and add just a bit of Calcium Chloride (see the "water chemistry primer for the exact amount)? That might totally fix the problem, and then you know what the issue is. Water is huge, and I think the "bite" sounds like a water chemistry issue.

 

[cryhav0c]

That's on my radar to do next. Because the Centennial Blonde is so easy and a wonderful beer I'm gonna do it again and work on the water chemistry. Will post a followup when it's ready. I just wanted to insure I was headed in the right direction and not floundering around due to my newbness.

Thanks!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm drinking my Centennial Blonde right now and it's great. Just gotta get that additional little bite out and it would be perfect. Could it be that the beer's still a little "young?"

Hadn't realized you were new to brewing. I do assume that you're either pitching a proper cell count of dry yeast, or making starters for liquid?

Young would be acetaldehyde: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Green_apples Any chance this is the "bite" you're talking about?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

My fermentation temps are spot on the money as I have a climate controlled room & a 2 keg freezer with a Ranco ETC running it & I keep pretty good notes to monitor all.

One more question. What temp do you pitch at? General recommendation is to pitch a few degrees cooler than your ferment temp and let it ramp up. Pitching hot and letting it cool down definitely causes a "bite", or at least it did for me early in my brewing career before I figured that out.

 

[cryhav0c]

All of the brews I've listed were brewed with liquid yeast either White Labs or Wyeast and I made starters for all of them using a flask and stir plate with what I think was excellent results. The Centennial Blonde was my first attempt at using dry yeast and it was the Nottingham.

I have a dual chiller setup that I designed due to my boil kettle being electric. I use dual igloo's and dual immersion chillers packed in ice water and can bring the temp down to 60F in about 14-18 minutes on a 5-6 gallon batch. I oxygenate my wort well with a oxygen tank and stone. I watch my temp until I'm a couple of degrees below fermentation range and then I pitch.

I'm really glad you brought up the aroma issue as I neglected to mention that all my beers pass the sniff test and yield a great aroma, (expecially that Dry Irish Stout...wow) At least nothing common that I can detect. None of my friends are adept at spotting something like that and I'm not much better but I do know what I'm trying to discern.

I will say this. I didn't get the pitching temp issue figured out until the last two batches and I've learned. Don't drink and brew...You'll forget something..LOL Gotta learn to "sip" and brew...<G>

 

[paraordnance]

I suggest its your water. What's your alkalinity? My city water 187 and I had exactly same problem until I started diluting it with 80% RO.

 

[cryhav0c]

I'm trying to find out what the alk is. I like the suggestion to dilute... Will post update as I plan to brew with RODI to see what difference it makes...

 

[cryhav0c]

I like the dilution idea. Going to see what's up with the water report I requested today.

 

[paraordnance]

I like the dilution idea. Going to see what's up with the water report I requested today.

post it here so we can take a look. I didn't realized how important water was until I found it by experimenting.

 

[erikhild59]

I've noticed a dramatic difference in my beers since I learned to control my water chem/ph . I use a mixture of gypsum and calcium chloride in the mash and acidify my sparge water with lactic acid. No more "bite".

 

[cryhav0c]

Keep in mind that I live in central Louisiana. I just called about a water quality report and the lady asked why I needed one, that nobody has ever asked about anything like that before. I told her that I needed it so I can see that my aquarium water is adjusted properly and was then told how her mommy had thrown a bream she'd caught into her 20 gallon guppy tank when she was a kid and she didn't figure out where all her guppies was goin until she seen the bream poop a fin. But she'll get Charlie to check on the report cause he knows about things like that and he'll call me back.

I'm not optimistic.

 

[Yooper]

Keep in mind that I live in central Louisiana. I just called about a water quality report and the lady asked why I needed one, that nobody has ever asked about anything like that before. I told her that I needed it so I can see that my aquarium water is adjusted properly and was then told how her mommy had thrown a bream she'd caught into her 20 gallon guppy tank when she was a kid and she didn't figure out where all her guppies was goin until she seen the bream poop a fin. But she'll get Charlie to check on the report cause he knows about things like that and he'll call me back.

I'm not optimistic.

It's about $16 to get a full and complete water report from Ward Labs. That's what I did when the water guy kept saying, "It's ok little lady. Our water is safe to drink!" when I asked about the chemical composition of our city water.

 

[Brewfat]

I think I had a similar issue. I seem to have fixed it by treating my water with campden and improving my vourlaf. YMMV

 

[Davey_Boi]

I asked the very same question a few months back! My beers had a tanginess that was hard to describe but "bite" seems to sound like the same thing - it was on the aftertaste and more noticeable in lighter coloured beers.

Since then I purchased a Hanna pH meter and on my next 2 brews I found that the unadjusted mash pH was 5.7 (room temp). I adjusted with Lactic acid to get the pH down to 5.3 and 5.4 on each of the brews. Happy to say that this was the fix I was looking for, as both of the beers had a much cleaner finish and the tanginess was gone.

My water here in Melbourne, Australia is pH 7.1, Alkalinity as CaCO3 is 10. I found that the malted grains just didnt have enough acidity to bring the pH down low enough - especially light grains. You could be experiencing a similar problem. If you are confident that the rest of your process is spot on, it may be worth getting a pH meter along with the Bru'n water spreadsheet.

 

[cryhav0c]

This is funny but I have several pH meter's but wasn't using them. I'm doing another brew today and utilizing some of the above suggestions. You bet your beverage glass that I'm using it today. I just loaded up the rig with 80% RODI & checked the pH @ 5.2. I'm going to flush and "boil out" all the lines prior to reloading and getting my strike water up to speed. Then I'm gonna prep a sample of my regular water to send off to a lab for testing Monday. I just checked and the pH on my "house water" is about 7.1. I'm pretty confident I'm on the right track now. Will post results. Thanks

 

[erikhild59]

Good luck man. Maybe you call your next beer Breams Fin ale...

 

[cryhav0c]

ROFLMAO! Excellent Idea!

 

[cryhav0c]

Well I thought I'd add this update. I brewed a Centennial Blonde, my second attempt, and everything went almost precisely as did my first attempt according to my notes. At this moment I am racking into secondary after 6 days in primary for cold crashing & fining followed by kegging. I just tasted the beer and there's absolutely no comparison. The "bite" is completely gone. I started with RODI @ 5.2pH, fermentation went very briskly with the Notty as I expected it would. OG = 1.035 and current gravity is 1.004. Gonna be a great beer!

I figured this would solve the problem so I went ahead and did an EdWorts haus Ale a couple days later that's still fermenting. Can't wait for it either. Thanks to everyone!

 

[eppo]

Thanks for the thread. A lot of my beers have had a"bite" sort of like a hop bitterness that shouldn't be there. This thread helped. Going to try to build my own water for my next batch.

 

[cryhav0c]

I feel kind of silly because I just sort of "skimmed" that chapter when I was reading Palmer's "How to Brew" book. Not any longer. I've read it twice now. Very valuable book. I have it on my iPhone, iPad & PC and have 2 hard copies. One I purchased and the other was a gift. That data is never far from reach. Yeah I know...sometimes I'm accused of being OCD but actually I prefer CDO. It's more alphabetically correct....

 

[cryhav0c]

Just wanted to post a quick followup. I finished cold crashing & carbing this brew. It's in my kegerator right now. I had several friends over that had tasted the previous "cousin" of this brew, (Centennial Blonde) and they all agree with me. There's no comparison. This is a GREAT quaffer now that I've got the water adjusted correctly. I've since brewed an EdWort's Haus Ale and am prepping for a 10 gallon brew of this blonde. Thanks to everyone for helping me save football season! Cheers!

 

[eppo]

I'm glad out worked out. Did you just use straight ro water? Did you add anything?

 

[cryhav0c]

I wound up using straight RODI water. You wouldn't believe how smooth this brew is. I'm going to try it with other brews but now that I have a baseline I'll study up on types of water for different brews and play with adjusting from there to what is required for the various types. Gonna be a fun project...

 

[Yooper]

That's great news! And thanks for reporting back on the results.

Sometimes I wonder if the "homebrew flavor" we hear about isn't the dreaded extract twang at all, but instead the result of something as simple (and complex!) as the water.

I'm so glad you've figured out your issue. Now you have to have a new thing to obsess about, if you're a real brewer!