Pressurized Closed Loop Corny Keg Fermenting

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Just to clarify, ALL prv will slowly leak or just the 3 cheap ones you were referring to? I see in your picture you're using the relatively expensive PRV from McMaster Carr.

If you read all the spund valve links i posted there are 3 common PRV valves that people use. I've seen people report leaks on all of them.


The reason I ask is I have the same valve in your picture, I've been pressure testing my setup the past day or so and have about a 8 psi/day leak somewhere... Not that it matters much if the yeast are churning away.

Mine isn't quite that bad but its not ok to leave it attached unless there is active fermentation. My leakage problem got much better when I switched from tape to dope. The tape works ok for water but air/co2 has less surface tension than water so it can make its way out much easier.


Can you be more specific about when fermentation is ramped down enough for you to disconnect the PRV and how often you manually relieve the pressure after you've disconnected them? Do you still keep a pressure gauge on? Maybe just an inline shut off valve between the tee fitting and the PRV would be convenient here.

It's "safe" to remove when the amount of remaining sugars will not generate an excessive pressure, or excessive carbonation in the beer if left unvented. This number is highly variable depending upon temperature and pressure, but it's on the order of 2-6 specific gravity points usually.

For ales i check it after a few days and then monitor as needed. The pressurizing curve is like an exponential approaching steady state (i think there's a better name for this but it's not coming to me), so you'll see your sharpest rise in the first few days, then it'll taper off. Check it frequently to start, then less and less so as its needed loss often.

For lagers i normally wont' even check until it's been sealed up for a week or two. They are much slower.

The further they are from the target pressure, the less frequently i check them. The closer they are, the more frequently i check until they reach steady state.

To check i just attach my spund valve with the pressure relief turned up high so it doesn't release. The gauge will read the pressure in the keg. I then pull the PRV on the keg to relieve.
 
oh and if you look up differences in types of pressure valve's you will find out these work as designed. They are made to control pressure on a constant pressure line at least that is what I read with the little research I've done. I don't know much about pressure systems but I wondered if a back pressure valve would work better or are they even adjustable.
 
Thank you for all the answers.

Hey, anyone ever given any thought to replacing the PRV with a micro controller+pressure sensor+solenoid?
 
Thank you for all the answers.

Hey, anyone ever given any thought to replacing the PRV with a micro controller+pressure sensor+solenoid?

Now that would be pretty cool. Seems all I can accomplish is blowing yeast all over the inside of my fermentation chamber:mug:
 
Sounds like a lot to go wrong, but i could see that working a lot better than all the mechanical PRVs out there.
 
IF it worked reliably it would be straight forward to preprogram 'profiles' to automatically follow and adjust a pressure schedule based on time. Or the pressure schedule might adjust based on frequency of pressure reliefs. Or one might could integrate it with the Tilt hydrometer and program the profile to adjust pressures based on gravity. And/or one could integrate it into brewpi... oooh the possibilities!
 
I did find a way to get kraussen to go through the gas tip tube and into the serving keg.

First of all i REALLY pushed the limits of how much i can put in the keg. I was about 3/4-1" over the top weld.

I was expecting fermentation to kick off today so i put the PRVs on this morning and set them for a rough 5 psi. I really wanted 3.5 psi though. When i got home tonight i quickly released the excess pressure through the serving keg and magic, the transfer line instantly filled with foam.

So don't overfill the keg and don't release pressure rapidly and you'll be ok.
 
If the recipe calls for dry hops I add them to the keg in a suspended nylon bag (or equivalent) with 4-6 SG points remaining. This is to scavenge any oxygen introduced by the dry hops. A few days later the beer will be at FG and the dry hops will have given their all. During this time pressure is maintained to minize loss of aromas as the last of the fermentation gasses escape.

When you say during this time pressure is maintained to minimize aroma loss do you mean your maintaining 3.5 psi or you remove the spunding all together and let the pressure climb?
 
When you say during this time pressure is maintained to minimize aroma loss do you mean your maintaining 3.5 psi or you remove the spunding all together and let the pressure climb?

At this point i let the pressure start to rise.... maybe 10-15 psi. probably can just seal and monitor the keg at this point.
 
Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?
 
Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?

That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?
 
Could I use a 5 gallon keg to ferment a 2.5 gallon batch with this method? The SV would be a 2.5 gallon keg if possible.

I'm hoping this would allow greater head space to eliminate blow off issues. Used 5 gallon kegs are easier and cheaper to come by.

Would there be an issue during transfer because of the two different volumes?

That should work great. I can't see how you'd ever get 10" of kraussen in the FV.

This will also allow you to completely fill the 2.5 G keg.
 
That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?


Wasn't sure there needed to be equal volumes of co2 and beer in order to do an entire closed transfer like the OP does...the siphon would stop or something...
 
That would work just fine. I've used 7.5 gallon sanke kegs for 5 gallon batches and transferred to a 5 gallon keg. I'm currently using a 15.5 gallon sanke to ferment a 10 gallon batch that will go into 2 5 gallon kegs. What makes you think there would be an issue when transferring?

Crane, would you mind posting pics and/or explain your process and equipment that you use? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and what you mention is exactly what I'm considering.

In another thread, I posted a link to a new keg fermenter from Williams Brewing. What do you guys think?

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Crane, would you mind posting pics and/or explain your process and equipment that you use? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and what you mention is exactly what I'm considering.

In another thread, I posted a link to a new keg fermenter from Williams Brewing. What do you guys think?

Here are some pictures. One thing to clarify is that I do not use the same method of closed loop gravity/siphon transfer that the OP uses. I tried it a few times and it would always stop half way through. I think there is too much restrictions in my lines and disconnects that slows the transfer down and stops.

I use the standard sanke spear and coupler with a ball lock conversion kit. I built a small blow off collection vessel out of a water filter housing. I cut down a spare sanke spear I had lying around for the center tube in the collection vessel. The size is just right that the spear will slide over the plastic top and form an airtight seal with just friction. The spunding valve is connected to the output of the water filter housing. Although I should not necessarily need a blow-off collection vessel, there have been a few times I forgot to add the anti foam drops and did get some blow-off into my spunding which clogged it all up and I had to replace it.

The key to sanke kegs is cleaning something you can't touch or see. I built a keg washer with CIP ball to accomplish cleaning and sanitizing.

I imagine the Williams fermenter is a crap ton more expensive that getting a keg off Craigslist. With my setup I don't see the advantage of the wider opening as I have already solved the challenges of cleaning.

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My apologies for hijacking the thread but thank you! Did you have to modify the spear on the FV to minimize trub in the transfer to the receiving kegs?

The keg that I posted is expensive and I feel like I might be trying to solve a problem that I would be creating for myself if I go down this rabbit hole.
 
My apologies for hijacking the thread but thank you! Did you have to modify the spear on the FV to minimize trub in the transfer to the receiving kegs?

The keg that I posted is expensive and I feel like I might be trying to solve a problem that I would be creating for myself if I go down this rabbit hole.

I have never cut down any of my dip tubes in my kegs, except for the gas tubes in the corny kegs. There really is not that much yeast that gets picked up when you transfer. I have a picnic tap connected to a small hose that I use to draw off the first cup or 2 of beer before I start the transfer. I guess I have always been in the mindset of what if I want to uncut it later down the road. You can't do that.
 
Here are some pictures. One thing to clarify is that I do not use the same method of closed loop gravity/siphon transfer that the OP uses. I tried it a few times and it would always stop half way through. I think there is too much restrictions in my lines and disconnects that slows the transfer down and stops.

The same thing happens to me sometimes.

I think what is happening is that there is not a sufficient pressure differential between the 2 tanks to overcome the restriction from the 2 liquid dip tubes plus the 2 QDs plus the liquid tubing once the level in the FV starts to drop. In other words, the pressure exerted by the siphon is no longer enough once the higher tank level drops, and the lower tank level rises.

I've tested 2 different solutions, and both worked about the same:
1. If you are have enough pressure stored up (say >5 psi), burp the SK's PRV to give it a lower pressure relative to the FV.
2. Add external CO2 pressure to the FV. For me it only took a few seconds of gas to kickstart it.

If you could create a larger vertical displacement you could also help yourself.

There may be something else going on here because the gas-gas jumper should in theory equalize the head pressure, but I've clearly had situations where it wasn't.
 
This is great. I have a beat up keg for cheap that has a plastic air dip tube that would fit the bill for this. I was actually thinking of spending $ on a fermentation vessel to have the closed transfer ability. Already got the liquid dip tube shaped. Just curious, how much volume is in the bottom of a keg? I'm assuming fermenter loss of .5 gallons. To me even if I don't get 5 gallons in the SK, having a better shelf life on 4.5 gallons is worth it. Especially when I don't have to invest in other equipment!
 
It depends how far the dip tube is shortened / bent. Mine has only about 1/4 gallon of dead space.


Yep, probably should have specified but I guess it's easy to measure out some water to see where the dip tube is hitting. Duh!
 
Yep, probably should have specified but I guess it's easy to measure out some water to see where the dip tube is hitting. Duh!

That's what i did.... put in about half a gallon of watter then push it with a few psi until it's blowing air, then dump the rest into a measuring cup.

I actually find i have more dead space than i need for most beers so when i'm racking if i get to the end and i'm not sucking sludge i'll tilt the keg about 10 degrees. I probably get another glass or two that way.
 
That's what i did.... put in about half a gallon of watter then push it with a few psi until it's blowing air, then dump the rest into a measuring cup.

I actually find i have more dead space than i need for most beers so when i'm racking if i get to the end and i'm not sucking sludge i'll tilt the keg about 10 degrees. I probably get another glass or two that way.

Sweet, look forward to testing this out. Is there ever a time you would consider using a blowoff before attaching the SK to the FV? Are you able to control the krausen for ales and lagers using pressure and nothing else?
 
Sweet, look forward to testing this out. Is there ever a time you would consider using a blowoff before attaching the SK to the FV? Are you able to control the krausen for ales and lagers using pressure and nothing else?

Always add fermcap.

I am considering using a blow-off tube for the beer i'm making this weekend. I am doing a 1.057 pale ale and fermenting in the mid 60s. If i do that, it'll only be there for a day or two until the kraussen stops pumping out, then i'll switch to the purge/spund configuration.

I've had a mix of experiences so far.

I've had really good success with moderate OG lagers (1.050), fermented cold (48F), under about 5 psi. These peaked around 1cm of kraussen. Those never sent any blow off into the jumpers. Not even a drop.

I've had several ales fill the head space (~3") entirely with kraussen, and of those, only about half actually sent kraussen through the jumper tube. I surmise it has to do with how good the head retention of the beer was.

I've had 2 lagers, both that were nearly 1.060, also send kraussen through the jumper tube, although both were also fermented at 50F.
 
@schematix, with your mcmaster prv about how many turns per pound?

I finally put mine into service yesterday for the first time and forgot to figure this out myself before hand.

Also, is it critical that the SV be attached during fermentation or will just the water purge you described with the co2 tank be adequate?
 
@schematix, with your mcmaster prv about how many turns per pound?



I finally put mine into service yesterday for the first time and forgot to figure this out myself before hand.



Also, is it critical that the SV be attached during fermentation or will just the water purge you described with the co2 tank be adequate?



One thing I don't like about the McMaster prv is the lack of an indicator. It seems to be about 1 psi per turn, but I've never measured. I always set it via the guess and check method. Since I have a pressure gauge attached to mine it's easy to figure out. I start high and dial it back.

As far as keeping the SK attached, it depends. If you're doing a really great water purge (defined by getting the air bubble out under the lid), then I'd say no. But I do use it also to protect the prv from blow off. It'll need to be connected before the end though to build up some pressure and be equalized to the FV so that you can rack without applying external co2.
 
One thing I don't like about the McMaster prv is the lack of an indicator. It seems to be about 1 psi per turn, but I've never measured. I always set it via the guess and check method. Since I have a pressure gauge attached to mine it's easy to figure out. I start high and dial it back.
I do have a gauge on mine too, but when you make adjustments to increase pressure during fermentation how fast does it build up? I just assumed the build up of pressure would happen more slowly than what I'd have patience to sit and watch... I guess I'm about to find out. I did set it initially by over pressurizing the line with a co2 bottle and dialing it back to where I wanted it before I put it on the fermenter.

(edit)
Sorry, I forget you use ~3.5psi through the whole fermentation. I keep confusing you with the guys at WortMonger's thread that like to use pressure schedules.
 
I do have a gauge on mine too, but when you make adjustments to increase pressure during fermentation how fast does it build up? I just assumed the build up of pressure would happen more slowly than what I'd have patience to sit and watch... I guess I'm about to find out. I did set it initially by over pressurizing the line with a co2 bottle and dialing it back to where I wanted it before I put it on the fermenter.

(edit)
Sorry, I forget you use ~3.5psi through the whole fermentation. I keep confusing you with the guys at WortMonger's thread that like to use pressure schedules.

Depends on how active the fermentation is and how far of a step it is. If i'm trying to dial in 0.5 psi early in the fermentation process it's stable after 15 minutes.

Cool trick i found if you need to bleed a keg a little bit is to gently put your finger over the PRV outlet. Pressure will build and as long as you let some escape, but not all, it'll continue to vent.
 
This is my first attempt at this process. I put an airfilter housing in line to catch blowoff instead of a SV as I didn't have room for another keg in the fermentation fridge, good thing I did because I woke up this morning and the housing was nearly full and blowoff was bubbling up toward the prv.

Relevant stats for other newbies:
1.051 OG pale ale
nottingham dry yeast (not rehydrated)
65F
I'm guessing was filled to the weld (hard to tell through the starsan foam)
5 psi
10 drops of fermcap
I have not yet shortened the gas tube

One thing learned is that I may need to use a non-foaming sanitizer in the fv from now on because starsan's foam makes it impossible to see what my fill level is inside the corny... It was my first brew on a shiny new system so there was a lot of gettin to know each other on this brew day, I haven't got a sight glass yet and the dead space volumes, boiloff, etc were just guesses so I didn't have much of a reference point for when the keg was at the right level.
 
I just kegged a hoppy pale ale last night. I let it go to terminal gravity (took 9 long days). I injected approx 60g of dextrose (in liquid form) into each keg 1 hour prior to transfer to SK in order to ensure active fermentation to scavenge any O2 picked up.

Vitals:
OG: 13.6 P
FG: 4.1 P
Yeast: Wy1450. Pitched active.
Pressure: 10 psi
Temperature: 62F for first 48 hours, then increased 1F per day.
Fermcap: 5 drops
Beer level: 1" below weld
Kraussen ring: 1"
Blowoff result: None
 
Pressure: 10 psi

Aha! So you do vary from 3.5 psi. How do you decide what pressures you want to use for a particular brew?

How did you inject the dextros solution? Using the method @DaWhip described in post #21?
 
Aha! So you do vary from 3.5 psi. How do you decide what pressures you want to use for a particular brew?

How did you inject the dextros solution? Using the method @DaWhip described in post #21?

This was the first time i varied pressure intentionally. My last 2 beers had an unusual amount of blow off (more than zero) and I wanted to contain it because i was tired of cleaning the disconnects and hoses. I can't speak to the benefit of this other than to say i've never had an ale fermentation with less than 3-4" of kraussen, and this one stopped at 1".

I injected the dextrose using a 100mL syringe. I put the keg under external pressure from a tank (~8 psi), unscrewed the PRV, injected it, then re-installed the PRV. I've seen another method that coupled the syringe right to a gas QD and shot the solution right in through the gas port. I'll probably get the fittings to do that next time because it'll be easier and i won't have to connect external CO2.
 
schematix can you give more details on how you dry hop with the last SG points remaining?, Do you first disconnect the FV to the SK so you won't introduce any oxygen when you add the hops?
 
schematix can you give more details on how you dry hop with the last SG points remaining?, Do you first disconnect the FV to the SK so you won't introduce any oxygen when you add the hops?

1. Disconnect SK from FV (otherwise you'll back flow all your purge gas)
2. Attach external CO2 source to FV, 5-10psi is fine. this will help to maintain positive pressure.
3. Open PRV on FV to relieve pressure.
4. Remove lid.
5. Insert dry hops through lid. You can use a bag or stainless canister. Do not free ball them or you will clog the poppet. I tie my bag to the lid using a ring clamp on the PRV and some fishing line.
6. Re-install lid.
7. Tighten PRV
8. Purge head space a few times (it's not going to be perfect but that's why we're doing this with remaining gravity.
9. Reconnect SK and FV.
10. A few days later inject priming solution into FV. Wait until fermentation restarts, then rack as usual.
 
I was just checking NorCal Solution website and there is an option to add a gas in with pressure relief valve and a NPT male dip tube and thermowell for Speidels fermenters, i see Speidels fermenters as a big advantage over Keg with its size. I already have some Speidels fermenters so i will take a shot with these accessories and the close loop technique.
 

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