TheBrewBrotha
Hoppy Beer, Hoppy Life #WeBeBrewin
Checkout the Spike Brewing Turnkey Systems. My dream rigs
Please Provide an Experienced Recommendation
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Norselord
Well-Known Member
I want to agree with you, but i am uncertain of your point.
With all due respect to the posters here... many are not answering the OP's request. He wants a turnkey or nearly turnkey automated system:
"I am looking for a system that will allow me to brew batches in various volumes (5-20 gallons). 5 gallons for one-off recipes, or tests; 20 gallons for established recipes i know i will want year-round.
I am looking for the highest degree of automation. Ideally the steps i would take are to make water chemistry adjustments, put grain into the mash tun, program a hop schedule. I want the system to automatically hit a series of mash temps, fill boil kettle, bring to a boil, automatically make hop additions. I will take it from end of boil to fermentation myself.
The system should be electric, and should NOT be BIAB."
That said, I do not know of such a system (perhaps other than the Hammacher one linked above). These exist, but are not off the shelf, and if they were, would be fairly expensive!
"I am looking for a system that will allow me to brew batches in various volumes (5-20 gallons). 5 gallons for one-off recipes, or tests; 20 gallons for established recipes i know i will want year-round.
I am looking for the highest degree of automation. Ideally the steps i would take are to make water chemistry adjustments, put grain into the mash tun, program a hop schedule. I want the system to automatically hit a series of mash temps, fill boil kettle, bring to a boil, automatically make hop additions. I will take it from end of boil to fermentation myself.
The system should be electric, and should NOT be BIAB."
That said, I do not know of such a system (perhaps other than the Hammacher one linked above). These exist, but are not off the shelf, and if they were, would be fairly expensive!
and even that hammacher one isn't totally complete, the brewer still needs to hops, grains and yeast.
Silentdrinker
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Unfortunately what he’s wanting is custom. So he’ll have to build it, have it built, have most built then spend a little time to finish it, or settle for something less automated.
If he wants to pay enough, I’ll build one for him since mine is pretty much what he’s describing.
But I really think he should consider BIAB if he’s looking for easier brew days with automation. Something like this:
http://cobrewingsystems.com/nano-brewer-home-electric-brew-system-20-gallon-kettle/
If he’s really wanting to stay away from BIAB then I believe the best option would be to have a BCS panel built by Ebrewsupply then have his pots built.
That’ll get him close to what he’s looking for. He could then spend a minimal amount of time to add an electric ball valve to auto fill his HLT and he can add some small push-pull magnetic solenoids controlled via the timer to drop his hop additions. If he explains what his plans are to Ryan at Ebrew, he can build the panel to accommodate the solenoids and ball valve(s), so he’ll just have to get them and attach them.
These solenoids would work::
https://m.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC5V-6V...851864?hash=item1ec8618018:g:IAkAAOSwtnpXkPDp
Then get a couple of those SS 300 micron dry hop filters for corny Kegs. Each one attached to a solenoid, or he can use a trap door if filtering isn’t a concern.
He can also add a couple more electric ball valves to control the water to his plate chiller and another to control his O2 if he wanted.
That’ll get him what he wants.
Norselord
Well-Known Member
Please - no BIAB. Its been mentioned about a dozen times in this thread. I want as much automation "as possible."
I think i will end up building some kind of herms system with keggles. I may use an AB1500 PLC or other to set up some programmable features. With some programming and temperature sensors, a LOT of it can be automated.
Everyone here has provided really good input, and i really appreciate it.
Silentdrinker
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I understand on BIAB. But I think the BCS route would be the most automation and closest to a turnkey solution as you’ll be able to get. It just wouldn’t be the cheapest route. I built mine for far less sourcing most part from China and they’re exactly the same components ebrew uses just not branded with their logo. I ended up getting a few things from him because I couldn’t find a source at the time, but now I can. It took me about a week during vacation to build. Regardless of how you do it, I’ll give you my opinion that you should consider RIMs especially if you’re wanting easier automation for the mash temps.
SoCal-Doug
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RIMS vs HERMS... Flip a coin. They both work fine.
Turnkey + affordable + notbiab + highlyautomated = a lot of peoples dream.
What might be a solution is to turnkey the kettles and controller as best as possible, then only build up the plumbing and a little bit of wiring. Instead of designing, fabricating and building an entire system, become an "OEM integrator" and bring together subassemblies to achieve the goal. There must be some pre-fab kettles somewhere that aren't stupid priced. Maybe buy the elements, tubing, pumps, mating connections separately to fit your needs.
Turnkey + affordable + notbiab + highlyautomated = a lot of peoples dream.
What might be a solution is to turnkey the kettles and controller as best as possible, then only build up the plumbing and a little bit of wiring. Instead of designing, fabricating and building an entire system, become an "OEM integrator" and bring together subassemblies to achieve the goal. There must be some pre-fab kettles somewhere that aren't stupid priced. Maybe buy the elements, tubing, pumps, mating connections separately to fit your needs.
Norselord
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I understand that you don't want biab and wont suggest it but I am quite curious now as to why you don't want it?
I would suggest RIMS over HERMS as well.
I don't want BIAB:
1) I may be doing up to 20gallon batches, that's a lot of weight in grain to be pulling out. I plan on putting an electric brew system in my basement, there is very little head room for a pulley system.
2) I don't like the high water:grain ratio when mashing BIAB. It can make it hard to hit pH values.
3) I want to be efficient in my sugar extraction, BIAB is reportedly much less efficient.
4) I want to make a pilot system that i can scale up, if the need arises. I want to work on a small scale version of the equipment used by large brewers. As far as i know, no commercial breweries do BIAB.
5) God told me in a dream that i should not do BIAB. I have faith in this conviction and no argument based in science or reason will shake my faith in my convictions.
Hopefully this will close out the BIAB portion of this thread.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you have thought of this but... Don't forget some ventilation. 20 gallon batches in a basement may feel like a sauna. Especially if you go 3-vessel and/or attempt rotating batches (boiling one batch while mashing another).
One larger or two smaller cheapo range hoods with a flexi vent tube to the great outdoors, would be golden.
Totally agree on lifting out spent grains from a 20 gallon batch. Personally, I would weld up something for the MLT that would allow tipping into a trash bin. At least allow space to tip the thing forward. Even scooping that much spent grain would peg the suck meter.
One larger or two smaller cheapo range hoods with a flexi vent tube to the great outdoors, would be golden.
Totally agree on lifting out spent grains from a 20 gallon batch. Personally, I would weld up something for the MLT that would allow tipping into a trash bin. At least allow space to tip the thing forward. Even scooping that much spent grain would peg the suck meter.
Norselord
Well-Known Member
Yes - hood vent city for sure.
It is a daylight basement, and the part that has an entrance - i can very likely penetrate and put an exhaust fan on.
Great idea about the tipping - i have seen this feature on brewstands.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
Blichmann controllers will allow you to control any and all steps in the mash when attached to a pc with their cable. That can automate your hot side short of telling the valves to open or close.
Plus one on the hood, dont forget make up air.
5 gallon to 20 is a tough one. Mostly due to the limiting size of a mash tun. Either its small enough to brew 5 gallons then its too small to brew a high gravity 20 gallon batch.
How about a pico brew for the test batches and a nice electric 20 gallon set up?
Im running a 30 g mash and bk and a 20 g HLT. I can easily go between 10, 15 and 20 gallon batches.
If I had to do it again Id size my system for 10 -15 gallon batches.
Plus one on the hood, dont forget make up air.
5 gallon to 20 is a tough one. Mostly due to the limiting size of a mash tun. Either its small enough to brew 5 gallons then its too small to brew a high gravity 20 gallon batch.
How about a pico brew for the test batches and a nice electric 20 gallon set up?
Im running a 30 g mash and bk and a 20 g HLT. I can easily go between 10, 15 and 20 gallon batches.
If I had to do it again Id size my system for 10 -15 gallon batches.
Silentdrinker
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I can mash 5 gal with my 20 gal blichmann tun. I made my own temp probes. So in addition to the prob at the exit of the RIMs, I made a portable one that is really long, about 12” or 16” long. I use it inside the tun. I’ll stir with it too but it’s main purpose is to check all around the mash bed for consistency.
Plus the RIMs exit probe controls the mash temp almost always. Sometimes I’ll change it over to the portable one if needed. So since it’s not controlled by a fixed temp probe in the tun, the height of a 5 gal vs 20 gal mash doesn’t make too much difference as long as it can set the bed to filter.
My issue is I use the “ultimate sparge arm.” I’m not a big fan of it for my setup. It doesn’t adjust low enough so the return could be several inches above the bed. I’ll eventually make my own.
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
Your unshakable faith is awesome. Best reason ever!
Having used a keggle for a while I will say that a straight-walled pot is a better option. You will appreciate the ease of cleaning and lighter weight for moving.
The tippy-dump is a great design concept, I've seen people construct a similar system on their single tier systems as well. I would spend as much time planning how you're going to clean as you do planning the brew day. Personally I always feel like I'm cleaning more than I'm brewing.
kal
Well-Known Member
Norselord, I was the same boat when I designed my brewing setup back in 2008 (the one I documented on TheElectricBrewery.com). I had two young kids, always busy, but I still wanted to brew. I get asked all the time why I didn't automate things more so here's a bit of a canned response from my FAQ:
After a lot of research the setup I ended up designing and still use now almost 10 years later doesn't include any automation, at least not automation in the way I think you mean. I do lots of complex step mashes but hit that temp "up" button myself instead of trying to automate it. Timing isn't critical either which is important to understand.
The biggest time sucks when it comes to brewing is having a poor process that makes you run around and do things that you shouldn't have to so I made sure to design around that so that my actual brew day tasks are pretty minimal until it's time to clean. (More info in my Brew Day Step by Step).
Which brings me to the next point: Cleaning. That's the biggest time suck, and it's not something that's easy to automate but it can certainly be made simpler which is what I did (most kettles not disconnected, HERMS coil automatically cleaned during sparging, etc).
Today I'll often brew during a work day and it isn't until after the kids are in bed and the boil's started that I spend any amount of time in the brewery, and that's mostly because I'm cleaning. Before that it's down in the brewery for 30 seconds every once and a while to flip a switch.
Lots of good points already mentioned here but I think SoCal-Doug really hit the nail on the head with this comment:
This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't
You want things to be simple to use and equally important, you want them to be easy to maintain (both short term and long).Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!
Kal
Silentdrinker
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This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't
Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!
Kal
I understand you’ve build an empire around your panel and have a faithful crew of Kal Clone missionaries, but this logic doesn’t hold in my mind. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your panel. It’s great for what it is, but your views are far too biased.
Budweiser and other mecca breweries have automated systems. They’re controlled via a control room. I imagine they get ran 20+ hours a day too. So obviously they’re saving time with automation since time is money.
A PID panel and a BCS panel are hardly different in terms of design, components or cost. Saying 100+ hours more designing a BCS vs PID panel is exaggerating. Saying it’ll cost a lot more is inaccurate too. How much did your total panel cost you from start to finish? If I were to source the parts via your website and compare the cost to what I paid to build mine, I wouldn’t be surprised if I spent less. My box isn’t as pretty with the black heat sink and laser cut panel, but that saved me money. I admit I did spend time sourcing my parts and it took longer than norm but keeping costs down was my priority. It took me longer to acquire the parts than it did to build the panel.
A BCS panel can operate 100% identical to a PID panel. So saying the PID is more simple is far fetched. The BCS can be as simple or complex as you want.
Operating a PID panel may be easier for one to wrap their head around, so there may be a slight less learning curve involved. That’s where I feel majority of the “PID is more simple” mindset comes from.
Automating processes and having remote access allows you to save a lot of time if and when needed. Start the strike water before you get off work so you can mash in once you get in the door; that saves you an hour right there.
Loading your recipe settings via a file saves more than 30 seconds.
Have the ability to monitor everything while not in the room can save a lot of time too. For example, you’re giving your 1 year old a bath. You’re not getting up to make a temp change manually until you’re done; You got side tracked while mowing the lawn and 20min goes by before you realize it; You had to run to the store to grab the wife some tampons; You have to make a run to pick up Chinese food; Your kid needs to be bailed out of jail; You dropped your vile of yeast or broke your hydrometer and have to run to the LHBS...etc. Temp changes will have to wait if it’s not automated or accessing remotely.
You may spend a little more for the BCS vs 3 PIDs, but you get more PIDs in a smaller package. Plus the panel can moonlight as a ferm chamber controller and benefit from the automation and remote monitoring/access.
kal
Well-Known Member
My views are indeed biased to how I want to brew. I can only present my logic for choosing what I did. It's up to everyone to do their own research and decide for themselves what's best for them. That's why I wrote my Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation article, to let people understand what I chose what I did, to let them decide for themselves what pros and cons work for them.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. As someone else stated in this thread comparing to what large breweries use doesn't always make sense. They have to be automated given the scale and the fact that they'd have to otherwise train dozens to run it. Automation becomes cheaper when the scale gets to a certain size.
Sorry, I may have confused the issue. My 100+ hours was to completely automate with automatic valves, automatic hop additions, or whatever else you want to do to truly 'automate'. It has nothing to do with BCS. BCS can automate some things like step mashes, but it can't automate turning valves, adding hops, and so forth. Lots of equipment (and programming) is required for that. That's the value I (and others) question as being an actual time savings.
Agreed, in operation. I mention this is in my Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation article. But BCS, or any other 'computer' based setup is going to be more complex for most folks. Because of the flexibility, computers based setups have a greater learning curve and you need to know a bit more about low voltage electronics and programming/coding if you want to fully harness the power of what they can do. None of these was a factor for me as an Electrical Engineer (I'm comfortable with this stuff), but the same may not be true for others so it should be taken into consideration when designing your setup.
I find that an inherently dangerous thing to do, but that's just me. More below.
If a system needs to be constantly monitored, it's not properly designed. I'm going to quote myself from my article to give my feedback on this and the last comment:
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Remote control or monitoring
"One feature that some of the computer based solutions are known for is that you can view your controls from anywhere using a web browser. Maybe it's just me, but to this day I still don't understand why I'd want to do that on a properly designed and implemented system. I know how my system behaves so I have no need to monitor it. I have timers with alarms to let me know when something needs to be done. That said, most of the steps in the hot side of the brewery (the wort creation process) are not timing critical. For example, because of the way the enzymes are converted as we mash, a brewer always moves from lower to higher temperatures. Temperatures need to be held for a minimum amount of time for enzymes to convert. There is no maximum time. If enzymes are properly converted after 2 hours but you did 3, it won't make a difference (good or bad). Up until the boil, timing is not overly critical in any of the steps. When an alarm goes off, you usually don't need to be on top of it immediately. For everything prior to the boil I'm usually not in the room and will often let steps run long. Boiling is the exception as I want to add hops at the right times (more or less). Even here, missing a hop addition by a few minutes will not result in a difference that is noticeable. By the time boiling is on, I'm in the room for good as I'm first stirring and watching for boil overs, then cleaning up the mash tun, cleaning fermenters, etc. All the things that require human intervention.
If a system needs to be monitored because there's a fear that the system isn't going to run right then it probably isn't designed right to begin with. Implementing controls as a web server over port 80 like this makes perfect sense of course (you can basically get this feature for 'free' with any PC based setup). I just think this is one of those 'cool' features that is neat the first time you see it but adds little value at the end of the day.
Some brewers also like to be able to remotely control their brewery. This is something I was never interested in as I feel it's dangerous to remotely control something as powerful as a brewing setup. You might turn a pump on remotely but not realize that (a) it isn’t primed properly and you’re killing it, or (b) you didn’t hook the hoses up right and near boiling water is now splashing all over the room (what if someone else was walking by?), and so forth. I have friends “pocket dial” me on their smartphones all the time because they forget to lock it. Could you imagine mistakenly turning on your brewing setup heating elements from across the country via smartphone and not realizing it until the fire department calls you? Brewing setups are inherently powerful and dangerous. I think there’s something to be said about always being in front of them to press buttons, change settings, and so forth. Usually when I want to change something on the control panel, I have a quick hose swap or valve adjustment to do as well, so being able to make a change to the control panel remotely doesn’t help me as I need to be the room anyway."
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At the end of the day there's certainly more than one way to make beer. If using automation (this is different from BCS) works for you, go for it.
Cheers,
Kal
comparing a hobby where a brew day is once every few weeks against a multi-national commercial giant that is brewing 24/7/365 is a stretch. that being said, pid or bcs seems fine to me. both do the job, it just depends on your interests. i have a pid setup and there are times where i say 'man, i wish i could be tracking this on my phone in the other room' but at the end of the day, it isn't like i am annoyed having pids. automation can be a challenge in itself and if that is your bag, go for it! i'm in the kal camp where i don't want brew day to be me pushing a button and coming back 6 hours later to wort in a fermenter. what's the fun in that?
Somehow this thread became a condemnation of automation despite the OPs request for it.
I will just say that I dont agree with many of your assessments of automated brewing Kal, and leave it at that. Maybe a unique thread debating these would be of value to some, but we all must agree that there are many ways to make beer, and as long as we individually enjoy our process and the results, that is what matters.
I will just say that I dont agree with many of your assessments of automated brewing Kal, and leave it at that. Maybe a unique thread debating these would be of value to some, but we all must agree that there are many ways to make beer, and as long as we individually enjoy our process and the results, that is what matters.
kal
Well-Known Member
There's nothing wrong with automation, I simply caution someone into thinking that it'll save them time as there doesn't appear to be any fully automatic setup available for purchase today, so you end up spending lots of time building in automation to save (what I believe is) very little time on the actual brew day. That's my 2 cents.
There are definitely different ways to make great beer (one of the reasons this hobby is fun). I don't want to fan the flames of 'anti-automation' so I won't comment on it any further.
Cheers!
Kal
There are definitely different ways to make great beer (one of the reasons this hobby is fun). I don't want to fan the flames of 'anti-automation' so I won't comment on it any further.
Cheers!
Kal
Silentdrinker
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You gave an example of your 20+ years experience to make your point that automation is not worth it due to simplicity and reliability. If it’s a system good enough for a large company like that, clearly they don’t feel the same about how you do when designing their setup. That’s all I’m getting at. Plus I don’t see any reason to not compare. Obviously my level of automation isn’t to their caliber, but most of our breweries aren’t to the caliber of most Nano breweries yet we still compare them or try to mimic them.
Sure, this can be a valid point if we’re talking insane automation from start to finish with NASA precision. He wants hop additions and auto filling the HLT. Adding an electric ball valve for an auto filler and a couple magnetic push/pull solenoids for hop additions will hardly cost much and definitely wouldn’t add a massive amount of time to implement. The ball valves run like $30-50 and a 5v solenoid can be had for like a dollar shipped from China. I take electronics apart to salvage parts. I used the fill pump from our old dishwasher for my auto fill.
It’s all hypothetical to make a point, and people do dumb stupid stuff all the time. I’m sure there are plenty of real life scenarios that make the same point with out fear of danger.
Seems a bit contradicting saying a system shouldn’t need to be monitors but then it’s dangerous to not monitor it. Regardless, it’s more for piece of mind to know things are happening.
It always come down to this. I understand the BCS isn’t automation, but it’s the solution for automation. I only use the BCS as an example because it’s the closest to a turn key solution for Homebrew automation. Most open source solutions would require more time.
comparing a hobby where a brew day is once every few weeks against a multi-national commercial giant that is brewing 24/7/365 is a stretch. that being said, pid or bcs seems fine to me. both do the job, it just depends on your interests. i have a pid setup and there are times where i say 'man, i wish i could be tracking this on my phone in the other room' but at the end of the day, it isn't like i am annoyed having pids. automation can be a challenge in itself and if that is your bag, go for it! i'm in the kal camp where i don't want brew day to be me pushing a button and coming back 6 hours later to wort in a fermenter. what's the fun in that?
I see no stretch. I made the point above. Most homebrewers strive to have setups or compare their setups to Nano breweries yet we don’t push the quantities they do. My automation is a baby version of theirs similar to how our breweries are babh versions of a commercial brewery. It’s all the same.
It’s tiring hearing people say they went with X because they want to brew and not just hit a button. If the temps change automatically and the hops drop by themselves, you’re still going to be working. I feel automation actually makes the brew process much more enjoyable. It’s not any different to having a brew assistant. It can be hard work and very frustrating sometimes.
I agree there’s nothing wrong with the PID or Kal Clone. I also feel he’s done a great job providing a resource for people and I admire it when people provide open source knowledge. It has nothing to do with that. It always ends with “do what works for you.”
But biased opinions are pushed and truths are stretched to make points. It’s that reason I get my news from The economist or BBC vs CNN or Fox.
Bottom line is I’m not a robotic engineer of 25+ years, but I know for damn sure the setup I made didn’t cost an insane amount or take an insane amount of time to build. And my setup is almost 100% what the OP wants. It actually will be 100% once I finish the tippy dump (got the parts already) and once I get the solenoids for the hop additions. I already have the other parts.
I agree. I’m probably the only person here who actually has what the op wants. It’s funny too because it’s in my daylight basement with limited ceiling height, just like he mentioned haha.
I’ve been maintaining my stance because I have 100% experience of what he wants, even though it was not a turn key system.
Anyway, this horse is dead
applescrap
Be the ball!
This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't
Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!
Kal
This seems like very sound advice. How much time and money do you want to spend to automate a simple turn of a valve. Kal surely knows quality and simplicity. Maybe reconsider the zymatic. I know its smaller batches, but man it seems pretty easy to use. I want one, and hope to find one used for cheap. Grainfather, blichmann brew easy, brew boss, the colorado systems, herms, custom, and on and on. Its a lot to consider.
Consider this, denny conn who certainly prefers low maintenance brewing, swears by a cooler but I know he also uses a zymatic. Building your own system is no easy task, see brundogs thread. Its a labor of love, time, and money. At least if you want to build it you have an awesome resource in him and if you want to do the opposite in me. You are doing the best thing imo by considering your options and going about this slowly. Cant wait to see what works for you. As far as I know the only push a button and it works off the shelf option with a reasonable price is the zymatic.
Norselord
Well-Known Member
I am putting an ad in for "assistant brewer" on Craigslist: $10/hour. Please supply references and demonstrate brewing experience.
You know, buy the ingredients, give some random dude $50 to brew for me. I can get a 150 brews done that way for the price of a Spike system. Fully automated with some form artificial intelligence.
At ~100 gallons per year, it would take 7.5 years before i spent the same on a fully automated system.
Hell, i might even make a friend or drinking buddy...
Maybe robots won't ever replace certain jobs.
:fro:
:rockin:
You know, buy the ingredients, give some random dude $50 to brew for me. I can get a 150 brews done that way for the price of a Spike system. Fully automated with some form artificial intelligence.
At ~100 gallons per year, it would take 7.5 years before i spent the same on a fully automated system.
Hell, i might even make a friend or drinking buddy...
Maybe robots won't ever replace certain jobs.
:fro:
:rockin:
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
I'm laughing my butt off now... I gotta toss out a couple things that pop into mind as i read all this...
I'm not sure ANY of us know the original poster's definition of "automation". He might have meant something to keep control of temps. He might have meant "i want something that mills grain, measures and dumps hops, wipes my butt and makes me a ham sammich". Or anything in between.
What Kal designed is nothing new. He took common sense electrical logic blocks and applied them to the application of HOME and very small scale brewing. Kudos to him for applying the same circuitry and concepts we've been using for 20 or 30 years in more different types of applications than carter has liver pills. What he did was simplify it, search out more affordable parts, make it useable and buildable by a typical joe blow, and keep it as basic as possible. Beyond that, even more kudo's for him to release schematics, instructions, and details into the public domain at ZERO cost. I really hope that enough people have bought stuff from him to make it worth his while.
PID's and other types of "process controllers" were around many years before anyone used them for brewing. What happened was a couple offshore companies made some cheaper units that could be used by hobbyist's, tinkerer's and brewers. Would i use a $45 Chinese or Auber type PID for a major manufacturing plant client? Hell no. But they work fine for what we use them for. If our brewing PID smokes itself, we risk losing $30 in grain. If that same PID were to lose its mind in a commercial plant environment, many dollars in product, equipment and time could be lost and people could be injured. Thank God i no longer have to fiddle with propane valves to hold a mash temp.
The other brewing automation boards, boxes and software are nothing new either. We were designing control systems with i/o boards, sensors of all types, valves and solenoids in the 80's and continue to do so today. Kudo's to them also for laying out an affordable board and writing some nifty software and firmware. Again, to better the hobby and go into the public domain [for those that are open source] with your efforts is commendable and awesome.
Trust me. Large scale breweries are not using $45 PID's or hobbyist control boards. You can not even begin to compare them. Most are on PLC's (programmable logic controller, Allen Bradley, Siemens, etc) with much more expensive I/O and sensors and controls than any of us want to consider purchasing. Most will have an operations center that gets fed everything happening to a central area. Just a single temp sensor and sending unit can cost more than an entire Kal panel or other wiz-bang brew controller.
The poor original poster doesn't want BIAB. ACCEPT THAT. He might choose BCS, Kal pre-fab or homebuilt, blichman, MoreBeer, SabCo, or some other IEIEO system. They ALL brew wonderful beer. Jesus, man. And who cares if he chooses RIMS or HERMS. They both work well and we all have our preferences. Maybe he wants to go steam turbine or nuclear fission heating. I guess what i'm saying is don't be defensive about what you use.
End of rant. It's become Ford vs. Chevy (even though we all know Dodge rules). Carry on!
I'm not sure ANY of us know the original poster's definition of "automation". He might have meant something to keep control of temps. He might have meant "i want something that mills grain, measures and dumps hops, wipes my butt and makes me a ham sammich". Or anything in between.
What Kal designed is nothing new. He took common sense electrical logic blocks and applied them to the application of HOME and very small scale brewing. Kudos to him for applying the same circuitry and concepts we've been using for 20 or 30 years in more different types of applications than carter has liver pills. What he did was simplify it, search out more affordable parts, make it useable and buildable by a typical joe blow, and keep it as basic as possible. Beyond that, even more kudo's for him to release schematics, instructions, and details into the public domain at ZERO cost. I really hope that enough people have bought stuff from him to make it worth his while.
PID's and other types of "process controllers" were around many years before anyone used them for brewing. What happened was a couple offshore companies made some cheaper units that could be used by hobbyist's, tinkerer's and brewers. Would i use a $45 Chinese or Auber type PID for a major manufacturing plant client? Hell no. But they work fine for what we use them for. If our brewing PID smokes itself, we risk losing $30 in grain. If that same PID were to lose its mind in a commercial plant environment, many dollars in product, equipment and time could be lost and people could be injured. Thank God i no longer have to fiddle with propane valves to hold a mash temp.
The other brewing automation boards, boxes and software are nothing new either. We were designing control systems with i/o boards, sensors of all types, valves and solenoids in the 80's and continue to do so today. Kudo's to them also for laying out an affordable board and writing some nifty software and firmware. Again, to better the hobby and go into the public domain [for those that are open source] with your efforts is commendable and awesome.
Trust me. Large scale breweries are not using $45 PID's or hobbyist control boards. You can not even begin to compare them. Most are on PLC's (programmable logic controller, Allen Bradley, Siemens, etc) with much more expensive I/O and sensors and controls than any of us want to consider purchasing. Most will have an operations center that gets fed everything happening to a central area. Just a single temp sensor and sending unit can cost more than an entire Kal panel or other wiz-bang brew controller.
The poor original poster doesn't want BIAB. ACCEPT THAT. He might choose BCS, Kal pre-fab or homebuilt, blichman, MoreBeer, SabCo, or some other IEIEO system. They ALL brew wonderful beer. Jesus, man. And who cares if he chooses RIMS or HERMS. They both work well and we all have our preferences. Maybe he wants to go steam turbine or nuclear fission heating. I guess what i'm saying is don't be defensive about what you use.
End of rant. It's become Ford vs. Chevy (even though we all know Dodge rules). Carry on!
Actually, the OP was very clear about what he wants in terms of automation.
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
Yer right. I lost track throughout the thread
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