Please revise

[Pugs13]

Hey guys,
I will be brewing on a 3BBL system and will using RO water since the city water where our small brewery is located is really not suitable for brewing. I am using Brun Water Spreadsheet, could use some advice.
Can you revise with water profile I have for our Dry Irish Stout and what things would you add or take out. Thanks

Calcium - 60
Magnesium - 5
Sodium - 7
Sulfate - 80
Chloride - 38
Bicarbonate - 63
Hardness - 173
Alkalinity - 52
RA - 6
SO4/CL Ratio - 2.08
Mash pH - 5.4

 

[LovesIPA]

What's the grain bill and what water profile did you select? Black bitter/balanced/malty?

I just go with what Bru'N Water says and keep messing with the salt amounts until most of the numbers are close to what you're shooting for.

 

[ajdelange]

What you have looks fine for Irish stout. I'd experiment with the sulfate level though. Small tweaks from batch to batch. Forget about what you have been told about ratios. Tweak for best tasting beer.

 

[Pugs13]

What you have looks fine for Irish stout. I'd experiment with the sulfate level though. Small tweaks from batch to batch. Forget about what you have been told about ratios. Tweak for best tasting beer.

Tweaking the sulfate, would you suggest tweaking it down for now a little first then building it up to taste?

 

[ajdelange]

That is what I usually recommend and I guess its safer. If reducing sulfate makes it a bit insipid then that's better, I would think, than if you raised it and it became harshly bitter. You can always try the add some to the glass experimentation.

 

[McCoy]

Slightly off-topic, what are the units on all those numbers? I'm curious about water treatment but want to know if I'd have to buy a new scale with more precision.

 

[Pugs13]

That is what I usually recommend and I guess its safer. If reducing sulfate makes it a bit insipid then that's better, I would think, than if you raised it and it became harshly bitter. You can always try the add some to the glass experimentation.

So does the amount of RA affect this at all...I mean I am kinda of at that point where if I hit my target pH then thats all that really matters. I still have to get a pH reading off our RO unit...I am assuming its going to be around 7 but need to test and go from there.

 

[ajdelange]

Slightly off-topic, what are the units on all those numbers? I'm curious about water treatment but want to know if I'd have to buy a new scale with more precision.

All those numbers will be in mg/L with the exception of the total hardness and alkalinity which are in 'ppm as calcium carbonate'.

If you are brewing 3 bbl batches the ability to weigh salts to 0.1 gram will is more than sufficiently precise.

 

[ajdelange]

So does the amount of RA affect this at all...

Not directly. RA, much overrated as a means of predicting mash pH IMO, has, through its effect on mash pH, an overall effect on flavor. Beers mashed at high pH tend to be lifeless and dull.

I mean I am kinda of at that point where if I hit my target pH then thats all that really matters.

Not really. Sulfate ion content, which does not effect pH (unless, of course, you obtain it from sulfuric acid) can have a big effect on the way hops bitterness is perceived. Chloride ion (same remark about pH but hydrochloric acid) sweetens beer and improves its mouthfeel. You have lots of adjustment leeway for both of these at a given pH level through the use of neutral salts.

I still have to get a pH reading off our RO unit...I am assuming its going to be around 7 but need to test and go from there.

More likely to be in the 5's or 6's but what is most important to understand is that it doesn't matter. The lower the mineral content of water the less important its pH becomes.

 

[mabrungard]

Dry stout brewing is a special case for dark beers. It does not require or need high alkalinity water for its brewing. AJ has long said that alkalinity is not a requirement for brewing a stout. I didn't believe him at first, but performed research on the subject. He is correct.

Those of you that are AHA members should consult the Zymurgy article in the Nov/Dec 2013 issue on Irish water. In that article, I point out that the water used by the major Irish dry stout brewers is relatively soft and has low alkalinity. The Guinness method of separately steeping their roast barley to create their dark extract (Guinness Flavor Extract), is apparently their way of creating the tart flavor in their stout and at the same time avoiding an overly low mash pH. The GFE is added to the main wort after mashing. A homebrewer can accomplish this by adding the roast barley at the end of the mashing period. This is a method popularized by Gordon Strong.

I do suggest that the OP's proposed sulfate level be reduced quite a bit. Something along the line of 20 to 30 ppm chloride and sulfate appears to be a typical Irish level. That is where I would start.

 

[mabrungard]

PS: the pH target for the kettle wort of a dry stout is lower than a typical beer. You still want to produce a typical mash pH of around 5.4, but the kettle wort pH will be several tenths lower due to the late addition of either the roast barley or its black liquor.

 

[Pugs13]

PS: the pH target for the kettle wort of a dry stout is lower than a typical beer. You still want to produce a typical mash pH of around 5.4, but the kettle wort pH will be several tenths lower due to the late addition of either the roast barley or its black liquor.

What if we mash in the roast barley during the start like most traditional brewing, will the kettle wort still be lower I am assuming? If so, what pH reading should I be looking for?

 

[Pugs13]

Also, if I am having trouble getting down to lets say a 5.4 or 5.3 pH for this stout, could I add a little Lactic Acid 88% to alter that? Would that act like an acid malt and maybe give this stout that twangness? IMO I don't get the whole associating Guinness with sourness...I think its a myth...but I do believe your post about late addition roasted barley enhancing that flavor...Good on ya!

 

[mabrungard]

Since a dry stout should have a kettle pH in the 5 to 5.2 range, mashing at that low a pH will adversely affect the beer quality. If you are starting with a more alkaline water and including the roast barley in the main mash produces a desirable mash pH of around 5.4, then adding a dose of lactic acid in the kettle to reduce the wort pH to that lower range might work well. Be aware that the character of the roast barley liquor produced at the higher pH will be different than if its steeped separately in low alkalinity water.

By the way, I do believe that it is a myth that Guinness 'sours' their GFE with a lactic ferment. With their low alkalinity water supply, steeping the roast barley is going to produce their GFE with a pH in the mid to upper 4 range. That is tart to me.

 

[ajdelange]

Mashing in with the barley will lower mash and thus kettle pH. Whether lowering kettle pH still further is a good idea is something you will have to experiment with. Kettle pH has a big influence on coagulation, hops utilization and brightness of runoff but it doesn't have much of an effect on finished beer pH as that is set by the yeast. Get too far out of range and you make the yeasts' job harder but yeast do regulate to an impressive extent.

Yes, lactic acid acts like sauermalz as the acid in/on sauermalz is lactic acid.

 

[ajdelange]

Thinking this over further, especially remembering hearing Gordon talk about adding roast malts late and using the coffee that's been left on the burner overnight at the office and its burnt sour taste as the reason for doing so it occurred to me, put together with yeast's ability to control the pH if its environment, that perhaps it is exactly that overnight coffee sourness effect that we seek in dry stout (under control, of course). That's the only kind of stout I do and it does have that sour edge (not unpleasant) that I associate with Guiness even though the pH of the mash and finished beer are modest. Sourness is not completely determined by pH but in large part by the flavors of the acid anion (lactate, sulfate, phosphate, acetate and malate all taste quite different). This is not being offered as the factual explanation - merely as something to ponder.