Problem hitting OG and FG in all grain brewing PLEASE HELP

[loosecannon81]

I am fairly new to all grain brewing. Like most I started with extract and hit my targets. Before I started all grain I read many books and still coming short of my OG and FG target. For example I brewed a American Wheat

3.75lb UK wheat
1.25lb 2 row
.5 honey
.25 sugar

Cascade leaf at 30 mins
Yeast WLP 380

Water profile norfolk VA.
Boil 90mins
Batch size 3.5
Boil size 5.5
Efficiency 70%
Mash ratio 1.5 qt to 1lb grain

I use Brewer's Friend and the OG 1.054 FG 1.015
I got OG of 1.028 and the beer is not done.

for this I used 7.5 qts strike water at 160 for a 154 rest at 1 hour. I sparged at 18 qts at 180 for a 10 min 172 rest. I took the gravity of the wort and it was 1.010 preboil (low). I worked out many equations for what the OG and FG and dont see where I went wrong. Was looking at gravity adjustments and did some equations and to reach my OG and FG I will need to add 2.5lbs of DME. That doesnt seem right, why would i have to add that and not getting it from the grains or close to?

Thanks in advance Leonard

 

[stpug]

-assuming wheat malt

Beersmith estimates
Preboil: 1.030
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.007

According to BS, in order to reach OG 1.054 you'd have to achieve 83% efficiency with your recipe and batch size, and that's overly optimistic for most peoples systems.

That aside, you definitely seem to be coming up short on original gravity (1.028 vs 1.047). This could be coming from your system, your grain crush, the recipe, or to lesser extents the water profile/pH/etc. I would start by looking at the crush of the grain to see if it looks like everything is being well milled. Wheat malt also has the potential to problematic and cause reduced efficiencies but not like you're seeing (35% efficiency). If you think the crush is good then please explain your brewing system/equipment.

 

[brewkinger]

Welcome to the world of AG!!

In short, unlike extract brewing where the sugars have been "extracted" for you, in AG your mash is the process of extracting the sugars out of the grains. (which I am sure that you knew)

Missing your OG in AG brewing essentially means that somewhere in your process, something is not working well for you.

Give us some more information about your process:

What do you use for a mash tun?
Do you stir after your sparge addition?
Is your thermometer accurate?

Give us a little more and we will be better able to help you figure this out.

 

[brewkinger]

-assuming wheat malt

According to BS, in order to reach OG 1.054 you'd have to achieve 83% efficiency with your recipe and batch size, and that's overly optimistic for most peoples systems.

That aside, you definitely seem to be coming up short on original gravity (1.028 vs 1.047). This could be coming from your system, your grain crush, the recipe, or to lesser extents the water profile/pH/etc. I would start by looking at the crush of the grain to see if it looks like everything is being well milled. Wheat malt also has the potential to problematic and cause reduced efficiencies but not like you're seeing (35% efficiency). If you think the crush is good then please explain your brewing system/equipment.

With regards to highlighted portion, it is indeed overly optimistic for a new AG brewer. I have been steadily dialing in my system for 6 months (1-2 brews per month) and I finally got 83.7% MASH efficiency for the first time last week.

 

[stratslinger]

OK, first off, I plugged the same recipe into Brewer's friend, same efficiency and volumes, and got OG 1.046 aand FG 1.011, so something's not quite adding up there...

First thing I'd ask is are you really boiling off 2 gallons in an hour? That seems pretty excessive - you're probably not boiling off that much, and it'll leave you FG lower than you expect, but not THAT much lower.

For that, there's a few things I'd look at:

1) Your grain crush: How were your grains crushed? Did your LHBS crush them for you? Maybe ask them to double-crush next time.

2) Your thermometer: If you haven't done so already, check the thermometer you're using for your mash temperature for accuracy. This is easy to do - fill up a glass with ice, then put some water in it, and let it sit for a minute or two. Place your thermometer in there, making sure that the thermometer is in contact with ice and water, and not the glass (preferably more ice than anything). After a minute or two, it should read 0C or 32F. If it does not, then you know how much you should correct your readings by - I had a thermometer until recently that read ice at 34F instead of 32F, so I knew if it read my mash at 154F, I was actually at 152F. Don't assume your thermometer is trustworthy!!!

3) Your sparging temperature. It sounds like you got a mash-out and a sparge kind of mixed up. For a normal sparge, you don't necessarily want to raise the temperature of the grain bed. That'll denature the enzymes that are at work, and stop all breakdown of sugars. In your case, you could have used some more help.

4) Possibly your sparging technique... You don't go into a ton of detail there, but when I batch sparge, what I find tends to increase my efficiency is to split my sparge into two equal volumes. And also, I make sure to stir the hell out of the mash tun each time I add sparge water. Yes, this means I have to vorlauf again before I can take my sparge runnings, but it also means that that sparge water is rinsing the entire grain bed.

 

[smyrnaquince]

"Water profile norfolk VA" doesn't mean much to me. This is a fairly light (color) beer. If your water has a high alkalinity, then the grains may not pull the pH low enough and your enzymes will not work very well.

If you have a water report from your town/city, try using Bru'n Water to see if you can estimate what your mash pH was. It could have been high.

 

[loosecannon81]

All,

Thanks for the input let me provide you all with more information to paint a better picture.

(Copy from brewers Friend)

Method: All Grain
Style: American Wheat or Rye Beer
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)
1.054 OG
1.015 FG
5.14% ABV
24.02 IBU
3.58 SRM
Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
3.75 lb United Kingdom - Wheat 37 2 65.2%
1.25 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 21.7%
0.5 lb Honey 42 2 8.7%
0.25 lb Cane Sugar 46 0 4.3%
5.75 lb Total
Hops
Amount Variety Time AA IBU Type Use
0.75 oz Cascade 30 min 7 24.02 Leaf/Whole Boil
0.5 oz Cascade 3 days 7 Pellet Dry Hop
Mash Steps
Amount Description Type Temp Time
-- Temperature 154 F 60 min
Other Ingredients
Amount Name Time Type Use
1 oz sweet orange peel 3 min Flavor Secondary
Yeast
White Labs - American Hefeweizen Ale Yeast WLP320
Attenuation (avg):
72.5%
Flocculation:
Low
Optimum Temp:
65 - 69 °F
Starter:
Yes
Fermentation Temp:
69 °F
Pitch Rate:
-
Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator
Target Water Profile: Norfolk, VA, USA
Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO3-
8 6 24 21 32 25

(copy of water requirements also from BF)
Water Gallons Quarts
Total mash water needed 6.36 25.5
Strike water volume at mash thickness of 1.5 qt/lb 1.88 7.5
Remaining sparge water volume 4.49 18
Grain absorption losses -0.63 -2.5
Mash Lauter Tun dead space -0.25 -1
Amount going into kettle 5.49 22
Volume increase from sugar/extract (early additions) 0.06 0.2
Adjusted starting boil size 5.55 22.2
Boil off losses -2.25 -9
Hops absorption losses -0.05 -0.2
Misc. losses -0.25 -1
Amount going into fermentor 3 12
Total: 6.36 25

I crush my grains myself at a local brew store, they look pretty crushed to me. I will try a second crush. They have a crusher with daul roller and hopper. Is there a setting I can put it on? They have it attached to a electric drill in which I go at a medium speed. My kettle is a basic one with temp gauge and on/close valve. My mash tun is a 10 gallon I got from lowes and attached all the fittings for on/off valve attached a filter inside which was simple sink tubing cutting the plastic out the inside and leaving the metal mesh ( seen it on youtube).

My Process

I sanitize all equipment with Star San. I measured out 7.5q of strike water in a brew bucket and pour it in kettle until I reach 160 and the pour strike water in mash tun and stir in grains ensuring no dough balls. I let sit for about 15 mins before I check the temp. usually it is about 152-156 (in my readings I read you can be +/- 2). I check the temp every 15 mins to ensure it holds. After 1 hour I perform a vorlauf usually about 4-6 qts to ensure good grain bed and no husk in wort. I use a food grade trading that I get from the LHBS that I reuse. (I boil the tube for about 30 mins let cool and then place it in star stan. I do this to ensure all bacteria is killed) I open the lever half way to slowly steep the wort in the bucket. My sparge water 18 qts was heated to 180 poured on top of grains and let rest at 174-178 for 10 mins. Do a vorlauf and get my second collection. (from reading your replies I dont stir to get a good rinse). I take a sample for wort reading, while pouring the rest into the kettle to boil. I wait until a rolling boil then set my timer for 90 mins and add my other ingredients at set times. Once flame out I stir for a couple of mins to get a good mix before I start my ice bath. I drain all wort into bucket and place in ice bath and add wort chiller which I bought at LHBS. This whole process takes 30 mins to chill wort to 76-78 on avg. I add yeast and stir like crazy for about 5 mins cap place air lock and ferment.

Thanks again all love the feed back.

 

[stratslinger]

OK - you may not be as off as you think. Are you taking your gravity reading off of your sparge, or off of what's in your kettle? Your final runnings in your sparge are going to be much lower gravity than your expected OG - most of the sugars have already been extracted by the mash! To get you actual pre-boil gravity, you need to finish sparging, stir up your kettle really well (the stuff that goes into the kettle tends to settle a bit before the boil begins, so the higher gravity stuff tends to be at the bottom of the kettle), then take a sample _from the kettle_.

Also, you're going WAY overkill on your sanitization. you don't have to sanitize anything pre-boil, as the boil itself will sanitize the wort. So there's no need to treat your mash tun, your kettle, the hose you use to transfer between the two, your mash paddle, or any of the rest there, with star san. There IS a need to sanitize your wort chiller and your fermenter, and anything else that would touch your wort once it's chilled.

But to go back to your gravity issue: My guess is that your crush and sparging method are both contributors. I'd run the grains through that mill twice next time, just to be safe, and try to split your sparge into two equal volumes and stir it up well each time. And make sure to check your thermometer - you may have read that temps can swing by +/- 2 degrees, but you'd be surprised at hom much difference that can make . It won't necessarily change the OG of your beer, but it can definitely have an impact on the FG. Before I figured out about the thermometer I mentioned above that was reading off by 2 degrees F, I had a string of beers that overattenuated by anywhere from 2-7 points!

 

[loosecannon81]

I tried to download this free program and it says it is protected by a password. Where do I get that from?

 

[brewkinger]

A couple of things from reading your last post:

As far as "(I boil the tube for about 30 mins let cool and then place it in star stan. I do this to ensure all bacteria is killed)" is concerned, there is no need to perform this action during mash and sparging. Any bacteria and nasties (and believe me when I tell you there are a bunch in the grains) will be killed off during the boil.
This of course would have absolutely no role in your low efficiency, but I thought I would mention it to save you a step in your future brewdays.

As a previous poster mentioned bringing the "sparge" and grains up to the temperature might well be a mash-out of sorts. What this essentially means is that you are denaturing the enzymes that are doing the converting into sugars, so this could be an issue. When I sparge, I just use water that is pretty close to 170 degrees and to be honest I have never checked the temps during my sparging. I may just have to do it next time so satisfy my curiosity.
You will have to wait for a more knowledgable member to chime in on the mash-out / sparge issue. In my opinion, it is probably not the main cause of your issues.

Having said that, the things that have been mentioned thus far would be where I would start.

The crush is HUGE component. I never reached 80% efficiency until I bought my own mill.
The mash and sparge process is really dependent on the setup that you have. I had a SS brain setup like you described and although it worked well, it did not get me the numbers I wanted.
The stirring was a HUGE component when I had the screen braid though.
The one main issue that you may want to check is a dry run using water in your mash tun cooler. Fill it with about 4 gal of water and then drain. See how much leftover water you have in the bottom. When I had my braid setup, I was losing about 0.5 gallons of water that was below the level of the drain.
So during the real mash session, imagine 2 quarts of sugary water, that was supposed to be in the kettle and instead it is in the bottom of your cooler.
Again, this is probably not a MAIN cause of your issues, but it could be a main component in a list of components.

Keep dialing it in and asking questions and we will get you where you need to be.

 

[loosecannon81]

Ok that is worth a good try. Would you mind explaining to me what you mean by splitting the sparge? To me that is taking 9qts of the 18 and pour in to let sit for 10 and stir crazy then to take the other 8qts and do the same and then get my second run off. Also I take the pre boil gravity once the first and second run off are in the bucket together. I do not stir on the first nor second run off, so you are saying i should correct. I am going to try the therm idea right now and would like you know.

 

[stratslinger]

That's almost what I mean. This is exactly what I'm talking about though:

Of the 18qt total, take 9qts, pour it in. To be honest, there's really no need to let it sit for the 10 minute rest (I've done with a 15 minute rest, a 10 minute rest, and no rest, and seen no difference). Stir it all up, vorlauf, and drain. Then take the other 9 qts and repeat - stir, rest (or don't), vorlauf, and drain.

The point of splitting the sparge in two is so that you're rinsing the sugars from the grain bed twice. If you simply added the sparge water in two stages but only drained it all at once, you wouldn't be getting the effect of a double rinse.

 

[loosecannon81]

You all have been much help. This is what im going to do. I got some PH stablizer, a new hydrometer, grains milled a second time, and ton of faith. lol. I am going to do my first run off like normal and for my sparge I will heat to 170 and split it stir for about 5 mins vorlauf and drain then repeat with my other 9 quarts. I will pour both run offs in the kettle stir really good and then take a reading. Should I drop and spin the hydrometer in the kettle or just take a sample out? Is there anything i am missing?

 

[brewkinger]

Process sounds good.

I have a refractometer so I collect a sample of first runnings in a pipette.
I also take a sample of the last bit coming out after second rinsing.
Then I stir the heck out of it in the kettle, take another refractometer sample and a larger sample and test with hydrometer for verification.

 

[brewkinger]

Sorry, I had to prematurely end that previous post because I was working and had stuff to do.

I suppose you could just drop (gently place) the hydrometer into the kettle but I would imagine it might be difficult to see the numbers (my old eyes could not do it well).
I prefer to take a sample out and test the gravity.

Everything else sounds like you are on the right track.

A bit of advice (warning)... You are eventually going to want your very own mill, so start saving for it now.
It is by far the one piece of equipment that has made the most difference in my overall results.

 

[stratslinger]

You all have been much help. This is what im going to do. I got some PH stablizer, a new hydrometer, grains milled a second time, and ton of faith. lol. I am going to do my first run off like normal and for my sparge I will heat to 170 and split it stir for about 5 mins vorlauf and drain then repeat with my other 9 quarts. I will pour both run offs in the kettle stir really good and then take a reading. Should I drop and spin the hydrometer in the kettle or just take a sample out? Is there anything i am missing?

You definitely want to take the sample out and chill it to the temperature your hydrometer is calibrated for.

You did do that on your previous brew, right?

Most hydrometers are calibrated to be accurate at 60F. There are calculators that can estimate the readings at higher temperatures, but they get less and less accurate the further you get from 60F. If you just placed your hydrometer into your kettle, even if you could accurately read the measurement, the conversion on it would only be an estimate...

EDIT: This is one of the other nice things about many refractometers - lots of them have automatic temperature correction (ATC) so you don't have to chill your sample. Just drop a couple drops of wort on the prism, wait 10 seconds, and you're ready to measure.