Possible problem with my starter?

[kenmcchord]

I'll start of by saying I've been brewing starters for years, since maybe 2013. I did take a few years away from brewing when we made our move from NJ to FL, but I am back and I'm now preparing for a kolsch brew sometime this week.

I brewed up a starter with 1600ml water and 170 grams dme (light dme from Munton) which should be about 1.036 OG. I am using WLP029 German ale/Kolsch yeast from White Labs, it was purchased less than a month ago from my local HBS. Solid handling of the yeast after purchase (ice pack on the drive home, refrigerator until the day of the starter, starsan for sanitation). I cooled the wort to 68° then pitched and put it up on the stir plate. It's been just shy of 24 hours, the temp of the starter is roughly 80° now but it sure doesn't seem to be any activity other than the stir bar spinning. Anyone ever work with the WLP029, is this what you would expect for activity in a starter? I have to say I've only worked with ale and saison yeasts before, and I've always seen some sort of krausen or foamy activity, this just looks like there's nothing there. I was planning to brew Thursday morning but if this doesn't ferment up and grow some yeast I might have to push it and get another yeast package. FYI, the date on the yeast was sometime in December, which I believe is the expiration date or something like that.

Thoughts?

 

[day_trippr]

Sure looks like that starter never started, and that wort sure looks darker than any starter I've ever done.
After 24 hours it should look like a flask filled with milk...

Gotta wonder if that pack was totally dead inside...

 

[kenmcchord]

Was thinking the same thing, and yeah I don't know why my wort seems so dark. Again it's just 1600ml water and 170grams light dme. I'm boiling the water, adding in the dme slowly and stirring to keep from boil overs and/or scorching. Roughly 10 minutes in the boil, chill as quickly as possible in a water and ice bath (in the sink). It was surprisingly dark, and so was the wort for a saison I brewed a few weeks ago but that one took off nicely.

Yeast package was probably dead. Going to let it spin for another day then take a gravity reading. Thanks for the reply

 

[tracer bullet]

Totally agreed. Looks like nothing at all is happening. Time for another yeast purchase.

You might consider taking phone pics and bringing them to the LHBS. even if they don't give you a free replacement they may want to know that there's a potential issue w/ their supply.

If you go there, also consider a couple pouches of S-04 or S-05 dry yeast as a backup plan. I keep some in my frig at all times just in case.

 

[kenmcchord]

Totally agreed. Looks like nothing at all is happening. Time for another yeast purchase.

You might consider taking phone pics and bringing them to the LHBS. even if they don't give you a free replacement they may want to know that there's a potential issue w/ their supply.

If you go there, also consider a couple pouches of S-04 or S-05 dry yeast as a backup plan. I keep some in my frig at all times just in case.

Funny you mention that, I just got off the phone with the LHBS (Hearts Homebrew Supply in Orlando, good people) and I even started the conversation saying that I wasn't looking to complain, just simply asking if they had heard of getting a dead pack before. He immediately insisted that they replace it, even when I repeated I would pay for it he just simply said they would replace it.

Good tip, been reading about dry yeast and I might even try to find a dry yeast for this kolsch I'm brewing. Thanks for the reply!

 

[IslandLizard]

IME, 24 hours is a bit too soon to tell, especially with older, not so vital yeast.

I've seen dark starters like that here when using older yeast, either from the fridge or "freshly bought" at my LHBS. As long as it's alive, it may take a few days (2-7) on the stir plate to see a color change. I usually allow another 2-3 days after that to get it thick and creamy. Depending on her progress, maybe you can brew Sunday?

With a Best by date in December, that yeast is about 5 months old. About 30-50% viability if not mishandled.

You could pitch your new pack right into that ongoing starter. Not that I expect it to be any healthier if it has the same date on it, but you'll then have 2x the cells.

 

[tracer bullet]

As long as it's alive, it may take a few days (2-7) on the stir plate to see a color change. I usually allow another 2-3 days after that to get it thick and creamy.

It's always interesting how folks have different experiences. I spent decades just pitching yeast directly but a couple years now / couple dozen batches using starters. Haven't had this happen ever (this lack of activity).

But it's a good point that they aren't necessarily dead, just low viability and may indeed really get going in a few more days.

 

[kenmcchord]

IME, 24 hours is a bit too soon to tell, especially with older, not so vital yeast.

I've seen dark starters like that here when using older yeast, either from the fridge or "freshly bought" at my LHBS. As long as it's alive, it may take a few days (2-7) on the stir plate to see a color change. I usually allow another 2-3 days after that to get it thick and creamy. Depending on her progress, maybe you can brew Sunday?

With a Best by date in December, that yeast is about 5 months old. About 30-50% viability if not mishandled.

You could pitch your new pack right into that ongoing starter. Not that I expect it to be any healthier if it has the same date on it, but you'll then have 2x the cells.

Yeah, any day can be brew day, I’m just trying to get the batches rolling out on an every other week schedule for a few months until I get some beer kegged up. I can brew most any day.

Glad you posted this, I will wait a few days to see how this goes. And while I’m waiting I’ll make a shopping list for the next batch, and get that replacement yeast while I’m at it. Thanks again for the reply!

 

[IslandLizard]

It's always interesting how folks have different experiences. I spent decades just pitching yeast directly but a couple years now / couple dozen batches using starters. Haven't had this happen ever (this lack of activity).

Just be glad you outgrew the "dark ages" of pitching packs of liquid yeast blindly.

Last year I made a starter from a pack of WLP036 (Dusseldorf Alt), "fresh" from my LHBS with another 3 months "to go," that looked like that. It didn't do much for 3-4 days before I saw a decent color change, and it took another 2-3 days to get thick and creamy.

I usually make 1.6 (or 1.5) liter starters, about the max volume when using 2 liter flasks or 1/2 gallon pickle jars on an orbital lab shaker.
I simply love those shakers.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, any day can be brew day, I’m just trying to get the batches rolling out on an every other week schedule for a few months until I get some beer kegged up. I can brew most any day.

Glad you posted this, I will wait a few days to see how this goes. And while I’m waiting I’ll make a shopping list for the next batch, and get that replacement yeast while I’m at it. Thanks again for the reply!

So good to have that kind of brewday freedom, huh?

That's the way I brew too, it starts with the yeast, literally. I got to starter jars crashed in the fridge, they were ready to go... They are 2 month old now, so they'll get a vitality starter on brewday, hopefully this week.

Depending how far your LHBS is, I'd get that extra pack rather sooner than later, to add it to the flask.

Possible alternatives:
K97 is a dry Kolsch yeast, but I know nothing about it.
WLP003 (or WY 2575PC)
WY2565

 

[kenmcchord]

So good to have that kind of brewday freedom, huh?

That's the way I brew too, it starts with the yeast, literally. I got to starter jars crashed in the fridge, they were ready to go... They are 2 month old now, so they'll get a vitality starter on brewday, hopefully this week.

I never forget how luck we are, and thankfully my DW feels the same way.

Seems that I've somehow learned this time around how it's all about yeast prep when it comes to setting a brew date. I am trying to schedule brew dates in our family calendar, then at the beginning of the week I count back when I need to have the starter going. Last brew was an imperial saison that I did my first stepped up starter, beginning with a 1600ml starter then a few days later decanting into a 4L starter. That beer practically blew the blow off tube off the fermenter, quite a vigorous first few days of fermentation.

 

[deuc224]

Every starter ive ever done tok 1 day to finish, until it didnt. One needed about 2.5 days but still made a beer in 3 days. Best advice is to leave it be for a while and see what happens.

 

[kenmcchord]

So I took many of your advices and left it to sit on the stir plate; it took about 2 1/2 days but it did take off and we have live yeast! I'm on hold for the brew for other reasons but I think I am going to do another starter, this time just 3L starter in my larger flask and shoot for a Sunday or Monday brew. Hard to know for sure but I think I might also be out of DME so I'll be waiting on amazon before anything.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is it still getting lighter? If so, let it go another day (or 2). It's hard to judge from your picture, From what I see it's not quite there yet. Ideally it should be thick and creamy when it's done.

Sorry for the unexpected delay, much depends on when you're brewing.
Are you planning to cold crash this first before making another starter? That would be best. But how much to use depends on how much yeast there is after crashing. You may not want to use all of it in a next step if there's a lot already.

Instead, you could do a vitality starter on brew day.

I definitely would not add fresh wort to this starter, after transferring to a larger flask.

 

[kenmcchord]

Is it still getting lighter? If so, let it go another day (or 2). It's hard to judge from your picture, From what I see it's not quite there yet. Ideally it should be thick and creamy when it's done.

Sorry for the unexpected delay, much depends on when you're brewing.
Are you planning to cold crash this first before making another starter? That would be best. But how much to use depends on how much yeast there is after crashing. You may not want to use all of it in a next step if there's a lot already.

Instead, you could do a vitality starter on brew day.

I definitely would not add fresh wort to this starter, after transferring to a larger flask.

Sorry, it's been a long day (helping my Mom at her ALF, lots of driving for that). I should have been more descriptive.

I began the starter on Sunday around noontime, then my original post came Monday...about 24 hours later. The activity showed up Monday evening, and by last night (late) it was pretty much done. I pulled the starter and cold crashed it in my fridge around midnight last night. Seems like there's a nice yeast layer on the bottom, not as big as other starters I've done, but not nothing. So I'm planning two options,

1. Brew a new starter of 1600ml, decant the old starter and pitch the yeast.
2. Brew a new starter of 3L, decant and pitch the yeast.

I don't think I can go wrong with the 3L, the yeast cake seems large enough that a 3L ought to get some good growth and get them nice and active. Once I do the second starter I will do the normal routine... cold crash, decant and pitch the yeast into the wort on brew day, with a little of the brewed wort to swirl into the flask to help clear it out.

What do you think?

 

[IslandLizard]

To me it looks you've got enough yeast for a direct pitch for a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch!

1. Brew a new starter of 1600ml, decant the old starter and pitch the yeast.
2. Brew a new starter of 3L, decant and pitch the yeast.

1. From the substitution pack?

2. You mean as a 2nd step from this one? You've got too many cells already to go from 2 to 3 liters, it's not worth your time, effort, and DME. IOW, inoculation rate would be way too high for that to be productive (low growth).

But instead you could even make a new starter with some of it (estimate cell count by slurry volume) and probably save out enough for another batch. That 2nd step up will go faster as she's very vital right now.

 

[kenmcchord]

Okay, thanks! I'm going to just brew the batch of Kolsch on Friday then. Really that's all I was trying to do to begin with, I've got a lot of other projects going right now and I'm just trying to get batches into the fermenters when I've got a spare moment. Plus the next few batches won't be a kolsch, I'm trying to mix it up a bit.

Thanks for the advise!

 

[deuc224]

Yeah that starter should look hella lighter. Ive never had a starter have trouble like that. Nothing wrong with getting another pack of yeast and growing it .

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah that starter should look hella lighter. Ive never had a starter have trouble like that.

It's due to old, tired, or mishandled yeast. I've been there often enough to know it will come around given enough time. I've had first round starters run for 7-10 days to get to look like these. That look arguably should become our de facto standard for healthy yeast starters.
Lighting plays a significant role in appearance too, but you can't deny the opaque creamy thickness helps that a lot:

View attachment 706818

 

[kenmcchord]

I'm figuring it's much like @IslandLizard said before, back in the dark ages we would just be pitching whatever we got from our LHBS and suffered the consequences of a slow or stuck fermentation. With the starter I was able to take tired, poor viability yeast and grew them into contenders! Hopefully they'll be able to eat right through the kolsch I'm brewing tomorrow morning!

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm figuring it's much like @IslandLizard said before, back in the dark ages we would just be pitching whatever we got from our LHBS and suffered the consequences of a slow or stuck fermentation. With the starter I was able to take tired, poor viability yeast and grew them into contenders! Hopefully they'll be able to eat right through the kolsch I'm brewing tomorrow morning!

When you're decanting the supernatant, pour some into a hydrometer jar. I'm curious (and so should you) in the starter's FG. If it's low, say 1.007 or under, it was definitely done. There was no glucose left to allow for further growth.

What temp are you fermenting that Kolsch at?
Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest, Kölsches are unforgivingly honest in their flavor/aroma profile.

 

[kenmcchord]

When you're decanting the supernatant, pour some into a hydrometer jar. I'm curious (and so should you) in the starter's FG. If it's low, say 1.007 or under, it was definitely done. There was no glucose left to allow for further growth.

What temp are you fermenting that Kolsch at?
Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest, Kölsches are unforgivingly honest in their flavor/aroma profile.

Planning a 65° fermentation, the White Labs site says that's the low end of that yeast strain. Too high? I'm still a novice and never brewed a kolsch before. And yeah, I screwed up a batch recently by packaging too soon, so this will have sufficient time to clear up!

Good idea on checking the gravity of the starter, I'll do that and report back.

 

[IslandLizard]

Planning a 65° fermentation, the White Labs site says that's the low end of that yeast strain. Too high? I'm still a novice and never brewed a kolsch before. And yeah, I screwed up a batch recently by packaging too soon, so this will have sufficient time to clear up!

Good idea on checking the gravity of the starter, I'll do that and report back.

65F is the minimum White labs recommends . They explicitly mention that it doesn't ferment well under 62F after peak fermentation is over, which may result in a stalled or slow finishing batch. So, unless you can watch it like a hawk I'd stay at 65F. Then bump to 70F when things have slowed down, but before it's finished, for a diacetyl rest.

White labs also mentions that successive brews using harvested yeast are more difficult to clear. In that light, pitching fresh each time could be advantageous, hence my suggestions to propagate some of this batch further if you want to brew another within foreseeable time.
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp029-german-ale-k-lsch-yeast

 

[kenmcchord]

65F is the minimum White labs recommends . They explicitly mention that it doesn't ferment well under 62F after peak fermentation is over, which may result in a stalled or slow finishing batch. So, unless you can watch it like a hawk I'd stay at 65F. Then bump to 70F when things have slowed down, but before it's finished, for a diacetyl rest.

White labs also mentions that successive brews using harvested yeast are more difficult to clear. In that light, pitching fresh each time could be advantageous, hence my suggestions to propagate some of this batch further if you want to brew another within foreseeable time.
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp029-german-ale-k-lsch-yeast

Quick question, does the bumping up the temp after fermentation has slowed down applicable to most all types of brews? Like I said I pulled a SMaSH pale/IPA a bit early (had an issue that forced me to terminate the fermentation after 10 days) which has as good bit of diacetyl and nothing I want to taste again! Currently I have an imperial pumpkin saison that's on day 11 and things have slowed down considerably. Would you recommend raising that temp up as well? (currently sitting at 66°, +- 1°)

Thanks again for all your advice, it's fun getting back into this but clearly I still have a lot to learn.

 

[VikeMan]

Quick question, does the bumping up the temp after fermentation has slowed down applicable to most all types of brews?

IMO, it can be a useful technique with pretty much any yeast strain. I say "pretty much" any because I certainly haven't used them all.

But usually it's just a way of expediting attenuation of the last few gravity points and/or diacetyl production/cleanup, rather than preventing yeast going prematurely dormant (which in my experience isn't really very common).

ETA: I assumed you switched gears into talking about main batches (not just starters), i.e. "all types of brews."

 

[kenmcchord]

IMO, it can be a useful technique with pretty much any yeast strain. I say "pretty much" any because I certainly haven't used them all.

But usually it's just a way of expediting attenuation of the last few gravity points and/or diacetyl production/cleanup, rather than preventing yeast going prematurely dormant (which in my experience isn't really very common).

ETA: I assumed you switched gears into talking about main batches (not just starters), i.e. "all types of brews."

Yep, that is a correct assumption, getting ready to up the temp in my saison fermenter. Thanks!

 

[kenmcchord]

When you're decanting the supernatant, pour some into a hydrometer jar. I'm curious (and so should you) in the starter's FG. If it's low, say 1.007 or under, it was definitely done. There was no glucose left to allow for further growth.

What temp are you fermenting that Kolsch at?
Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest, Kölsches are unforgivingly honest in their flavor/aroma profile.

Checked the supernatant, it was 1.007, apparently the starter did its job. Got the kolsch in the fermenter at 65°, I'll look for activity in the next day.