Another water question

[taulpondolo]

Was planning on brewing yoopers oatmeal stout and it seems to get my pH to 5.5 I'd need alot of baking soda to correct it. Like 5.5 grams, which as you would think, made my sodium (101 ppm) and bio carb (233 ppm) skyrocket.Im willing to also use pickling lime but even with that my biocarb seems high (270 pmm).

Existing water profile

Calcium 22ppm
Magnesium 5 ppm
Sodium 25 ppm
Sulfate 42 ppm
Chloride 31 ppm
Bicarbonate 58 ppm

Any suggestions?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you are willing to use RO water, you could either

• Dilute the tap water with RO water. A 1:1 ratio would reduce the mineral PPMs by 50%.

or

• Use 100% RO water and build the mineral profile from a "clean slate".

 

[cire]

You won't need that much alkalinity, it's far too high. Mash with plenty liquor, your supply water untreated, and you will likely have mash pH at 5.2. Throw 5 grams of Calcium Chloride Flake and 1 gram of common salt in at the start of the boil.

 

[taulpondolo]

You won't need that much alkalinity, it's far too high. Mash with plenty liquor, your supply water untreated, and you will likely have mash pH at 5.2. Throw 5 grams of Calcium Chloride Flake and 1 gram of common salt in at the start of the boil.

5 grams?! That gives me 115 calcium and almost 200 chloride with a 4.67 ph. Isnt 5.4-5.6 the range everyone recommends for darker beers? Untreated my projected ph is 4.93.

 

[taulpondolo]

If you are willing to use RO water, you could either

• Dilute the tap water with RO water. A 1:1 ratio would reduce the mineral PPMs by 50%.

or

• Use 100% RO water and build the mineral profile from a "clean slate".

Yeah i was debating this but i think the RO i have access to has a lower ph than my tap water so i figure id just had to add more alkalinity and be in the same boat.

As another post recommended i may just shoot for a lower ph. Water profile looks a little more reasonable at 5.4

 

[mac_1103]

i think the RO i have access to has a lower ph than my tap water

Since it has essentially zero alkalinity, the starting pH of RO water really has no impact on the pH of your mash.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Yeah i was debating this but i think the RO i have access to has a lower ph than my tap water so i figure id just had to add more alkalinity and be in the same boat.

Without a grain bill, we're trusting your use of whatever "water chemistry" you are using.

But, like @mac_1103 said, source water pH isn't a concern.

As for what mash pH to target, that's up to you. People pick 5.2 for reasons. Others pick 5.5 for reasons.

 

[cire]

5 grams?! That gives me 115 calcium and almost 200 chloride with a 4.67 ph. Isnt 5.4-5.6 the range everyone recommends for darker beers? Untreated my projected ph is 4.93.

You've got only 22 ppm calcium in the mash. While this will lower mash pH to less than your estimated 5.5, I doubt it would pull mash pH as low as you suggest. Do a small scale (2 ounces total) trial mash and measure it after 60 minutes if you have doubts. Calcium into the kettle will aid the deposit of hot break and give clearer wort. Your stout will be all the better with 200 ppm chloride, with improved mouthfeel, smooth out roasted malts and giving more depth to the oats.

 

[taulpondolo]

You've got only 22 ppm calcium in the mash. While this will lower mash pH to less than your estimated 5.5, I doubt it would pull mash pH as low as you suggest. Do a small scale (2 ounces total) trial mash and measure it after 60 minutes if you have doubts. Calcium into the kettle will aid the deposit of hot break and give clearer wort. Your stout will be all the better with 200 ppm chloride, with improved mouthfeel, smooth out roasted malts and giving more depth to the oats.

I mean i still dont fully understand water chemistry but im sure all of the data i put into brun is correct. Ive made a pretty big RiS twice and im pretty sure i didnt adjust the water and it turned out great.

I've been half assing a couple aspects of brewing (ph, fermentation temps). One reason i just got permission from the wife to buy a chest freezer and for the ph, I've honestly been too cheap/too lazy to maintain it. Just ordered a ph meter last night.

Thanks for the input. Greatly appreciated

 

[taulpondolo]

Without a grain bill, we're trusting your use of whatever "water chemistry" you are using.

But, like @mac_1103 said, source water pH isn't a concern.

As for what mash pH to target, that's up to you. People pick 5.2 for reasons. Others pick 5.5 for reasons.

7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
10.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.68 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %

I mean im not sure why you put it in quotations, i understand im new to understanding water but putting data into software is about all one can do before completely understanding the science of it.

I understand that people prefer different phs for different reasons. Thats why i was shooting for such a ph based on content ive read.

Thanks for the input. Its greatly appreciated

 

[mac_1103]

im sure all of the data i put into brun is correct

You entered your existing water profile and Yooper's grain bill? What did you use for a target profile?

 

[mac_1103]

I mean im not sure why you put it in quotations, i understand im new to understanding water but putting data into software is about all one can do before completely understanding the science of it.

He probably used quotation marks because you didn't say what you were using to calculate your adjustments until after he posted that.

 

[taulpondolo]

You entered your existing water profile and Yooper's grain bill? What did you use for a target profile?

Yep i did all as listed. Target profile black balanced

 

[mac_1103]

Calcium 22ppm
Magnesium 5 ppm
Sodium 25 ppm
Sulfate 42 ppm
Chloride 31 ppm
Bicarbonate 58 ppm

Anything for Carbonate?

 

[taulpondolo]

Anything for Carbonate?

1 ppm. Sorry not sure what all else i should list.

Edited

 

[IslandLizard]

Since it has essentially zero alkalinity, the starting pH of RO water really has no impact on the pH of your mash.

That! ^
The crux of understanding water chemistry is that the pH of your water itself is immaterial.

1. It's the buffering capacity of your water that resists change of pH.
2. And buffering capacity is controlled by the load of carbonates (CO3--) and bicarbonates (HCO3-) in your (brewing) water.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm getting a mash pH of 5.51 with no additions when I put that data into Bru'n Water with a 7 gallon volume (and no sparge). It's possible that I messed up somehow, but I think we still need more data from OP to understand what's going on here.

 

[taulpondolo]

That! ^
The crux of understanding water chemistry is that the pH of your water itself is immaterial.

1. It's the buffering capacity of your water that resists change of pH.
2. And buffering capacity is controlled by the load of carbonates (CO3--) and bicarbonates (HCO3-) in your (brewing) water.

That's starting to become clear. Well stated.

Im starting to understand the basics of it. I learn pretty fast, just something i just skimped on.

Thanks for the response.

 

[taulpondolo]

I'm getting a mash pH of 5.51 with no additions when I put that data into Bru'n Water with a 7 gallon volume (and no sparge). It's possible that I messed up somehow, but I think we still need more data from OP to understand what's going on here.

I typically batch sparge. I plan on a thin mash using 5.25 gallons = 1.75 q/lb grist. Usually keep my other cooler with enough 175 degree water to reach a preboil volume of 7.25 gallon.

 

[IslandLizard]

I typically batch sparge. I plan on a thin mash using 5.25 gallons = 1.75 q/lb grist. Usually keep my other cooler with enough 175 degree water to reach a preboil volume of 7.25 gallon.

For most of my brews I've settled on 1.5 qts/lb for mash thickness. After the mash has completed, it gets stirred, then drained (lautered) completely with "vorlauf-ing" 2-3 times to get clear wort runoff.

I then batch sparge 2x with equal amounts of 170F water using the same routine. That has given me the best mash efficiency.

I use a rectangular 54 qt converted cooler for mash tun, with a cpvc manifold on the bottom.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm hitting your target profile and pH with less than a gram each of chalk and baking soda. Like I said, I may be the one who entered something incorrectly, but I think it's worth double-checking your inputs and outputs.

edit - looks I did miss a couple of things ounces on the grain bill, but it only changes the pH by 0.02

 

[taulpondolo]

For most of my brews I've settled on 1.5 qts/lb for mash thickness. After the mash has completed, it gets stirred, then drained (lautered) completely with "vorlauf-ing" 2-3 times to get clear wort runoff.

I then batch sparge 2x with equal amounts of 170F water using the same routine. That has given me the best mash efficiency.

I use a rectangular 54 qt converted cooler for mash tun, with a cpvc manifold on the bottom.

I typically do about the same, depending on the volume of my first runnings. Ive gotten decent (75-80%) mash efficiency with just 1 batch sparge but i like to do 2 as well.

Yooper (the op recipe) said she used a thinner mash to combat the ph so I was gonna use the same method.

I use the beginners standard 10 gallon Gatorade cooler with a false bottom and ball valve. And i have a 2nd one i store my sparge water in.

 

[taulpondolo]

I'm hitting your target profile and pH with less than a gram each of chalk and baking soda. Like I said, I may be the one who entered something incorrectly, but I think it's worth double-checking your inputs and outputs.

edit - looks I did miss a couple of things ounces on the grain bill, but it only changes the pH by 0.02

Is that with my water or RO? Again i typically batch sparge, i know you mentioned your other numbers were no sparge.

Ive checked my numbers (grain bill) dozens of times. I messed with the additions minimally as i said before i was just trying to reach an optimal calculated PH. With dropping my target down to 5.4 ph my baking soda additions were 2 grams of baking soda and 1.3 grams of lime. I have chalk, but some things ive read scared me off from using it (my ignorance about buffers and all the above, not the actual product).


Im not trying to be exact with any of my numbers, just was trying to learn and do things optimally.

Thanks for the ongoing help. Sorry for the beginner troubles

 

[mac_1103]

Is that with my water or RO?

Yours from the first post.

 

[mac_1103]

Again i typically batch sparge, i know you mentioned your other numbers were no sparge.

I changed it to a 5.25 gallon mash after you posted that. When I had it set for 7 gallons it predicted pH 5.51 before any adjustments.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yooper (the op recipe) said she used a thinner mash to combat the ph so I was gonna use the same method.

Well, that all depends on the alkalinity (hardness) of the water being used how much your grist can help to counteract that.

Our general mash pH target is 5.2, as measured at room temps. A deviation of 0.2 pH (or even 0.3?) up or down is acceptable, or sometimes preferred, depending on the beer being brewed.

Grists containing a higher percentage of dark roasted malts (which are more acidic) tend to drop mash pH, offsetting higher alkalinity in the brewing water. That's why most brewers with naturally high alkalinity (hard) water can brew dark beers more easily than light ones, without tinkering with water chemistry.*

Even when mashing grists containing a good percentage of dark malts, very hard water may still result in raising the mash pH too much too. This can happen when used in full volume BIAB. Using only half or 2/3 of that hard water could work better. Or "dilute" your hard tap water with RO or distilled water.

When hard water is used in sparging, it will always need to be acidified to keep the grist pH low enough (pH< 5.8) to prevents extracting (unwanted) tannins, silicates, and such.

* On the other side, those who brew dark beers with low alkalinity water, often have to add carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent the mash pH from dropping too low.

 

[taulpondolo]

I changed it to a 5.25 gallon mash after you posted that. When I had it set for 7 gallons it predicted pH 5.51 before any adjustments.

I think the problem was i didnt actually change the type of malt in the table. I typically input my grain bill into the same excel and just redo it every brew. Honestly thought the calculator based the malt off the color and didnt think the actual malt type would change the ph. Long story short, i had 2 of the big roast additions in my base malt tiles.


Sorry, i told you i was a beginner. 36 years old going on 79.

Thanks again for all the trouble shooting and not making me feel like the damn fool that i am in the process.

Lastly is my water good for most beer types?

 

[taulpondolo]

Well, that all depends on the alkalinity (hardness) of the water being used how much your grist can help to counteract that.

Our general mash pH target is 5.2, as measured at room temps. A deviation of 0.2 pH (or even 0.3?) up or down is acceptable, or sometimes preferred, depending on the beer being brewed.

Grists containing a higher percentage of dark roasted malts (which are more acidic) tend to drop mash pH, offsetting higher alkalinity in the brewing water. That's why most brewers with naturally high alkalinity (hard) water can brew dark beers more easily than light ones, without tinkering with water chemistry.*

Even when mashing grists containing a good percentage of dark malts, very hard water may still result in raising the mash pH too much too. This can happen when used in full volume BIAB. Using only half or 2/3 of that hard water could work better. Or "dilute" your hard tap water with RO or distilled water.

When hard water is used in sparging, it will always need to be acidified to keep the grist pH low enough (pH< 5.8) to prevents extracting (unwanted) tannins, silicates, and such.

* On the other side, those who brew dark beers with low alkalinity water, often have to add carbonates/bicarbonates to prevent the mash pH from dropping too low.

Very well said. Thats how i typically interpreted it. Apparently i didnt change my malt type tables in my grist (i just change numbers from brew to brew and try to keep similar numbers together, had some roast malts as base malts).


Was able to get a solid numbers with the target ph with a few additions, just as @mac_1103 suggested.

 

[mac_1103]

Glad you got it sorted out.

 

[mabrungard]

Was planning on brewing yoopers oatmeal stout and it seems to get my pH to 5.5 I'd need alot of baking soda to correct it. Like 5.5 grams, which as you would think, made my sodium (101 ppm) and bio carb (233 ppm) skyrocket.Im willing to also use pickling lime but even with that my biocarb seems high (270 pmm).

An important distinction and understanding is that the sodium that you're adding, is only added to the mashing water and that sodium content will be diluted when the mash is sparged. It should end up being roughly half that content in the finished beer.

Modest Sodium content (say less than 200 ppm) is not a detractor in most beer and its certainly not a detractor in a roasty beer.