Potential Lactic acid mash issues

[Redtab78]

Ok, so playing around in beer smith 3 and the new mash ph tool, i am finding that i need to add close to 10ml of lactic acid to the mash to get my ph down. After doing some searching here and there, i am reading that this may be too much and could potentially effect flavor or impart a little too much sourness...but then i read elsewhere from others that it is fine, so i thought i would ask all of you here.

I do have a very good ph meter, and do not plan to add any until brew day when i take my actual measurements, this is just for the planning side, and playing with the new tool in the software, but i wanted to know, if what i measure matches what BS3 says, would 10ml be too much or should i combine lactic with some acidulated malt so as to not add too much lactaid.

thanks for any advice!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It depends upon the size of the batch, the recipe details, and the strike water details (analysis and added mineralization).

 

[Redtab78]

Ok, here is an example using a juicy bits clone 149F mash temp

Starting water:
Ca 27.5
Ma 5.5
So 12.50
Su 10
Chl 36
Bi 124.4

Target water:
Ca 91
Ma 12
So 30
Su 75
Chl 160
Bi 0

Grain bill:
10# pale
1# wheat, flaked
1# oats, flaked
.75# carapils

Additions to match target:
.91g salt mash
.91g salt sparge
.99g gypsum mash
1.04g gypsum sparge
1.71g epsom mash
1.71g epsom sparge
3.67g CaCl mash
3.83g CaCl sparge



Starting ph in BS3 is 5.75, using exactly 10ml of lactic acid to bring target ph to 5.20

 

[SEndorf]

Without plugging your numbers in to an alternative calculator, I can safely assume that Beersmith lactic addition calculations are way too high.
It's a known problem in both version 2 and 3.

 

[Redtab78]

Thats what i thought....i will plug some stuff into bru'n water and see what happens

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It's a bit unusual to target a mash pH of 5.2 vs. the far more normal 5.4, and you did not specify strike and sparge water quantities, but if I can make some guesses as to water quantities, it appears that the required 88% lactic acid additions to the strike water should be closer to 4.4 mL for pH 5.4 and 7.5 mL for pH 5.2.

I would target a mash pH of 5.4 to avoid the potential of adding sufficient lactic acid to be able to taste it.

 

[SEndorf]

For a beer this light, personally I would target 5.25 to 5.35

 

[RPh_Guy]

Tasting threshold for lactic acid is 300-400 ppm.
Some math will let you figure out your final ppm of lactic acid. I'm sensitive to the taste so I stay under 300 ppm (for non-sours obviously).

1 ppm is 1mg/L
Lactic acid is normally 88%
It's density is 1.21g/mL

So let's see 300ppm (0.300 g/L) in 5 gal, let's say 20 liters.
20L x 0.300 g/L x 1mL/1.21g x 1/0.88 = 5.6 mL

So I try to stay under 5.6 mL of 88% lactic acid per 5 gal finished beer.
I switch to RO water for light non-sour beers so I can hit target mash pH with minimal lactic acid.
YMMV, Some people would be OK with more.

Cheers

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To avoid adding too much lactic acid, it would be best if you use phosphoric acid for adjusting your sparge water to knock out most of its alkalinity. Or just use RO water for the sparge.

 

[RPh_Guy]

To avoid adding too much lactic acid, it would be best if you use phosphoric acid for adjusting your sparge water to knock out most of its alkalinity. Or just use RO water for the sparge.

Do you make your own phosphoric acid solution?

 

[Redtab78]

Wow, such differences....

The math above says 5.6ml
Beersmith 3 says 10.2ml
Bru'n water says 4ml (it also says .75g/gal CaCl and .19g/gal of NaCL is too much)

FWIW mash in is 4.47 gal, sparge is 5.79

I am just now starting to learn this water stuff, and tbh, its quite scary how theres so many variances

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wow, such differences....

The math above says 5.6ml

My math had nothing to do with your batch specifically.
5.6mL per 5 gal finished beer is the lower end of the tasting threshold. Any more than that I'd say is too much.

Sorry for the confusion!

Beer is based on plants. As such the chemistry is not always predictable. The calculators serve as a guide, not an exact mathematical calculation. Fortunately mash pH seems to be pretty forgiving, so don't worry about it when your mash pH is off target.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Wow, such differences....

I am just now starting to learn this water stuff, and tbh, its quite scary how theres so many variances

It (the variances) will assuredly stay that way until you run your own carefully performed DI_mash pH tests on each of your recipes grist components. Each software package makes different guesses as to the initial pH (the DI_mash pH) of each one of the malts and grains (or alternately as to the initial acidity of each grist component). Then on top of that each software package makes different computations (assumptions or educated guesses) with regard to the downward pH shift which will result from the addition of calcium and magnesium based minerals to the strike water. The various software packages (mine included) are all merely running on a series of multiple educated guesses. They simply can't know the actual facts for each individual case. And just as in travel, in order to get where you want to be, you need to know where you are at the onset, rather than guessing as to where you initially are.

If you can run DI_mash pH tests, and you utilize software capable of accepting such as input, then you will gain a huge leg up on the game, as you will be inputting actual facts to override the built in guesses.

 

[Redtab78]

Dl_mash ph test? Never heard of it, is there a thread on that somewhere?

Also, when is a good time to add the lactic to the mash, im assuming after dough in and a small rest so i can perform an actual ph test with my meter.....just not sure how long of a rest it needs

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Do you make your own phosphoric acid solution?

No, I purchase it (and I generally stick with 88% lactic acid). But my software is capable of accepting any % concentration of phosphoric acid that you can throw at it.

I have all of the math in place to also allow for this with lactic acid if there is sufficient demand, but for now my software is locked into solely 88% with regard to lactic acid concentration.

 

[SEndorf]

Dl_mash ph test? Never heard of it, is there a thread on that somewhere?

Also, when is a good time to add the lactic to the mash, im assuming after dough in and a small rest so i can perform an actual ph test with my meter.....just not sure how long of a rest it needs

I add the lactic immediately after the grains. Some test mash Ph in 10 minutes, but a more accurate reading (for my system) is around 15-20 minutes.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The best time to add acid (and ditto minerals, or perhaps bicarbonate) is to the strike water sometime before the mash. By the time you take a pH reading and can respond to it the bulk of the starch to sugar conversion will be completed. Most of it is finished by the 20 minute mark of the mash. The reason for taking pH measurements (and I like to use the 20 minute mark for this) is to take notes whereby to correct the next batch. Correcting the current batch on the fly is not likely to work out well, as even if you eventually wind up hitting your target mash pH via adjustment, the enzymes have already done their thing under a different set of mash pH conditions.

 

[SEndorf]

Agree with Silver is Money.
By the time of an accurate Ph reading, the proverbial ship has sailed. Take good notes.
However salt additions depend on your system. I use RO water and add all salts to the HLT. Based on a 20 Gallon volume, the calculations are easier and more accurate.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Also, when is a good time to add the lactic to the mash, im assuming after dough in and a small rest so i can perform an actual ph test with my meter.....just not sure how long of a rest it needs

I add the lactic acid to the strike water before heating. I've read its most effective when the water is at a lower temperature. There is a little bit of trust involved, but Bru'n Water rarely lets me down.

I add mineral additions during mash in.

I take a pH reading at 15 minutes into the mash.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A simple DI_mash ph test would require mashing 50 grams of a single malt or grain into 150 mL of DI water (or distilled if you can't find deionized) at 153 degrees F. Take the pH at the 20 minutes mark of the mash (cool the sample to room temperature before measuring pH) and this is your DI_mash pH. Do this for every individual grist component.

RO water often has too much alkalinity for a truly precise DI_mash test result, and much of what is sold as distilled water is highly questionable as well. But go with the purest water you can find in the order of deionized first, distilled second, and RO as the last choice. Pay no attention to the waters initial pH as its buffering capacity will be next to nothing and therefore its initial pH (which is likely to be somewhat low) is of no consequence.

 

[Redtab78]

So if i heat my entire volume of water that i will be using (roughly 10ish gallons) and treat that, then i would not actually be putting in such a large amount into the mash during the mash period, correct? So that 10ml of lactic acid would actually only be roughly 4.47 ml, (assuming it is mixed perfectly euqal in the 10 gallons) when i pull the 4.47 out for the dough in volume......

Am i correct in thinking that or is it still going to be 10ml no matter what because i will be using the rest for the sparge?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So if i heat my entire volume of water that i will be using (roughly 10ish gallons) and treat that, then i would not actually be putting in such a large amount into the mash during the mash period, correct? So that 10ml of lactic acid would actually only be roughly 4.47 ml, (assuming it is mixed perfectly euqal in the 10 gallons) when i pull the 4.47 out for the dough in volume......

Am i correct in thinking that or is it still going to be 10ml no matter what because i will be using the rest for the sparge?

This in not correct thinking. Sparge water neutralization is quite different from mash water adjustment, and is handled differently and fully independently of strike water by the software.

If you wind up using 10 mL of lactic acid overall (strike plus sparge) you may wind up tasting it regardless of where you initially added it,

Add the lactic (or phosphoric) acid(s) to the strike and sparge waters before heating, as heating water which contains bicarbonate (alkalinity) alters (reduces) its composition of Ca++ and Mg++ ions and also reduces its bicarbonate concentration in the process of heating. So pH and mineralization calculations and concentrations will both be off if you acidify after heating. This chemical process is similar to why you may eventually see calcium and/or magnesium scale deposits build-up on your hot water spigot and in your hot water pipes or in your hot water tank or in your cooking pots, coffee pot, etc... if you have unsoftened well water, or even if your "city" water is very hard.

 

[Redtab78]

Ok....so to sum it all up....collect my strike water, add the lactic amounts to it, then heat, and then dough in and add salts at the dough in (or add salts to the strike volume etc) then roughly 20 min in, take my reading.....note it to adjust for next batch....then continue normal process, taking another ph reading at vorlauf for note purposes....

Same time as mashing, collect and treat sparge water as necessary and then heat and sparge as normal....correct?


And keep my lactic addition below 5ml total to prevent going above 300ppm

And any further adjustments if needed, consider using phosphoric acid or aciduated malt....got it

 

[GRJBowers]

Ok....so to sum it all up....collect my strike water, add the lactic amounts to it, then heat, and then dough in and add salts at the dough in (or add salts to the strike volume etc) then roughly 20 min in, take my reading.....note it to adjust for next batch....then continue normal process, taking another ph reading at vorlauf for note purposes....

Same time as mashing, collect and treat sparge water as necessary and then heat and sparge as normal....correct?


And keep my lactic addition below 5ml total to prevent going above 300ppm

And any further adjustments if needed, consider using phosphoric acid or aciduated malt....got it

Acidulated malt is like adding lactic acid. Lactobacillus bacteria are on grain naturally so to make acidulated malt, the maltster encourages the bacteria to grow on the grain, producing lactic acid.

 

[Redtab78]

So, phosphoric acid to assist if needed to bring ph further

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Redtab78]

Without going way to deep into differences, is the 10% phosphoric ok or should i be looking for 75%?

Even better can someone share a source for some phosphoric that they have experience with?

 

[brewgar]

Amazon. Phosphoric - 10%.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Beware that 75 - 85% phosphoric acid is extremely dangerous.

Why not add your calculated minerals to your water (strike and sparge) and mix them in well to dissolve when you add the lactic and/or phosphoric acid, sometime before heating?

 

[The_Bishop]

The best time to add acid (and ditto minerals, or perhaps bicarbonate) is to the strike water sometime before the mash. By the time you take a pH reading and can respond to it the bulk of the starch to sugar conversion will be completed. Most of it is finished by the 20 minute mark of the mash. The reason for taking pH measurements (and I like to use the 20 minute mark for this) is to take notes whereby to correct the next batch. Correcting the current batch on the fly is not likely to work out well, as even if you eventually wind up hitting your target mash pH via adjustment, the enzymes have already done their thing under a different set of mash pH conditions.

People keep saying this but it's not 100% of the picture.

Mash pH helps with conversion, true. But it doesn't stop there. Mash pH carries into kettle pH, which will have a fairly pronounced effect on break formation, hops utilization, and final beer flavor. It's not merely for conversion.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

People keep saying this but it's not 100% of the picture.

Mash pH helps with conversion, true. But it doesn't stop there. Mash pH carries into kettle pH, which will have a fairly pronounced effect on break formation, hops utilization, and final beer flavor. It's not merely for conversion.

I acknowledge this and stand corrected. Even if you miss the enzymes pH window of highest activity (itself a compromise between alpha and beta) there can still be other downstream benefits for on the fly pH adjustment in the mash or even post mash.

 

[ajdelange]

Beware that 75 - 85% phosphoric acid is extremely dangerous.

Concentrated phosphoric acid certainly should be treated with respect but lets not exaggerate things too much. It's rated 3 on the NFPA health scale which means "Short exposure could cause serious temporary or moderate residual injury (e.g. liquid hydrogen, carbon monoxide, calcium hypochlorite, hexafluorosilicic acid)". With proper, but simple, protective measures (gloves, face shield, coat...) it can be handled safely. "Extremely dangerous" would be NFPA 4 stuff like hydrofluoric acid brief exposure to which can be fatal or cause severe residual injury.

For the brewing application it should be noted that it is also hygroscopic which means that as it takes on water from the air it will become weaker (normality at a given pH will drop).

 

[Redtab78]

If I use the 85% Phosphoric (HERE) I would use WAY less of it (maybe 1-2ml or so) making a 1,000 ml (for $25) last a very very long time.

I am very familiar with the dangers of chemicals, and proper handling techniques, so I am not worried about that, but the 10% stuff goes for $9 or so for only 8oz, and I would be using close to 30ml per batch of that....logic here seems that the 85% stuff would be more of a value, no?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes and it's good, when mixed with nitric for beer stone.

Were I to use it I would dilute the 85% stuff down to 9.3 % w/w as that is 1 N to pH 5.4. Thus if you have water of alkalinity 100 ppm (2 mEq/L) you know right away that you are going to need 0.9*2 = 1.8 mEq/L acid which is 1.8 mL/L to treat this water.

 

[Redtab78]

Ok, so going back and double check both beer smith and bru'n water to ensure all grain and water inputs were correct i am finding that the phosphoric acid additions for both are very close, but im now left wondering why such different reccomendations (both programs have matching salt additions as well as grist)

Beersmith 3 recommends a 5.6ml of 88% to bring mash ph down to 5.35 (for a total 10gal treatment)
Bru'n water reccomends a 2.2ml for mash and 2.4 for sparge to target 5.35ph for 4.6ml total
Brewers friend recommended a 4.2ml total to target the 5.35ph area

So which program should i use! Sucks i have paid money for all 3, wish i knew then what i know now....oh well, lifes lessons i guess

 

[brewgar]

Ok, so going back and double check both beer smith and bru'n water to ensure all grain and water inputs were correct i am finding that the phosphoric acid additions for both are very close, but im now left wondering why such different reccomendations (both programs have matching salt additions as well as grist)

Beersmith 3 recommends a 5.6ml of 88% to bring mash ph down to 5.35 (for a total 10gal treatment)
Bru'n water reccomends a 2.2ml for mash and 2.4 for sparge to target 5.35ph for 4.6ml total
Brewers friend recommended a 4.2ml total to target the 5.35ph area

So which program should i use! Sucks i have paid money for all 3, wish i knew then what i know now....oh well, lifes lessons i guess

Bru"n Water rules!

 

[ajdelange]

So which program should i use! Sucks i have paid money for all 3, wish i knew then what i know now....oh well, lifes lessons i guess

I'd say use all three. When you obtain answers like:

Beersmith 3 recommends a 5.6ml of 88% to bring mash ph down to 5.35 (for a total 10gal treatment)
Bru'n water reccomends a 2.2ml for mash and 2.4 for sparge to target 5.35ph for 4.6ml total
Brewers friend recommended a 4.2ml total to target the 5.35ph area

...that should make it quite plain to you that one is right and the others way off or, more likely, none of them is accurate. The latter is the case. None of them implements a very robust model of malt acid base characteristics.

I can't see into the detailed workings of any of them, of course, but from dialogs with their authors and the things Kai has published it is my feeling that Brewer's Friend has a model which is closest to the best model of malt acidity as we now understand it. There are still some shortcomings in its model in that it is a linear model and pHDi is estimated based on malt color. There are some new calculators out there that use essentially the right model in that they allow the user to specify pHDI but do not quite get the buffering part of it.

Use a spreadsheet or calculator only to get an idea of how much acid you might need (e.g. 2.2 - 5.6 mL) but use a test mash to determine how much you do need.

 

[Redtab78]

To be honest, i have decided the best way of knowing for myself is to brew 3 different batches using exact same recipie, in each batch i will use what the recommendation from one of the 3 models and test it myself with some friends to determine which one taste the best in the end.

 

[RPh_Guy]

To be honest, i have decided the best way of knowing for myself is to brew 3 different batches using exact same recipie, in each batch i will use what the recommendation from one of the 3 models and test it myself with some friends to determine which one taste the best in the end.

??
Your pH meter can tell you with one batch whether you hit your target mash pH.

Edit: though I would like to see more side-by-side blind tasting comparisons of different mash pH, to replicate the brulosophy results.

 

[ajdelange]

To be honest, i have decided the best way of knowing for myself is to brew 3 different batches using exact same recipie, in each batch i will use what the recommendation from one of the 3 models and test it myself with some friends to determine which one taste the best in the end.

A more productive approach would be to make a couple of test mashes starting with lactic acid scaled from the lowest level. Who knows at this point? That may give proper mash pH. If it doesn't then do another test mash with the maximum level. You can then interpolate (or, much less likely, extrapolate) between the two pH reading to determine the amount of acid needed for the desired pH.