Progression of off flavor

[OutsidersAl]

I'm finding that - as far as I can tell - every batch of beer I'm making will start to acquire an unpleasant sour/tart flavor after about 2 months at cellaring temperature. It starts out almost unnoticeable, but then by month 3 it's wrecked the beer.

What might I be looking at here?

If it's an infection I wonder how I am getting it in every single batch. I practice at least average, but probably better than average sanitation on all of my batches. Cleaning my kettles, cleaning my carboys, full sanitizing routine with either bleach or iodopher or sometimes both at different times.

This problem has started since I built a weldless keggle set up in my garage. But my sanitation practices have improved since my previous set up, not gotten worse.

Is it possibly oxidation? I'm super careful about that though too. But maybe hotside aeration? Like when I dump my 150* water from my tap into my HLT? Is that possible? Won't boiling work that out?

Could it possibly have something to do with the calmden tablets I add to my water? Or the 5.2 stabilizer? I don't add anything else to my beer other than that.

Could it be yeast nutrient?

I'm at a loss here.

I've got a slight astringency in my beers too, very slight, but I do notice it. I wonder if this is not related? I don't think it is, I think the astringency is from adding direct heat to my MT to bring it up to 170. I"m going to start adding near boiling water to do that and be more gentle on my mash.

But what the hell is going on here? I'm pulling what's left of my hair out over this. I've had this happen to low gravity lagers and high gravity (like 11.5%) stouts and everything in between.

What could be the problem???

Thanks for any insight.

 

[hercher]

A couple questions:

Can you describe your brewing and fermentation process?

Can you describe your equipment, especially your fermentation vessel? Once in a while, plastic buckets and hoses and other pieces might need to be replaced.

Would you describe this flavor as vinegary -- experienced on the sides of the tongue? If so, it could be acetic acid.

 

[OutsidersAl]

brewing:

fill 5 gallon corny with 150* water from tap and bring it to the garage and put into keggle. repeat until necessary amount of water is reached. add crushed camden tablet and bring to temperature.

dough in and rest for 60 minutes.

put direct fire on *very* low to raise 150+change mash to 170.

recirculate until clear.

meanwhile bring sparge water dosed with 5.2 in HLT up to 180 (to compensate for loss between tubes and pump).

sparge for 45-60 minutes.

boil.

add copper displacement coil and yeast nutrient at 20 minutes.

cool.

meanwhile sanitize glass carboy or keg with iodopher and sanitize hose that will rack out of BK into fermenter as well as stone and airlock and plug.

rack.

bring inside and aerate with stone and aquarium pump.

pitch starter with yeast amount derived from mr.malty.

wrap in temp controlled blanket inside a fridge with a 2-phase thermostat.

pray to false gods.

rack to sanitized keg and force carbonate.

drink too much.

 

[duboman]

Because the off flavors appear to be coming on late I would investigate your kegs and tapping system. I don't keg but have seen enough threads discussing the necessity of ensuring all seals, hoses, tubing, taps, etc are being taken apart and thoroughly cleaned and sanitized whenever new legs are being tapped, my guess is something in this part of your process/system is the culprit as your description of your actual brewing process appears sound.

 

[OutsidersAl]

That's a good point. Maybe what I'll do is bottle condition for a while and see if the issue persists.

So you think it sounds like an infection and not oxidation?

 

[duboman]

That's a good point. Maybe what I'll do is bottle condition for a while and see if the issue persists.

So you think it sounds like an infection and not oxidation?

Oxidation tastes like wet cardboard, sour and fouls is more of an infection issue.

 

[OutsidersAl]

what's strange is that it's happening in *every* keg. and i've got about a half dozen of them. does that seem probable that every keg could have the same infection?

 

[duboman]

what's strange is that it's happening in *every* keg. and i've got about a half dozen of them. does that seem probable that every keg could have the same infection?

Yes if you are not breaking them all down and properly cleaning and sanitizing all components. In addition the complete tapping system could also be harboring some little nasties making it a consistent problem.

 

[hercher]

It could be as simple as a problem with the racking cane. It seems a little unlikely that every keg would be infected, otherwise. However, to be safe, it might be worth carefully sanitizing or even replacing all seals and o-rings. Your procedures seem dead on, and you are using a glass carboy instead of a plastic bucket. I'll admit to being perplexed.

Do you know another homebrewer you can work with? Perhaps try your brewing equipment and his/her fermentation and kegging gear. If the off-flavor doesn't appear, then try his/her brewing equipment and kegging gear, but your fermentation equipment. Lastly, his/her brewing and fermentation gear, and your kegging gear. It's the only way I know of to definitively rule out an equipment issue.

 

[OutsidersAl]

That's a great idea and I'll very likely do that. But, boy, I wish there was an easier solution. Don't they make an app for this or something?

 

[OutsidersAl]

I'm pulling everything apart and cleaning. I'm wondering... the hose that I use to rack from the BK to the fermenter got burned last year on the end, melting the tip pretty substantially. Even though I wash and sanitize this between brews could this possibly be posing some kind of problem? Like did the burning of it break down some protective layer or allow some kind of bacteria into the plastic potentially?

dunno, just asking.

 

[OutsidersAl]

I'm pulling everything apart and cleaning. I'm wondering... the hose that I use to rack from the BK to the fermenter got burned last year on the end, melting the tip pretty substantially. Even though I wash and sanitize this between brews could this possibly be posing some kind of problem? Like did the burning of it break down some protective layer or allow some kind of bacteria into the plastic potentially?

dunno, just asking.

 

[ruralbrew]

I know someone who had pretty much the same problem. All his beers would sour over time. The last time he had this happen he just decided to dump the keg. He was surprised to find the beer in the keg was fine. Turned out the problem was with his beer lines and tap. Once he replaced the lines and cleaned his taps and disconnects, no more problem.

If it was me that is where I would start looking.

 

[OutsidersAl]

I'm cleaning everything now, including CO2 lines. But I don't think it's the tapping system because I can pull straight from the keg, just with a tap handle connected to a QD and still the same problem.

I do appreciate the feedback though and I am just cleaning *everything*. And I'm going to double check that I'm right about what I said in the last paragraph.

 

[OutsidersAl]

Well, at the risk of completely showing my hand at being rather dubious when it comes to hygiene, I share with you what I presume to be my problem.

I finally started taking apart my cornies for the first time *ever* this weekend. And these are used cornies that I bought, some as long as 3 years ago. I've never taken them apart to clean them.

I finally did and it was nasty. Sticking a wire cleaner down one of the 'out' tubes came back covered in brown crap and the poppetts, etc were not much better.

I suppose you have to learn that lesson some time, eh? I guess it wasn't hokum when I read over and over that you really need to take apart your kegs and clean them between uses.

Lesson learned.

 

[duboman]

Well, at the risk of completely showing my hand at being rather dubious when it comes to hygiene, I share with you what I presume to be my problem.

I finally started taking apart my cornies for the first time *ever* this weekend. And these are used cornies that I bought, some as long as 3 years ago. I've never taken them apart to clean them.

I finally did and it was nasty. Sticking a wire cleaner down one of the 'out' tubes came back covered in brown crap and the poppetts, etc were not much better.

I suppose you have to learn that lesson some time, eh? I guess it wasn't hokum when I read over and over that you really need to take apart your kegs and clean them between uses.

Lesson learned.

Glad to hear you took the time and found the problem! Time for a beer!

 

[OutsidersAl]

Many thanks for the guidance!!

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

Just think... You drank all that...Mmmm!!!