Possible problems with 2nd brew attempt

[drycreek]

Did my first batch about 3 months ago and it came out pretty good. It was a blonde ale from my LHBS and the flavor was good, although it did have a slightly unpleasant aftertaste that I can't quite put my finger on.

I started my second batch about 2 months ago, which was a Breckenridge Avalanche clone. Here is the recipe:

Grains/malt:
1/2 lb crystal 60L
1 oz black roasted barley
1-1/2 lbs pale ale malt
1 lb Munich malt
2 oz chocolate malt

Extract:
5 lbs amber extract

Sugar boost:
14 oz BrewVint sugar

Hops:
1/4 oz Chinook
1/4 oz Tettnang
1/2 oz Hallertau

Yeast:
BrewVint yeast fuel pellet added in last 15 mins of boil
White Labs English Ale 002

OG: 1.046
FG: 1.012

I was pretty patient with the timing on this brew compared to the first brew. I brewed on 10/25 and put it in my primary fermenter, then transferred to the carboy on 11/7, and then bottled on 11/29.

So today I opened one up to see how it was tasting and I wasn't too thrilled with the result. It still tastes fairly sweet, as if some of the priming sugar hasn't fermented yet. I also noticed minimal head when I poured it into a glass, which further indicates that maybe my carbonation isn't complete. It's been almost 3 weeks and my first brew was tasting fine after just 2 weeks. There is a noticeable difference, to the point that the 2nd brew is almost undrinkable at this stage.

Also, the slightly unpleasant aftertaste that I mentioned with the first brew...it's much stronger this time around. I wish I could describe it but I just can't. Not really sweet, not really bitter, just kinda odd. Could that be due to my bottle cleaning or sanitizing process? The method I used was to soak the bottles in the bathtub in bleach water, then rinse them out, then run them through the dishwasher on heavy cycle with hot water and no detergent. And I used whatever powder sanitizer came with my brew kit by following the dilution directions on the container. Sanitized all equipment, bottle caps, etc.

I guess I don't know where to go from here and I'm hesitant to start my 3rd brew until I get this figured out. I'd also like to salvage the 2nd brew if at all possible. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I can't see any problems with the recipe that would cause off flavors. The only thing that comes to mind is the classic "extract twang". I got it all the time with my extract batches when I first started brewing. It was this "twang" that pushed me to go AG after just 5 batches. I haven't noticed it since.

You may also want to check out your water source.

As for the sweetness, it will probably get better with a little more time in the bottles. Some of the more complex beers can take a few months before they hit their peak.

I see you're using a lot of grains... are you doing Partial Mashes or just steeping the grains in your kettle? I'm assuming you're just steeping because of the low SG. Keep in mind that Munich malt needs to be mashed in order to see any gains from it.

 

[drycreek]

I'm just steeping the grains in the kettle. They all came mixed in one bag, which I put into a nylon grain bag, and I believe I let them steep for 15 minutes. (whatever the recipe said)

My OG was lower than expected, which makes me believe I didn't get as much sugar from the grain as I could have. I'm thinking I might should've squeezed the grain bag so to speak, or agitated it slightly to get some better turnover in there.

Water source could be an issue. I have fairly hard tap water, to the point that we get calcium or magnesium deposits in our ice. We have a Brita filter on the faucet for drinking water, and all water for the beer came from that. I had considered using bottled water, but a buddy talked me out of it because he said the minerals in tap water are good for the beer. Is that true? Also, I could check the pH because I'm not sure where it is.

 

[greeneyed]

What temps are you fermenting and carbing at?

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Dry. Two thoughts:

1. You need to be clarity n whether you are brewing extract with specialty grains or partial mash. It looks to me like you used a partial mash recipe with an extract with specialty process.

2. What temperature have you been storing your bottles at? Unlike fermentation, warmer is better for carbonation. At least 70 degrees. Also, it is not unusual for conditioning to take 3 or more weeks.

 

[drycreek]

All of the fermenting and carbonation has been in my house, which is kept around 68-70F in the winter. Is that too cold? I've always heard the 70F guideline, but I looked up my yeast on the White Labs website and they say optimum temperature for fermentation is 65-68F.

I know conditioning can take a while and the longer you wait the better. It's been almost 3 weeks though, and I thought I'd be able to get a pretty good sneak peak by this point. I'm about to leave home for a couple weeks, so maybe it will improve during that time.

On that note though, I'm going to turn the heat down while I'm away, probably in the 50-55F range. Will that hurt anything as far as my brew goes? I don't have anything fermenting right now, so I'm only concerned about this particular batch that is in bottles.

 

[waldoar15]

Hi Dry. Two thoughts:

1. You need to be clarity n whether you are brewing extract with specialty grains or partial mash. It looks to me like you used a partial mash recipe with an extract with specialty process.

2. What temperature have you been storing your bottles at? Unlike fermentation, warmer is better for carbonation. At least 70 degrees. Also, it is not unusual for conditioning to take 3 or more weeks.

Yeah, that looks like a PM recipe.

 

[thristy]

Im new to home brewing and just finished my first brew a pale ale its 5 weeks in the bottle and I have a after taste sort of like plastic or styrafoam is this what yours taste's like

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I'm just steeping the grains in the kettle. They all came mixed in one bag, which I put into a nylon grain bag, and I believe I let them steep for 15 minutes. (whatever the recipe said)

My OG was lower than expected, which makes me believe I didn't get as much sugar from the grain as I could have. I'm thinking I might should've squeezed the grain bag so to speak, or agitated it slightly to get some better turnover in there.

Water source could be an issue. I have fairly hard tap water, to the point that we get calcium or magnesium deposits in our ice. We have a Brita filter on the faucet for drinking water, and all water for the beer came from that. I had considered using bottled water, but a buddy talked me out of it because he said the minerals in tap water are good for the beer. Is that true? Also, I could check the pH because I'm not sure where it is.

This is definately a PM recipe. From now on, when ordering kits, make sure you specify Extract with Grains until you upgrade your equipment to handle PM. The reason you didn't get good conversion out of your grains is...

A. Steeping doesn't usually allow the grains enough time to convert into sugar. Also, Munich absolutely HAS to be mashed. No way around it. So that's a lot of gravity points you lost by steeping instead. I'm suprised the recipe told you to steep. I'm not sure if I'd buy from that company again.

B. Even if you steep grains, you will sometimes get a little conversion, but not unless you're steeping for 30-45 minutes.

All of the fermenting and carbonation has been in my house, which is kept around 68-70F in the winter. Is that too cold? I've always heard the 70F guideline, but I looked up my yeast on the White Labs website and they say optimum temperature for fermentation is 65-68F.

I know conditioning can take a while and the longer you wait the better. It's been almost 3 weeks though, and I thought I'd be able to get a pretty good sneak peak by this point. I'm about to leave home for a couple weeks, so maybe it will improve during that time.

On that note though, I'm going to turn the heat down while I'm away, probably in the 50-55F range. Will that hurt anything as far as my brew goes? I don't have anything fermenting right now, so I'm only concerned about this particular batch that is in bottles.

50-55F won't hurt your beer, but it won't carbonate any faster either.

 

[drycreek]

Can you explain what the difference is between a partial mash and an extract with grains?

Since I clearly made a mistake in my process here, it seems to me like that would result in less flavor and lower alcohol content, correct? And if that's the case, then I still don't understand the lack of carbonation. I guess I'll just give it more time.

Most of all is this underlying flavor that I can't identify. I'll pay close attention next time I drink one to see if I can better describe it.

 

[drycreek]

By the way, here is what it says on the page I ordered from:

Breckenridge Brewery. Denver, Colorado.

Extract kit includes: priming sugar, milled specialty grains in a muslin bag, hops, and detailed instructions. Mini-Mash kits do not come with grain bags. We recommend a Reusable Nylon Grain Bag. Mini-mash involves additional time for steeping. All grain brewing requires additional equipment and different brewing techniques.

Fermentable Sugars:
Extract: 7.25 lb Liquid Malt Extract, 1 lb Base Grains, 0.5 lb Specialty Grains.
Mini Mash: 5.25 lb Liquid Malt Extract, 2.5 lb Base Grains, 0.5 lb Specialty Grains.
All Grain: 10 lb Base Grains, 0.5 lb Specialty Grains.

Makes 5 US gallons.

Kit Option:
Choose Extract for the most common method of home brewing. Mini-mash replaces some extract with base grains, needs additional steeping time, and requires a grain bag (not included, but available in our online catalog). All grain brewing requires additional equipment to convert the grains to fermentable sugars as well as different brewing techniques explained in most homebrewing books.

So it gives you the choice of Extract, Mini-Mash, and All-Grain. I did the Extract on my first brew and it was a little boring to be honest. A friend recommended the Mini-Mash option, I talked to the homebrew store about what I wanted to do, and they said it would be a good idea. They recommended it over Extract, and they said it would produce a better beer. All I needed was a grain bag so I could steep the grains, then add the extract. I don't understand why they would recommend all of this and sell me that kit if it won't work with just steeping. ???

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

First of all...I can't stand Breckenridge Brewery, so I'd never order a kit from them, but that's just my opinion.

I also am of the opinion that once you recieve bad advice from a shop, don't trust them again. If you have questions about a recipe or process, I suggest asking here, not there.

Mini-Mash is a process just like All-grain, only your using around half the grain and substituting it for extract. You still need to mash in a Mash Tun which is completely different than steeping.

I think they probably just misunderstood what you were planning to do with the recipe.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Can you explain what the difference is between a partial mash and an extract with grains?

Since I clearly made a mistake in my process here, it seems to me like that would result in less flavor and lower alcohol content, correct? And if that's the case, then I still don't understand the lack of carbonation. I guess I'll just give it more time.

Most of all is this underlying flavor that I can't identify. I'll pay close attention next time I drink one to see if I can better describe it.

Extract with specialty grains just involves steeping the grains before the boil at around 150 degrees for 20-30 minutes.

Partial or Mini-Mash actually involves more equipment. You will still be soaking grains, but in a different way. Your temps will be very important, and you'll actually be converting starches to sugars during this process. This is something that can't fully be accomplished with steeping.

Yes, you'd notice lower alcohol, but the flavor should still be there. You'd still be getting flavor and color from the grains, just no alcohol.

Did you boil any grains by chance? This may have caused some off flavors.

Also, I think I read that you thought you should squeeze the bag earlier in the thread. This isn't recommended.

 

[Pappers_]

And if that's the case, then I still don't understand the lack of carbonation. I guess I'll just give it more time.

As noted earlier, increase the temperature for bottle conditioning. 68 is ok for fermentation, but a little low for bottle conditioning, in my experience. 72 would be better for bottle conditioning. Do you have a bathroom that stays warmer, or a closet? And three weeks isn't a magic number - some beers carb faster and others slower. If carbonation is low, it doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong.

 

[Dewangski1]

As noted earlier, increase the temperature for bottle conditioning. 68 is ok for fermentation, but a little low for bottle conditioning, in my experience. 72 would be better for bottle conditioning. Do you have a bathroom that stays warmer, or a closet? And three weeks isn't a magic number - some beers carb faster and others slower. If carbonation is low, it doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong.

In my experience, particularly with Munich, much more than 3 weeks is required in the bottle. You didn't really use that much where it would seem to be a problem, but Munich is very harsh until it realizes that it's in beer and in a bottle for the long run and it might as well calm down.

Just to make sure, you're beer is fairly clear correct and you've been good about sanitation?

 

[wvlheel]

My first 3 batches had an off taste - a "sweetness" that I didn't like at all. I then discovered this site and used a swamp cooler for fermentation on the batch that I am drinking now. I kept fermentation temps in the low 60's (water temp). This beer is refreshingly clean tasting. I can only attribute the difference to the change in fermentaion temps.

I was determined to keep fermentation temps down for this batch. I changed ice packs out twice a day and kept the water temp on my swamp cooler in the low sixties for the first 4 days of fermentation.

I also started adding 1/2 of my extract during the final 20 minutes of the boil in order to increase the bitterness of my first hop addition.

I would suggest this approach on your next batch.

 

[drycreek]

Well I discussed this situation with my LHBS and it seems like their advice conflicts with some of the advice on these boards:

1. Mini-mash - they stand by their recipe and the method I followed. Put the grains in a grain bag and steep them for a certain amount of time, followed by a 15 minute sparging process. Then start the boil, add the extract, hops, etc. Not sure the exact timing without my notes handy, but that's the general idea. I don't know anything about mashing or all-grain brewing, so I'm not sure how the process I used compares to that.

2. Fermentation time - they were saying I should never ferment longer than 2 weeks, well at least not in a low gravity beer like this. This is where I deviated from their advice and did a 4-5 week fermentation time based on stuff I have read here suggesting longer fermentation is usually better. Apparently this can impart a nasty flavor because the beer sits on top of the trub and that's not a good thing. According to them, any additional time should be spent conditioning in the bottles, NOT in the fermenters.

So thoughts? Does anyone agree or disagree with either of these ideas?

 

[tcklord]

Drycreek, If you would like to do minimash on the stove that is fine follow the advice in deathbrewers thread here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

You can mash in a grain bag in a pot on the stove, just have to keep it around 155 deg F for around an hour. Then sparge in another pot with 170 deg water or heat water in another pot and pour over the bag. What they said about fermentation time has been disproved on this forum many many times. People often leave a beer in primary for 3-4 weeks some have even left it there for months without any off flavors from autolysis.

 

[bce22]

Well I discussed this situation with my LHBS and it seems like their advice conflicts with some of the advice on these boards:

1. Mini-mash - they stand by their recipe and the method I followed. Put the grains in a grain bag and steep them for a certain amount of time, followed by a 15 minute sparging process. Then start the boil, add the extract, hops, etc. Not sure the exact timing without my notes handy, but that's the general idea. I don't know anything about mashing or all-grain brewing, so I'm not sure how the process I used compares to that.

2. Fermentation time - they were saying I should never ferment longer than 2 weeks, well at least not in a low gravity beer like this. This is where I deviated from their advice and did a 4-5 week fermentation time based on stuff I have read here suggesting longer fermentation is usually better. Apparently this can impart a nasty flavor because the beer sits on top of the trub and that's not a good thing. According to them, any additional time should be spent conditioning in the bottles, NOT in the fermenters.

So thoughts? Does anyone agree or disagree with either of these ideas?

1. Mini-Mash or Partial Mash - Its not that different than steeping with a couple of MAJOR additions: Time and Temperature. Your not just extracting flavor and color when you do a partial mash. Your extracting fermentable sugars as well. To do this you need to soak the grains for 45-60 minutes at a steady temp. Usually in the mid to low 150's and HOLD that temp for the whole time. After the 45 - 60 minutes you "rinse" the grains in the bag by placing them in a separate pot of water at 168-170F and letting them soak for 10 minutes or so. IF you didn't hold your temp steady and IF you didn't let the grains soak long enough to get conversion, you didn't get the benefit from them.

There are many ways to do Partial Mashes on your stovetop and people's brew techniques are different, however everyone will soak the grains at a specific temp for an extended period of time and most rinse the grains as well.

2. Primary vs Secondary Vessels and time: Many many people have different ways to go about this, but many many experienced brewers will tell you that leaving a brew on the yeast (in the primary) for 3-4 weeks is best. This will allow the yeast to clean up after themselves and allow for a better end product. Your brewstore is acting paranoid, its better to leave it longer on the yeast cake. The chance of the yeast dying after only 1 month or pretty much non-existent and the odds of a better beer are much higher. I like those odds!!!

Many brewers transfer to a brightening/clearing tank (secondary) if they are going to add stuff to the beer vis a vis fruit, vanilla beans, etc.

 

[JoeJones]

I don't mean to hijack the post, just wondering if Suthrncomfrt1884 would mind elaborating on the extract "twang". I think I might be getting this - it's kind of a sour and too sweet flavor and there is a kind of sharp sourish smell to the brew as well. I got this on my first and now my second brew as well.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I don't mean to hijack the post, just wondering if Suthrncomfrt1884 would mind elaborating on the extract "twang". I think I might be getting this - it's kind of a sour and too sweet flavor and there is a kind of sharp sourish smell to the brew as well. I got this on my first and now my second brew as well.

If you search "extract twang", it will bring up a bunch of threads about the topic. As said in those threads, it's a hard flavor to describe and most are only seeing it with liquid extract.

Sour and too sweet sounds like a possible infection to me, but I don't want to say that without hearing more about the brewing process you used. I've found that if you're seeing consistant off-flavors in your beers and you have a good brewing technique, it's more often than not the water.

When I first started brewing, I used hot tap water to cut down on boil times. All of my beers had an odd taste. They weren't bad, just odd. Once I started using cold water, the taste went away.