Question about Mash times, boil, alpha and beta amylase?

[Bubbles2]

Thanks for looking in.... I have been reading and cannot seem to find the answer in regards to the enzyme break down.

Quote from BeerSmith's page:

A low step temperature (146-150F/63-66 C) emphasizing beta amylase will therefore result in a more complete conversion to simple sugars, but will take longer to complete. These simple sugars will ferment more readily, producing a highly attenuated beer that has higher alcohol content but less body and mouth-feel.

Conversely, a high temperature conversion step (154F-156F/68-69 C) emphasizing alpha amylase gives you more unfermentable sugars, resulting in lower alcohol content and a full bodied beer with a lot of mouth-feel. Moderate conversion temperatures (150-153F/65-67C) result in a medium body beer. In BeerSmith the mash profiles are labeled light, medium and full bodied to make this selection easy.

So when a recipe calls for a 60 minute boil of the Wort....which is over 220º what happens to that chain of amylase?

 

[corax]

The amylase enzymes are destroyed at temperatures over ~170° F. But they are no longer needed after the starch conversion in the mash.

 

[Bubbles2]

Thank you corax.

 

[Lefou]

If you like dryness in beers but want to avoid limp, thin examples you can adjust your beer somewhat by altering the recipe. Using pale ale malt as a base that's less diastatically active can help, as will rye or other grains rich with beta glucan content. Unmalted grains contribute as well, but if you're a stickler for doing strict beer styles you may want to forego certain ingredients.

 

[brewbama]

You could do a step mash and get fermentability as well as body by targeting temps that the enzymes are most active vs. a single temp compromise.

“The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added.

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-162F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest.

Finally the mash may be raised to mash out temp and subsequently lautered.”

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing

 

[Bubbles2]

If you like dryness in beers but want to avoid limp, thin examples you can adjust your beer somewhat by altering the recipe. Using pale ale malt as a base that's less diastatically active can help, as will rye or other grains rich with beta glucan content. Unmalted grains contribute as well, but if you're a stickler for doing strict beer styles you may want to forego certain ingredients.

Funny you mention Rye, just ordered some malted rye. I also have been using reg red wheat berries ground for a wheat grain, although NOT malted it certainly has good head and body albeit not malted, whereas I think this is why my OG is a bit lower then when using a malted wheat.
Within that recipe I use 'quick oats' due to the process and "opening the enzymes" compared to steel cut. Bare with my terms, I am new to the lingo. I bag the oats separate from the grain, and wanted to try letting it rest at 150º, as it is now I pull it at 150º and continue to 168.5º before pulling grain. Which prompted by question in regards to the amylase (which was answered). Appreciate the input, insight.

 

[Lefou]

I love using around 10% or more malted wheat in my beers. There's no harm in grinding it down to powder and in doing so, it will contribute enzymes to the mash sooner and help speed conversion. I've found finer grinds can increase your efficiency and give a few extra gravity points. Mixing a comparable amount of wheat to your oats in a separate cereal mash will benefit, too.

 

[Bubbles2]

I have a recipe where I use for an IPA at .75 oats .75 wheat. DME, etc., albeit I was doing it without the wheat being malted (sprouted for enzymes, to allow a better sugar chain) The head on this is outstanding. I'd show you a pic if I could. I gently pour from bottle to not pour sediment, (so easy pour) The head is thick, frothy and is a good 1", when finishing the beer the head is still good and thick that it leaves a nice coat on the inside of the pint glass. I like a little head with my beer.... The clarity is good if given 18-20 days to settle. I could clear it, but the color from the wheat does not warrant a clear Pilsner look.
I've dubbed it B.S.IPA, Bitter Sweet India Pale Ale
Bitter from the Hops added, Sweet for being a non taxed beer...

 

[Miraculix]

I recently started having a bit of doubts regarding the general idea that high temp mashes create less fermentable wort.

Reason is, I overshot my temperature heavily with three beers at the same time, all with Nottingham yeast, ending up being mashed at 72c. I should have ended up with a beer very sweet and under attenuated but got about 80% attenuation.

I later did some experiments with different mash steps and temperatures, all at the same time with the same recipe, yeast etc... They all ended up roughly with the same attenuation, although I have chosen a yeast which cannot utilize maltotriose.

So the information I got out of those experiences is that the biggest factor for attenuation is yeast choice and mash temp itself does not create a big difference.

 

[couchsending]

It depends a lot on the malt and yeast you use. High attenuating yeast generally have no trouble fermenting the complex sugars created by a rest at 72c. Also with the stupid high diastatic power of US 2-Row you have less control of fermentability.

 

[Bubbles2]

It depends a lot on the malt and yeast you use. High attenuating yeast generally have no trouble fermenting the complex sugars created by a rest at 72c. Also with the stupid high diastatic power of US 2-Row you have less control of fermentability.

I am a new brewer, and started with a couple kits, by my third batch I began to 'wing it'. Now onto my 11 batch, I've been working with a dozen packs of SAF 05 dry for my last 3 batches and next 9 to note taste and so forth. I found switching yeast, harvesting, and so forth created too many variables for FG, taste, body.
I am on my 3rd stout which is why I am responding, I have a hard time reaching a lower FG on this Choc Stout. Always seems to finish about 3.5% compared to 5.25% of an IPA. Same temps, routine, yeast. Deviation is the Lactose, albeit one batch I did not use and still had a low % attenuation. These start at 1067'ish and only come down to about 1018, compared to the IPA (Wheat non malted, quick oats) at 1064 down to 1010.
Stout malts are Breiss. 120º and chocolate malt dk (name eludes atm), oats, using the same DME and Yeast for the two types/recipes.
IPA is oats, wheat (non malted)
malted RYE is on the way to try that one.
I am indeed waiting long enough 2 weeks (at least primary) 6-10 days secondary where I add my adjuncts. I even boost the adjuncts with 2oz of DME boiled with 6oz h20 @ 15min for choc slurry, cool and pitch to get a lil' C02 boost and then wait for 0 activity. Still ending 10 points higher then that IPA.
Hence me wondering about a rest for the stout and the original question. I now say making beer is like baking a cake in a bottle.