Porter tastes like barleywine now?

[David_Trucks]

I drank the last beer from my first batch today - it was a robust porter, brewed about a year ago. It lost some carbonation, which I guess was expected, and I think I tasted oxidation for the first time (it wasn't too strong, but it was there).

But, what I didn't expect is that it tasted very thick and "chewy", like a barleywine. Kind of like the barleywine I made about 6 months ago, actually. But, it was definitely the porter that I drank tonight - I know this for sure. They did have similar ingredients - base malt, roasted malts and some dark extract, but the porter did not use to taste this way. It used to taste like a porter and, in fact, I had one just a few weeks ago and it tasted like a porter.

Any reason why the porter picked up barleywine characteristics? Are these just "off" flavors, only to me they taste good? I'm not complaining by the way, I'm a barleywine fan and this was a pleasant surprise.

 

[RM-MN]

If your porter tasted like your barleywine, its because you didn't let your barleywine age long enough. Give your barleywine 2 years and it will taste way different too. I keep telling people to let their darker and more alcoholic beers have time to mature but most people are too impatient to let that happen. Your porter didn't "used to taste like a porter", it tasted like the commercial breweries would like us to think a porter should taste so they can get a faster turnaround on their beers. If they let their porters sit and age, they'd taste more like what you are now experiencing.

 

[David_Trucks]

Ahh, I see. That's something I hadn't thought of before. The good news is I have more of the barleywines left - I had one after over 6 months of aging and another a little while later because it was so good I had to show it off. The plan is to have one every 6 months or so to see the progression.

 

[Yooper]

If your porter picked up 'sweeter', sherry-like notes, almost like brandy in flavor (that to me is what is 'barleywine-like'), the cause of that is oxidation. Slight oxidation will do that will time, and every aged barleywine I've had has had those notes.

I've had an overaged robust porter at a BJCP tasting exam, and it was still pretty good tasting in many ways, but it scored poorly by all due to the aged quality and the hint of oxidation.

I'm not a fan of overaged beers. Some beers do age quite well, but some don't.

 

[Homercidal]

I agree with Yooper on this. I've had several aged beers that were poorly packaged and had obvious oxidation flavors. In a beer with darker malts, they tend to have a sherry flavor.

It's not that awful to me, but it is not enjoyable when you expect a fresher, brighter flavor and you get a muted, almost wine-like flavor coming in. Had it happen to an Old Ale I brewed about 2 years ago.

 

[David_Trucks]

Thanks for the feedback Yoop and Homercidal. I hope it's not oxidation, since that's what my Barleywine tasted like too, but I fear you may be right. It's still tasty to me - sherry-like I'm not so sure. It's hard to describe, but it seemed "thicker" and definitely sweeter.

If it is oxidation, should I drink the barleywines asap or is it still okay to let them ride? Again, I do like the flavor, or at least did a month or so ago.

 

[Homercidal]

A LOT of people enjoy those flavors with a thick, rich barleywine and other similar beers. Those beers are almost associated with it due to the aging they get. And you can't prevent it, really. The oxidation flavors come not just from the air, but when certain compounds in the ingredients start to break down.

I say enjoy it as often as you want. No reason to hurry, and no reason to cellar.

I've got a few small bottles of my last Barleywine in the closet. I really should chill one and see what it's like. I think it had 2007 or 2008 on the box. They are a bit past their prime, but they make interesting sippers. The alcohol heat is pretty much gone, though. Amazing how that sensation can disappear while the actual alcohol is still in there.

 

[David_Trucks]

A LOT of people enjoy those flavors with a thick, rich barleywine and other similar beers. Those beers are almost associated with it due to the aging they get. And you can't prevent it, really. The oxidation flavors come not just from the air, but when certain compounds in the ingredients start to break down.

I say enjoy it as often as you want. No reason to hurry, and no reason to cellar.

I've got a few small bottles of my last Barleywine in the closet. I really should chill one and see what it's like. I think it had 2007 or 2008 on the box. They are a bit past their prime, but they make interesting sippers. The alcohol heat is pretty much gone, though. Amazing how that sensation can disappear while the actual alcohol is still in there.

Thanks bud, that all makes sense. It also makes me thirsty for a beer... I'll try another one before too long and post the results.

 

[RM-MN]

I question that this is oxidation in the traditional sense. If it is, oxidizing must happen to nearly every beer we make since when I make my beers, the only time the beer is exposed to air is when I rack it to the bottling bucket. It also takes differing amount of time to appear with a red ale getting this flavor change within a month, a porter in 3 to 4 months and a stout taking 6 to 10 months. If it then is oxidation, why doesn't a stout get oxidized in the same amount of time as a wheat beer or a red ale?

My second thought is that I really like oxidized beer then because I like my beers to have apparent body and some real flavors instead of the thin, flavorless beer that the porters are when first bottled.

 

[RM-MN]

I question that this is oxidation in the traditional sense. If it is, oxidizing must happen to nearly every beer we make since when I make my beers, the only time the beer is exposed to air is when I rack it to the bottling bucket. It also takes differing amount of time to appear with a red ale getting this flavor change within a month, a porter in 3 to 4 months and a stout taking 6 to 10 months. If it then is oxidation, why doesn't a stout get oxidized in the same amount of time as a wheat beer or a red ale?

My second thought is that I really like oxidized beer then because I like my beers to have apparent body and some real flavors instead of the thin, flavorless beer that the porters are when first bottled.

 

[David_Trucks]

I question that this is oxidation in the traditional sense. If it is, oxidizing must happen to nearly every beer we make since when I make my beers, the only time the beer is exposed to air is when I rack it to the bottling bucket. It also takes differing amount of time to appear with a red ale getting this flavor change within a month, a porter in 3 to 4 months and a stout taking 6 to 10 months. If it then is oxidation, why doesn't a stout get oxidized in the same amount of time as a wheat beer or a red ale?



My second thought is that I really like oxidized beer then because I like my beers to have apparent body and some real flavors instead of the thin, flavorless beer that the porters are when first bottled.

See, these are very good points too. I'm not too worried because I like the flavors that are showing up, both before and after the oxidation or whatever it is. But it is very interesting that my Porter flavor changed dramatically after only a month or so since the last one I had.

 

[Homercidal]

I can't remember the article I read, it may have been Charlie Bamforth, but it basically said that Aging will happen over time with or with oxygen. It's a natural breakdown of certain compounds in the beer. IIRC it was proteins So maybe not oxidation in the traditional sense. May have something to do with the roasted grains used in darker beers.

Some beers may react to oxygen more than others, due to having more or less of certain compounds. Less things that stabilize beer, and more reative compounds will oxidize or age faster than beers with more stabilizing and less reactive compounds.

I'll have to dig that article up again. It was an eye opener and probably nothing a homebrewer needs to worry about for any beer that's consumed in a couple of months, but from what I gathered, it said no matter what you do, all beers will "age' even if there is no oxygen present.

 

[David_Trucks]

I can't remember the article I read, it may have been Charlie Bamforth, but it basically said that Aging will happen over time with or with oxygen. It's a natural breakdown of certain compounds in the beer. IIRC it was proteins So maybe not oxidation in the traditional sense. May have something to do with the roasted grains used in darker beers.

Some beers may react to oxygen more than others, due to having more or less of certain compounds. Less things that stabilize beer, and more reative compounds will oxidize or age faster than beers with more stabilizing and less reactive compounds.

I'll have to dig that article up again. It was an eye opener and probably nothing a homebrewer needs to worry about for any beer that's consumed in a couple of months, but from what I gathered, it said no matter what you do, all beers will "age' even if there is no oxygen present.

I'd love to read up on this; I'm always looking to learn more. Please post it if you find it.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, the same is true of fine wines. Actually, it's referred to as 'micro-oxidation' by many winemakers since the idea is that there is some tiny bit of oxygen in the headspace of wine bottles and beer bottles, regardless of the type of closure (caps vs corks vs synthetic corks).

Aging changes much of the flavor and aroma of the beer. Some of it is for the better (think, Belgian tripels and English barleywines). Some not- say, an aged IPA.

It's more than oxygen, although that is part of it. There are a reason that cellars are dark and temperature controlled, and that is to reduce the effects of aging while allowing a certain bit of it to happen (that is, not fridge temps).

 

[Homercidal]

I'd love to read up on this; I'm always looking to learn more. Please post it if you find it.

We tend to clump all aging changes into a category of "oxidation", and indeed I believe oxidation in the homebrew environment can be a problem for most people, when compared to the processes employed by a large beer company who has done enormous research into the subject and who has plenty of cash to spend to keep their beer as fresh as possible in the retail chain.

So while some oxidation is inevitable, a lot of what we as amateurs call "oxidation" is more likely to be caused by compound changes not related to oxygen, but other reactants that are naturally part of the beer.

For instance I've read that lighter beers tend to have a papery or cardboard flavor to note oxidation, while darker beers tend to develop sherry, sweet flavors. The difference between them being the different ingredients: dark malts added to the dark beers.

So not matter the method employed, and no matter how careful you are, aging in a beer is going to happen. What changes happen have a lot to do with ingredients, and what changes PLUS how fast, has to do with the temperature the beer is aged at. It's universally known that temperature plays a huge role in the chemical reactions within, well, pretty much everything!

Here is one source I remember reading previously. Took me a few minutes to find it.

https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/

There was another source which did a better job of describing the expected flavors between beers made with different ingredients, but it was not a scientific journal, just some smart dude's blog page.

 

[David_Trucks]

We tend to clump all aging changes into a category of "oxidation", and indeed I believe oxidation in the homebrew environment can be a problem for most people, when compared to the processes employed by a large beer company who has done enormous research into the subject and who has plenty of cash to spend to keep their beer as fresh as possible in the retail chain.



So while some oxidation is inevitable, a lot of what we as amateurs call "oxidation" is more likely to be caused by compound changes not related to oxygen, but other reactants that are naturally part of the beer.



For instance I've read that lighter beers tend to have a papery or cardboard flavor to note oxidation, while darker beers tend to develop sherry, sweet flavors. The difference between them being the different ingredients: dark malts added to the dark beers.



So not matter the method employed, and no matter how careful you are, aging in a beer is going to happen. What changes happen have a lot to do with ingredients, and what changes PLUS how fast, has to do with the temperature the beer is aged at. It's universally known that temperature plays a huge role in the chemical reactions within, well, pretty much everything!



Here is one source I remember reading previously. Took me a few minutes to find it.



https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/



There was another source which did a better job of describing the expected flavors between beers made with different ingredients, but it was not a scientific journal, just some smart dude's blog page.

Thanks!