Pliny the Elder clones- differences in IBU

[troyp42]

Hi brewers, I was looking at brewing a Pliny the Elder clone but have noticed quite a difference in the hops and IBUs on my recipe in Beersmith compared to the original.

I entered the recipe below into beersmith and my IBUs come out at 179 IBUs compared to only 90-95 IBUs in the actual recipe.

 

[Sammy86]

Yes, there is/will be a difference due to the AA% of the hops. It is difficult to pin down exactly what they are using up at RR because when they give the recipe they are just telling you the type of hop not the percentage.

Unfortunately, you're going to have to play with it a hit and see where you land. Personally, I would stick with the old 6% 60 IBU/ 7% 70 IBU trend but that is completely up to you!

 

[Brooothru]

Hi brewers, I was looking at brewing a Pliny the Elder clone but have noticed quite a difference in the hops and IBUs on my recipe in Beersmith compared to the original.

I entered the recipe below into beersmith and my IBUs come out at 179 IBUs compared to only 90-95 IBUs in the actual recipe.

View attachment 745187

The 179+ value from BeerSmith is giving you a theoretical bitterness since there is a limiting value to the actual bitterness that can be achieved from boiling and steeping in a given volume of wort. That practical limit is somewhere a little 'north' of 105 IBUs I believe. Vinnie's recipe from Russian River shows IBUs: 90-95 (actual/not calculated). This is the measured value range of bitterness you could expect to achieve using the recipe amounts, volumes, and Alpha/Alpha percentages of the hops listed in the recipe. Maybe someone with greater understanding of the science behind all this can explain in more concise and accurate terms, but suffice it to say that any calculated IBU level above the low 100s is pretty meaningless. That doesn't mean a calculated IBU of 300 wouldn't "taste" different than a measured one of say 105 IBUs. In fact it would probably be undrinkable.

As a side note, the above recipe is a very close example of what PtE was maybe 5 years ago. Like all craft beer makers, Vinnie has to keep up with popular trends to stay in business. The Pliny you get today is not the Pliny you got 5 years ago. That's just the way the industry rolls. But the above recipe is a damn fine beer, and it's the one I still brew. I've got a single "real" PtE in my beer fridge, now a mere faded example of its former self. It's the last one from a case I bought at the brewery in Santa Rosa on a road trip in 2017. I never had the courage to drink the last one, and now it would only be a waste of a once great beer. But if you're looking to save the time and effort of collecting all the pieces to brew your own, More Beer has a kit that keeps very close fidelity to the original as referenced in the above recipe. I've done the MoreBeer kit as well and the ingredients were all fresh and well laid out.

Did I mention that I really like Pliney the Elder?

 

[eric19312]

looking at Beersmith cloud I see others have put same recipe in with similar results so I don't think it is beersmith user error. I agree with @Hoppy2bmerry that the issue is difference between calculated IBU and measured IBU. I think issue with calculated vs actual is that the calculations were developed using beers with, by current standards, relatively low hopping rates. They don't apply well to high amounts of high AA hops. Really nice that Vinnie added note that the IBU was measured, not calculated.

Don't make the mistake of trying to hit Vinnie's measured IBU with calculated IBU contributions to get closer to Pliny. Say for example cutting all the hop additions in the above recipe in half to get a calculated 90 IBU. You will get a beer, it may be a good beer, but it won't be a good Pliny clone.

 

[Yooper]

The 179+ value from BeerSmith is giving you a theoretical bitterness since there is a limiting value to the actual bitterness that can be achieved from boiling and steeping in a given volume of wort. That practical limit is somewhere a little 'north' of 105 IBUs I believe. Vinnie's recipe from Russian River shows IBUs: 90-95 (actual/not calculated). This is the measured value range of bitterness you could expect to achieve using the recipe amounts, volumes, and Alpha/Alpha percentages of the hops listed in the recipe. Maybe someone with greater understanding of the science behind all this can explain in more concise and accurate terms, but suffice it to say that any calculated IBU level above the low 100s is pretty meaningless.

This. There is a point, said to be between 80 and 100 IBUS in most reading I've done, where the wort is saturated and hops oils can no longer isomerized. So no matter how many hops are added past that point, the IBUs will not increase. The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of International Bitterness Units (IBUs)

For a real rabbit hole experience on even IF you have a high level of IBUs in the wort, why it changes during fermentation and the type of isomerization that happens: https://www.mbaa.com/membership/awards/Documents/WinningPaper_TQ-55-3-1205-01.pdf

 

[Brooothru]

This. There is a point, said to be between 80 and 100 IBUS in most reading I've done, where the wort is saturated and hops oils can no longer isomerized. So no matter how many hops are added past that point, the IBUs will not increase. The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of International Bitterness Units (IBUs)

For a real rabbit hole experience on even IF you have a high level of IBUs in the wort, why it changes during fermentation and the type of isomerization that happens: https://www.mbaa.com/membership/awards/Documents/WinningPaper_TQ-55-3-1205-01.pdf

Thanks, Yooper. I knew I'd read it 'somewhere'.

 

[troyp42]

The 179+ value from BeerSmith is giving you a theoretical bitterness since there is a limiting value to the actual bitterness that can be achieved from boiling and steeping in a given volume of wort. That practical limit is somewhere a little 'north' of 105 IBUs I believe. Vinnie's recipe from Russian River shows IBUs: 90-95 (actual/not calculated). This is the measured value range of bitterness you could expect to achieve using the recipe amounts, volumes, and Alpha/Alpha percentages of the hops listed in the recipe. Maybe someone with greater understanding of the science behind all this can explain in more concise and accurate terms, but suffice it to say that any calculated IBU level above the low 100s is pretty meaningless. That doesn't mean a calculated IBU of 300 wouldn't "taste" different than a measured one of say 105 IBUs. In fact it would probably be undrinkable.

As a side note, the above recipe is a very close example of what PtE was maybe 5 years ago. Like all craft beer makers, Vinnie has to keep up with popular trends to stay in business. The Pliny you get today is not the Pliny you got 5 years ago. That's just the way the industry rolls. But the above recipe is a damn fine beer, and it's the one I still brew. I've got a single "real" PtE in my beer fridge, now a mere faded example of its former self. It's the last one from a case I bought at the brewery in Santa Rosa on a road trip in 2017. I never had the courage to drink the last one, and now it would only be a waste of a once great beer. But if you're looking to save the time and effort of collecting all the pieces to brew your own, More Beer has a kit that keeps very close fidelity to the original as referenced in the above recipe. I've done the MoreBeer kit as well and the ingredients were all fresh and well laid out.

Did I mention that I really like Pliney the Elder?

Im in Aus and have never had the original PtE unfortunately. But good to know the recipe above is a good one to brew. Cheers mate.

Thanks for the advice and the links etc. Ill stick to the recipe above and see how it comes out. Looking forward to brewing this on my new Grainfather G40.

 

[hout17]

Can't argue with Yooper on this. Pretty much get the AAU from the recipe and adjust your hops to match that AAU.

I have not brewed this one but am very tempted.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

MBAA podcast #123: Tracking IBU Through the Brewing Process: The Quest for Consistency (link).

 

[hout17]

MBAA podcast #123: Tracking IBU Through the Brewing Process: The Quest for Consistency (link).

Getting page not found might want to check the link .

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Getting page not found might want to check the link .

Fix. Can you fix the link that you copied?

 

[hout17]

Fix. Can you fix the link that you copied?

Fixed.

 

[duncan.brown]

As a side note, the above recipe is a very close example of what PtE was maybe 5 years ago. Like all craft beer makers, Vinnie has to keep up with popular trends to stay in business. The Pliny you get today is not the Pliny you got 5 years ago. That's just the way the industry rolls. But the above recipe is a damn fine beer, and it's the one I still brew.

I also brew a slight variation on the old Pliny recipe as one of my go-to beers. I get the crazy IBUs in Beersmith (see below) for the reasons that @Brooothru says.

I think the Vinny home-brew recipe might even be a bit older than the five-year vintage that @Brooothru suggests. To get a bit closer to the current Pliny, I have dropped the amount of C40 and dropped the carapils. I use Golden Promise as my base malt, which makes for a fine beer. The color is almost spot on, maybe a shade darker than Pliny.

One of the evolutions of Pliny has been to go lighter in color and (I think) dryer in finish, which is why I bumped down the C40 and dropped the carapils. I might try a version that drops the C40 completely and uses 10% pilsner malt for the base and 90% Golden Promise to get it a shade even lighter. Newer recipes (e.g. Pliny the Elder 4.0 – Bertus Brewery although that's circa 2015) use hop extract. I've never had problems with vegetal flavors and I find cleaning T90s out of my Hop Stopper 2.0 easier than mucking around with extract. Golden Promise is great for this beer. I've probably diverged enough from Pliny at this point that it's not a clone, but it's a damn fine west-coast DIPA.

Don't forget the water! To get this beer to really sing, I need a whopping 8.2:1 sulphate to chloride ratio. I posted a shot of my water profile.

 

[3 Dawg Night]

I've got a single "real" PtE in my beer fridge, now a mere faded example of its former self. It's the last one from a case I bought at the brewery in Santa Rosa on a road trip in 2017. I never had the courage to drink the last one, and now it would only be a waste of a once great beer.

Did I mention that I really like Pliney the Elder?

Since you're not going to drink it in life, you should put in your will that you want your family to pour that bottle over your grave.

 

[troyp42]

I also brew a slight variation on the old Pliny recipe as one of my go-to beers. I get the crazy IBUs in Beersmith (see below) for the reasons that @Brooothru says.

I think the Vinny home-brew recipe might even be a bit older than the five-year vintage that @Brooothru suggests. To get a bit closer to the current Pliny, I have dropped the amount of C40 and dropped the carapils. I use Golden Promise as my base malt, which makes for a fine beer. The color is almost spot on, maybe a shade darker than Pliny.

One of the evolutions of Pliny has been to go lighter in color and (I think) dryer in finish, which is why I bumped down the C40 and dropped the carapils. I might try a version that drops the C40 completely and uses 10% pilsner malt for the base and 90% Golden Promise to get it a shade even lighter. Newer recipes (e.g. Pliny the Elder 4.0 – Bertus Brewery although that's circa 2015) use hop extract. I've never had problems with vegetal flavors and I find cleaning T90s out of my Hop Stopper 2.0 easier than mucking around with extract. Golden Promise is great for this beer. I've probably diverged enough from Pliny at this point that it's not a clone, but it's a damn fine west-coast DIPA.

Don't forget the water! To get this beer to really sing, I need a whopping 8.2:1 sulphate to chloride ratio. I posted a shot of my water profile.

View attachment 745308

View attachment 745309

Cheers mate thanks heaps for the recipe and for the water profile as I hadn't done mine yet so will use yours. Cheers again.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

MBAA podcast #123: Tracking IBU Through the Brewing Process: The Quest for Consistency (link).

There's also a Basic Brewing Radio podcast (Nov 1, 2018) and PDF with similar/related information.

Maybe the "Basic" in "Basic Brewing Radio" means fundamental, not beginner.

 

[Brooothru]

Since you're not going to drink it in life, you should put in your will that you want your family to pour that bottle over your grave.

Reminds me of the story of Hamish and Lindsay, two aging Scotsmen, inseparable friends since childhood. Seems that in their youth, Lindsay has acquired a very rare and very cherished bottle of Scotch Whisky. Hamish had repeatedly implored Lindsay over the many years to uncork the flask so that the two friends could share a dram in celebration of some shared event in their lives, but Lindsay, always the frugal Scot, demurred.

Finally one dark day, as Lindsay lay on his death bed awaiting the Grim Reaper, he called his lifelong friend to his side and asked of him one final favor.

"Hamish, my friend. After I've been dead and buried, I'd have you take my treasured 'dew' from the shelf and sprinkle it on me grave. Will ye' do that for me?"

"Of course," Hamish replied. "But would ye' object if I was to filter it through me kidneys first?"

 

[Beermeister32]

My Barney the Welder was spot on. Took me took me 5 batches of tweaking to dial it in..!

 

[Brooothru]

My Barney the Welder was spot on. Took me took me 5 batches of tweaking to dial it in..!View attachment 745372

That's about the coolest label ever! The beer looks pretty fine as well. Recipe share?

 

[3 Dawg Night]

My Barney the Welder was spot on. Took me took me 5 batches of tweaking to dial it in..!View attachment 745372

Do you have a label template you'd be willing to share? I've been working on one for mine, but it's not exactly right. Thanks!

 

[Beermeister32]

That's about the coolest label ever! The beer looks pretty fine as well. Recipe share?

Here you go:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/pliny-the-elder-clone.296940/page-24#post-9011944

 

[Beermeister32]

Do you have a label template you'd be willing to share? I've been working on one for mine, but it's not exactly right. Thanks!

Here you go... Make sure to use 500 ml Weihenstephaner bottles...

 

[troyp42]

I hope this turns out ok, and the hop additions were correct, but its been fermenting for 2 days and its still very very bitter. I whirlpooled for 10 mins at around 90C.
I ended up with 115 grams of hops at 90 mins which seems like a **** load. Beersmith had my IBUs at 179. Heres my hop additions for a 25 litre batch..

 

[duncan.brown]

If the beer is only two days old, it will taste extremely bitter. I remember with the first batch I made, I tasted the fast fermentation test and spat it out as it was so bitter. Don't worry, it will mellow with time.

 

[troyp42]

If the beer is only two days old, it will taste extremely bitter. I remember with the first batch I made, I tasted the fast fermentation test and spat it out as it was so bitter. Don't worry, it will mellow with time.

Well thats good to know. Other than that its going nicely. It was my first ferment on my new Grainfather G40.

 

[troyp42]

Do I really have to bother racking this to secondary? Ive never racked a beer to secondary in many years of brewing. I do have a conical with a dump valve. Should I just dump the yeast instead?

 

[Brooothru]

I stopped "doing secondaries" when I started fermenting in conicals with a bottom dump. The whole purpose is to get the wort/beer off settled solids, so why not just remove the solids instead?

By dumping vs. racking you avoid oxidation and possible infection. Just put a very small head pressure of CO2 on the wort/beer to compensate for the volume loss in the sealed conical.

 

[troyp42]

I stopped "doing secondaries" when I started fermenting in conicals with a bottom dump. The whole purpose is to get the wort/beer off settled solids, so why not just remove the solids instead?

By dumping vs. racking you avoid oxidation and possible infection. Just put a very small head pressure of CO2 on the wort/beer to compensate for the volume loss in the sealed conical.

Ive already added the 1st dry hops and didnt dump but will do that tonight then. Cheers

 

[Brooothru]

I stopped "doing secondaries" when I started fermenting in conicals with a bottom dump. The whole purpose is to get the wort/beer off settled solids, so why not just remove the solids instead?

By dumping vs. racking you avoid oxidation and possible infection. Just put a very small head pressure of CO2 on the wort/beer to compensate for the volume loss in the sealed conical.