Post-Fermentation Water Adjustments (in Keg)

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dr_bollinger

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I'm wondering how many people are consistently making mineral adjustments to a beer after it's fermented? In two experiments, I've had great success.

I had a saison that was finishing a little on the sweet side, so I added a few grams of CaSO4 (in solution) into the keg. Voila. Dry, crisp finish.

I currently have an imperial stout that had a bit of a thin mouthfeel. I added 4 grams of CaCl (again, in solution) into the keg. Now, if anything, it's a little too thick and sweet, and I'm considering adding another couple of grams of CaSO4.

The mineral profile of a beer seems to have a major, obvious impact. Water chemistry is a real thing!
 
I'm wondering how many people are consistently making mineral adjustments to a beer after it's fermented? In two experiments, I've had great success.

I had a saison that was finishing a little on the sweet side, so I added a few grams of CaSO4 (in solution) into the keg. Voila. Dry, crisp finish.

I currently have an imperial stout that had a bit of a thin mouthfeel. I added 4 grams of CaCl (again, in solution) into the keg. Now, if anything, it's a little too thick and sweet, and I'm considering adding another couple of grams of CaSO4.

The mineral profile of a beer seems to have a major, obvious impact. Water chemistry is a real thing!

Any thoughts of adding those calcium salts to the mash or boil where much of that calcium would deposit with materials that would otherwise reach the finished beer?
 
Any thoughts of adding those calcium salts to the mash or boil where much of that calcium would deposit with materials that would otherwise reach the finished beer?

I do adjust my brewing water (mash and sparge water) using lactic acid, CaCl and/or CaSO4. I use Brewers Friend to build my recipes and determine an appropriate water profile. I usually add 4 to 6 grams of CaCl or CaSO4 to my water, so there's always plenty of calcium.

But I've found that, if the finished beer is not tasting how I would like, further adjustments to the mineral profile of the beer can work wonders. And it's super easy! I just boil the salts in 200 ml of water in a mug in my microwave for a few minutes to sterilize, dissolve the salts, and drive off the oxygen, then open the keg and dump it in!
 
Many people add calcium and/or sodium chlorides and/or gypsum to finished beer in the glass seeking guidance in adjusting levels for subsequent brews. I've never heard any mention of treating the whole batch but why not? I have heard of adding lactic acid to finished beer in order to tweak its pH (for long term stability?) and as a cheap and dirty way to make Berliner Weiße.
 
Many people add calcium and/or sodium chlorides and/or gypsum to finished beer in the glass seeking guidance in adjusting levels for subsequent brews. I've never heard any mention of treating the whole batch but why not? I have heard of adding lactic acid to finished beer in order to tweak its pH (for long term stability?) and as a cheap and dirty way to make Berliner Weiße.

I have experimented in the glass to figure out how much salts to add to the keg. I’m not sure why you would do it only to seek guidance for subsequent batches (well, I guess if you had bottled the batch then it would make sense).

I’m surprised that more people aren’t treating whole batches with salts. It works wonders!
 
I’m not sure why you would do it only to seek guidance for subsequent batches (well, I guess if you had bottled the batch then it would make sense).
Each to his own, of course, but it makes a lot more sense to me to add all the salts at once when you prepare the mash liquor rather than be cavalier at that point and assume that you'll just fix it in the keg if you screw up in the brewery. If you find a brew deficient in sulfate when you taste the finished beer why would you NOT add more sulfate the next time you brew it?
 
Each to his own, of course, but it makes a lot more sense to me to add all the salts at once when you prepare the mash liquor rather than be cavalier at that point and assume that you'll just fix it in the keg if you screw up in the brewery. If you find a brew deficient in sulfate when you taste the finished beer why would you NOT add more sulfate the next time you brew it?

To each their own? I do both of those things already, pal:
  1. I carefully design my water profiles along with my recipes, and add all necessary minerals on my brew day.
  2. I track my post-fermentation mineral additions and incorporate those extra minerals into my recipe for next time.
But I have also had great success refining my mineral profiles after the fact. There's nothing cavalier about it. I'm not sure why I'm meeting with any resistance at all.

Ever heard of "seasoning to taste" when cooking an unfamiliar recipe? It's the best practice. This is literally the exact same.
 
This is an interesting topic. Salts added after fermentation will clearly have a different effect than those added pre fermentation. For example, too much calcium or magnesium can dramatically extend the lag phase or even halt fermentation completely. Acknowledging this difference opens up what I hope will be good conversation. Wish I had more to add.
 
This is an interesting topic. Salts added after fermentation will clearly have a different effect than those added pre fermentation. For example, too much calcium or magnesium can dramatically extend the lag phase or even halt fermentation completely. Acknowledging this difference opens up what I hope will be good conversation. Wish I had more to add.

An interesting topic indeed in many respects.

Can I ask from where came your information about calcium and magnesium concentration extending the lag phase? That's quite contrary to my understanding which is that a shortage of magnesium extends lag as will calcium when it is in such excess to be in competition with magnesium.

Your information might have superseded mine.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1983.tb04151.x

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1999.tb00021.x

Much of any calcium added to the mash will be deposited there or in later stages while its sulphates or chlorides mostly reach the finished product. It is therefore unlikely the higher levels of calcium might be used by the typical homebrewer, meanwhile the phosphates and oxalates deposited can reduce the buffering effect and requirement to acidify the finished product.

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Hey cire, my information appears to be from the same sources as yours but I'm a little confused. Both of those articles mention the deleterious effect on fermentation that an 'excess' of calcium can cause. In general, on this subject, I feel ill equipped to comment further and would defer to those far more knowledgeable than I. Not the least of whom is adjelange. I commented simply to highlight that salts after fermentation are not necessarily the same as salts during the mash, which might have been overlooked. I'm definitely going to experiment with this, so cheers OP for the heads up.
 
Hey cire, my information appears to be from the same sources as yours but I'm a little confused. Both of those articles mention the deleterious effect on fermentation that an 'excess' of calcium can cause. In general, on this subject, I feel ill equipped to comment further and would defer to those far more knowledgeable than I. Not the least of whom is adjelange. I commented simply to highlight that salts after fermentation are not necessarily the same as salts during the mash, which might have been overlooked. I'm definitely going to experiment with this, so cheers OP for the heads up.

This is a good point, and one that I considered before experimenting with post-fermentation mineral additions. I recall concluding that calcium and mash pH are important to the mash, boil and fermentation, but that Cl and SO4 concentrations are primarily implicated in the taste of the beer, and have a similar effect on taste regardless of when in the process they are introduced.

I can't remember my source(s), but I'll give it some further thought. It definitely stands to reason, however, as Cl and SO4 have dramatic taste implications in water (and, in my experience, in beer in the glass or the keg).

That said, I don't doubt that the presence of Cl and SO4 have implications for the mash, boil and fermentation.
 
I'm afraid I don't know anything about the effects of excess calcium ion. It is important in intracellular signalling and yeasts have a transport mechanism to get it into the cell and I suppose it is possible to overwhelm that system but I would think that there would be some regulatory mechanism involved such that no more than is needed would be taken in. Putting aside absurdities such as concentration sufficient to produce excess osmotic pressure about all I can offer is 'too much of a good thing' and that isn't very helpful I'm sure.


Now what really got me thinking with respect to calcium in brewing was:

Much of any calcium added to the mash will be deposited there or in later stages while its sulphates or chlorides mostly reach the finished product.
Malts are typically 0.13% calcium [Briggs] which means 1.3 grams per kg and if mashed with 2 L of water (easy for the math) and assuming that this leads to 3.2 L beer the available calcium per liter of beer from the barley is 406 mg (20 mEq)/L. Beer contains typically much less than this. From [H,B,S &Y]: 40 - 140 mg (2 - 7 mEq)/L for British beers 3.8 - 102 mg (.194 - 5.1 mEq)/L and 10 - 135 mg (0.5 - 6.75 mEq)/L for 'lagers'. Some lagers are brewed with very soft water and we might assume that the beers with the lowest calcium contents are brewed with the softest water. This makes it appear that, in the limit as water approaches 0 hardness something like 20 mEq of calcium are precipitated from the amount of water equivalent to a liter of finished beer. This, in turn leads to the hypothesis that at least this much calcium must be precipitated from any beer. Part of the support for this is that 20 mEq of calcium is 10 mmol (576 mg). Malt is typicall 1.25% phosphate [Briggs] so that the equivalent potential concentration in the finished beer is 12500/3.2 = 3906 mg/L. Thus only about 15% of the malt's phosphate is required to precipitate all its calcium and note that calcium precipitates in other ways.

Applying this hypothesis to beer with higher calcium e.g. one at the upper end of the spectrum with 7 mEq/L (beer) concentration we conclude that at least 7 mEq calcium, referenced to the beer must have been present in the source water. Assuming that the sparge and source water are the same this implies CaSO4 content of 3.5 mmol which is 602 mg/L of the dihydrate. This is about what I gather the more avid fans of Burtonization use so perhaps out hypothesis, while hardly solidly proven, is not so unreasonable and it is clear that calcium added to the brewing liquor or water does make it through to the beer. Of course we don't know whether those surviving ions came from the malt or the addition but it seems to be true that if you add more calcium to the brew pot you'll have more calcium in the beer.

Now lets suppose that we have added 7 mEq/L of calcium all on the hot side and that the only dilutions we do are on the hot side. Kolbach tells us that 2 mEq of hydrogen ions should be produced. As 10 mEq of calcium produce 14 mEq of protons in the phosphate reaction it is apparent that 10/7 = 1.43 are produced by these 7 mEq of calcium and that of the 7 only 1.43 are precipitated with calcium. Further evidence that calcium survives but note again as we have before that there are other ways in which calcium can precipitate.

Thus although it looks to me as if a good part of the calcium added on the hot side is not going to be precipitated there is certainly no argument that any calcium added on the cold side will be.

...View attachment 563881 meanwhile the phosphates and oxalates deposited can reduce the buffering effect and requirement to acidify the finished product.

This caught my eye because I've seen it before in some of the older literature and it never made much sense to me.
Let's go back to the observation that malt typically contains 1.25% phosphate as H2PO3--. The graph below shows two curves. The blue curve shows (vertical axis) the acid that must be added to 1 kg of Weyermann's regular Pilsner malt to get it to the mash pH's indicated on the horizontal axis. This curve represents real measured data. It crosses the 0 axis at pH 5.62 which is the DI mash pH for this malt. The red curve assumes that this malt contains 1.25% phosphate and that all of it is unbound such that it can react with calcium which it is assumed to do. Without the phosphate less acid is required to lower the pH by a given amount.

WyermnPilsBuf.jpg

But we have observed that not all the phosphate is precipitated by any means. Fifteen percent of it covers all the malt calcium and as some calcium is precipitated with proteins less than 15% of the buffering of the phosphate system should actually be deducted. The thin red line on the chart (labeled 15%) is discernably different from the blue line at the right side of the plot) represents the titration data with 15% of 1.26% deducted.

Now this represents no added calcium. As we know, if we added 7 mEq calcium it should produce 2 mEq protons at knockout. In the mash we might see half that so that the thin curve would come down by 1 mEq at every point. At a nominal mash pH of 4.5 that's 10% of the acid requirement which is enough that it should be taken into account bu those doing heavy Burtonization.

Note that the slope of the blue curve -1 mEq is the same as the slope of the blue curve so that the buffering is actually not changed at all. That's in part why this caught my eye. It's much simpler to say that each mEq of added calcium produces 1/3.5 mEq acid than it is to try to explain it in terms of the phosphate buffering system
 
............. although it looks to me as if a good part of the calcium added on the hot side is not going to be precipitated there is certainly no argument that any calcium added on the cold side will be.

We see these processes from different sides, you seeing phosphates depositing calcium and I, calcium depositing phosphate. Yet once we decide the recipe the amount of phosphate is fixed unless we review the recipe while calcium might be added at different stages to have differing effects.

This caught my eye because I've seen it before in some of the older literature and it never made much sense to me.

This made me smile on more than one account for I imagine that being said in times to come of many posts not far from here and also the following piece that I have borrowed from one version of a history of beer.
However, it follows the advice of Professor William Whewell from Cambridge (who coined the term ‘science ’ around 1840) that new insights should not be taught until 100 years have passed to avoid scientists ridiculing themselves. It ends therefore with the advent of World War I.



 
Why in the world anyone would force themselves to drink so-so beer when they could tweak it, with a bit more sulfates or chlorides, into a great beer is beyond me. Its like being able to get three versions of the same beer from one batch. Base, extra sulfate, extra chlorides. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

And speaking of no brains, somewheres in the bowels of this site somebody had noted the ppms of gyp and cacl that are added when something like 1/10th gram goes in to 1/2 liter of beer.

Anyone here up for some quick calcs?
 
....you seeing phosphates depositing calcium ....
I see precipitation of apatite whenever the product of the phosphate and calcium concentrations exceeds the solubility product whether that be caused by calcium in the malt, added calcium or a combination thereof or by the malts intrinsic phosphate content or added phosphoric acid/salt or a combination thereof.


However, it follows the advice of Professor William Whewell from Cambridge (who coined the term ‘science ’ around 1840) that new insights should not be taught until 100 years have passed to avoid scientists ridiculing themselves. It ends therefore with the advent of World War I.

A scientist understands that if he is doing his job he is almost certain to wind up in a position where he will have to at least contradict himself with respect his earlier work. Scientists gain insight as they continue to investigate and while the basic science itself seldom changes (Born hypothesis augments, not contradicts quantum theory) but sometimes it does in dramatic fashion (Michelson-Morley). Today we have the laptop computer with more power, orders of magnitude more in fact, than the two freight elevator loads of equipment I had available an amazingly short time ago. The basic data behind the blue curve in my last post was collected by laborious lab work (it's in Palmer's book) but the actual pH measurments were recorded by a computer. The computer let me quickly construct the best curve through the data points and, of course, makes deriving a phosphate free curve in minutes without a trip to the 'computer center' which would have been necessary only a few years back. It's immediately clear from the blue curve that the buffering of malt is not phosphate dominated. A phosphate dominated is curved in the opposite direction and grows steeper as the pH gets closer to the second pK. Without this kind of readily available computing workers in the 70's ans 80's would not have had this kind of insight available.

But it is still surprising that they emphasize buffering reduction as the cause of reduced acid requirement when it is in fact the proton release associated with the precipitation, not the insignificant loss of buffer, that is responsible.
 
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Why in the world anyone would force themselves to drink so-so beer when they could tweak it, with a bit more sulfates or chlorides, into a great beer is beyond me.
An experienced brewer knows how to manage his mineral additions in HLT and kettle so that the beer produced is great beer. There should be no need for tweaking the finished beer.

When I was younger (much younger) and patronized blue collar bars it was very common to see the drinkers adding salt (from shakers all along the bar) to their beer. I guess they did this to make it sweeter. In any case they liked it better with the added salt than without. As far as I am concerned anyone who prefers the beer he has in hand with added salt or tabasco or pineapple slices should add salt or tabasco or pineapple slices to it.
 
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so are you saying you believe in some sort of immaculate conception of the perfect beer recipe? no testing recipes, no adjusting the balance to get it just right, none of that. just a fully formed, fully detailed perfect recipe, on the first try?
 
so are you saying you believe in some sort of immaculate conception of the perfect beer recipe? no testing recipes, no adjusting the balance to get it just right, none of that. just a fully formed, fully detailed perfect recipe, on the first try?
What I believe is that someone who had actually read what I've posted here couldn't possibly come up with such a conclusion.
 
An experienced brewer knows how to manage his mineral additions in HLT and kettle so that the beer produced is great beer. There should be no need for tweaking the finished beer.

you seem to indicate a rather rigid position that post fermentation adjustments are a bad thing and should never be needed. seems like a pretty strong judgement statement.

no?

because that means no final chloride/sulfate additions. no pH adjustments. no finings in the brite. no extra dry hop rounds. no pre-isomerized alphas. no distillate or other hop extracts into brite. and no forced carbonation if we want to be really technical about it.

or is this not what you are trying to say? what am i missing?
 
Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said that an experienced brewer has learned to manage his mineral additions (and his grain bills and his mashing programme and his fermentation practices...). Is it too much to expect one to be able to extrapolate that from 'experienced'? It was quite plainly stated in No. 4 that addition of salts to finished beer is a tool that many brewers use to help them refine their water treatment practices. I often assume that because this is the Brewing Science forum that readers here will be aware of these things. I am quite often wrong about that.
 
beautiful thing to acknowledge one is often wrong. a man's got to know his limitations.

if you want to restrict your statement to minerals then we are in agreement for the most part. but there are plenty of folks at home and commercially that dont use RO systems, and see seasonal variations in water chemistry. weekly water reports are impractical for home. in commercial it depends on size. for a home brewer or small micro, i dont think that takes away from their "experience" or skill. your statement would seem to indicate otherwise.
 
I like to cook. I never put a finished soup/stew/sauce/etc. into the serving dish before I've tasted a little bit to decide whether or not I need to add some finishing spices (to the whole batch).

I can't believe I haven't approached homebrew in the same way, it seems like a no brainer!
 
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