Please HBT community, help me before the SWMBO forces me to quit!

[Picobrew]

Back to your bottle technique - did you rinse out the b-brite? How are you rinsing? What about your bottling bucket and wand?

When did the soapy taste start? First sample? Secondary? Bottle?

 

[Hoppus_Poppatopolis]

I like Gila's advice with a minor modification. Rave about how good the beer tastes and if you must dump (shudder) do so when she isn't looking.

Okay, don't lie to SWMBO. That's not a good, long-term plan.

On a serious note I think brewing a simple recipe with simple procedures would be what I would try. Stick with something amberish. Lighter beers don't hide off flavors as well and darker beers might cover it up. Shoot for the middle and follow Revvy's advice.

 

[Llysse]

Water - I guess this could be somewhat ruled out. First batch I used tap water (our water tastes pretty good), second batch I used distilled water I got at the store for the full 5 gal.

I presume you're cleaning/sanitizing everything with tap water and your cleaner of choice? If your tap water has a lot of chlorine or chloramine, I wonder if this gives you the off-taste, just from leftover chlorine residue on the bottles, in the fermenters, etc. That taste is often described as like bandaids or mediciney... depending on how you perceive it, I could see it being described as soapy, I guess.

These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.
--John Palmer

Maybe try rinsing everything with boiled water to be safe.

Also, I have to say... distilled sure isn't the best brewing water, either. It may not be problematic, but you'd probably bebetter off buying spring water if you're buying your brew water.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/distilled-water-11940/

 

[jds]

OP -- there's a lot of great advice going around in this thread. However, you do need to remember -- if you change everything about how you brew all at once, you may not be able to tell for sure exactly which change was the magic bullet. Of course, it could be a combination of factors.

Brewing is really pretty simple, but freshness, sanitation, and patience are definite requirements.

On the freshness front, I don't see that anyone has asked you where you bought your ingredients and in which forms? As a relatively new brewer, I'm worried that what you describe as "soapy" flavor could (as Revvy describes) just be green beer, or it could be any of a number of other off flavors that all tend to taste nasty to a newbie, and can be hard to tell apart, even for somebody who's had some experience in tasting green beer.

Don't give up. You'll lick the problem. Here's what I suggest:

1. Pick a beer that's not too complicated -- an amber, brown, or stout should all be pretty easy. Brew what you like to drink.
2. Skip the "kit in a can" brews if you've been using them -- it's hard to tell if they're fresh.
3. Buy ingredients from a reputable supplier that does a high volume of business. Northern Brewer, Austin Homebrew Supply, and several others all have a lot of order volume and therefore turn their extract supply over quickly, making it more likely you'll get fresh extract. Don;t buy anything with dust on it from your local homebrew store (LHBS).
4. Brew the kit with distilled water (not spring or tap). You would NOT want to take this step with all-grain or mini-mash beers, but distilled is very good for extract brewing.
5. Use a quality dry yeast in your beer. Safale S-05, and Danstar Nottingham or Windsor are good, safe bets, and will free you from worrying about smack-packs and starters for the next brew.
6. Get the beer down to 65 to 70F before you pitch yeast.
7. Once it's pitched, ignore it for two weeks at least. Put it in a dark, cool place, and pretend it isn't there. Check the temperature once a day, but don't open the fermenter (not even for gravity samples) for two weeks at least.
8. Skip the secondary. Once two weeks have passed AND the gravity is stable for three days, go ahead and rack from the fermenter into your bottling bucket and bottle away.
9. Leave the bottled beer in a warmish (around 70F) place for three weeks before tasting.

What I'm trying to describe here is a simple, uncomplicated, easy way to brew, without any extra folderol. KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) is a great way to get off the ground and get your brewing dialed in before adding any other complications. KISS, use fresh ingredients and good dry yeast, give the yeast time, and they will reward you.

YMMV, my $.02 and all that.

 

[twohands]

Did you chill your wort? If so, how? (IIRC hot side aeration can cause "soapy" flavors...). If you chilled, did you aerate before or after? And generally the rest of the advice is good. Do you have another brewer in your area? someone who might be willing to do a batch w/ you so they can help make sure of your process?

 

[fatguy-littlecoat]

You didn't make a starter? That's another issue, and potential source of off flavors. There are only enough cells in a tube or smack pack to easily ferment a beer with an og of 1.025 or less....anything over that, which is most beers, a starter is needed.

This calculator will show you how big of a starter you need to pitch.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

That's a two fold issue, if you are stressing your yeast out by under pitching, and then not letting the yeast clean up their stress caused mess, then you ARE bound to get off flavors.

according to the Wyeast WEbsite you dont need a starter for activator packs.

"6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter. "

 

[Picobrew]

according to the Wyeast WEbsite you dont need a starter for activator packs.

"6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter. "

This is true to a point - it will make beer, and it will probably be OK, but it isnt optimal. Jamil of mrmalty.com has done a lot of research on the matter, and has recommended pitching rates that are much higher than those recommended by wyeast. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

It comes down to whether you want to make adequate beer or great beer. I have noticed much better attenuation and flavor since using a stir plate and starters. The higher cell count also gives you a better chance at fighting off infections and cleaning up off flavors.

 

[Beernip]

Also, I have to say... distilled sure isn't the best brewing water, either. It may not be problematic, but you'd probably bebetter off buying spring water if you're buying your brew water.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/distilled-water-11940/

+1 to this. Distilled water will give you a flat taste that will emphasis any off-flavors.

Also, if your SWMBO doesn't drink the beer you just suck it up and drink it with a smile on your face. Go home and practice "Ahhh, this is damn good homebrew"

 

[Revvy]

This is true to a point - it will make beer, and it will probably be OK, but it isnt optimal. Jamil of mrmalty.com has done a lot of research on the matter, and has recommended pitching rates that are much higher than those recommended by wyeast. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

It comes down to whether you want to make adequate beer or great beer. I have noticed much better attenuation and flavor since using a stir plate and starters. The higher cell count also gives you a better chance at fighting off infections and cleaning up off flavors.

+1,000

fatguy-littlecoat, if you look at mr Malty rather than Wyyeast's info, you will see that the pitchrate for any beers above iirc, 1.025 exceeds the cell count of the packs...That's we we encourage everyone to just make a starter for every liquid yeast it's just good brewing practice. It ensures that your yeast is viable, increases cell count, and decreases the lag time, and any chance for stuck fermentation.

It's your choice whether you use one or not, but you WILL be less likely starting and "is my beer ruined" "I have an off flavor"or "I have a stuck fermentation" thread if you make a starter.

Even Remmy in his trollish "wisdom" constantly harkens to how the "big boys" do it. I find it little help when there is already a problem. BUT I will agree that the reason the commercial breweries and brew pubs can turnover consistent quality brews relatively quickly (though most places DON'T serve green beer, and DO age their stuff a bit) is because they pitch a HUGE amount of healthy yeast. We CAN do it too, by making a starter as part of our brewing regimen .

 

[lady_brewer]

Some randomness from an also newbie brewer...

- I also wondered if you were rinsing your cleaner from your bottles? I tend to clean and over rinse my bottles, store them, then rinse again before sanitising...

- I figure it is, but is all of your brew equipment new? Or do you have bits and pieces from other brewers? (I know you mentioned a relative that brewed)

- +1 on the leaving it before bottling for a while longer... I usually primary for 2 weeks, and then secondary... this may change and evolve over time, but for now it has worked for me.

- I have only made kits so far. I know many consider it not real brewing, and that other suggestions have considered brew materials and so on, but it may be worth doing a kit (check the expiry date on the bottom) - it won't be awesome homebrew like that of the greats here, but it will be drinkable, better and cheaper than bmc, and may give you an idea if it is something in the process outside of the brewing that is messing you up.

Good luck and keep brewing! My first two kits paid for themselves and my starter equipment when compared to what the equivalent bmc would have cost me.

 

[Jhenjum]

Your water is probably hard causing your cleaner of choice to calcify when left to soak. It doesn't rinse off. the acidity of the carbing beer de-calcifies your "soap" and leaches it into your beer.

Try soaking overnight your bottles after cleaning in a mild vinegar or starsan solution.

 

[Hermit]

Way back in the thread someone mentioned a local home brew club. Try and find one and connect with a local. Watch them brew. Let them watch you brew.

 

[Tsuyako]

-Steeped Grains for 15 min as water heated up, starting at 90 Deg. F
-Once boiling, added Gold Malt (LME)
-added 1/2 gallon water.

Just out of curiosity (noob speaking here) did you boil your grains? Or maybe squeeze the bag to get all of the wort out? I know this can cause off flavors so that is an option. Again noob here so just saying.

 

[Elshauno]

Way back in the thread someone mentioned a local home brew club. Try and find one and connect with a local. Watch them brew. Let them watch you brew.

I second the find home brew club or find experienced brewers in your area to brew with. They're out there!

 

[Keith_Mahoney]

Just out of curiosity (noob speaking here) did you boil your grains? Or maybe squeeze the bag to get all of the wort out? I know this can cause off flavors so that is an option. Again noob here so just saying.

That's what I was wondering also. He didn't mention at what temp he removes the grains.

Just to quantify, I also am a noob. Just a well read one.

 

[fatguy-littlecoat]

This is true to a point - it will make beer, and it will probably be OK, but it isnt optimal. Jamil of mrmalty.com has done a lot of research on the matter, and has recommended pitching rates that are much higher than those recommended by wyeast. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

It comes down to whether you want to make adequate beer or great beer. I have noticed much better attenuation and flavor since using a stir plate and starters. The higher cell count also gives you a better chance at fighting off infections and cleaning up off flavors.

well that kind of chaps my a$$. my wife assembled a pale hearted clone for one of my xmas presents with a 1272 smack pack, i had never used a liquid yeast and knew u needed a starter for vials. i didnt use a starter because of the info on the wyeast website. hopefully she turns out ok.

 

[fatguy-littlecoat]

+1,000

fatguy-littlecoat, if you look at mr Malty rather than Wyyeast's info, you will see that the pitchrate for any beers above iirc, 1.025 exceeds the cell count of the packs...That's we we encourage everyone to just make a starter for every liquid yeast it's just good brewing practice. It ensures that your yeast is viable, increases cell count, and decreases the lag time, and any chance for stuck fermentation.

It's your choice whether you use one or not, but you WILL be less likely starting and "is my beer ruined" "I have an off flavor"or "I have a stuck fermentation" thread if you make a starter.

Even Remmy in his trollish "wisdom" constantly harkens to how the "big boys" do it. I find it little help when there is already a problem. BUT I will agree that the reason the commercial breweries and brew pubs can turnover consistent quality brews relatively quickly (though most places DON'T serve green beer, and DO age their stuff a bit) is because they pitch a HUGE amount of healthy yeast. We CAN do it too, by making a starter as part of our brewing regimen .

thanks for the info.. i should have checked here before i used that type of yeast for the first time.

 

[viking73]

I would definately change water. Distilled is lacking in nutrients for the yeast. And tap water can have a lot of chlorine in it that will produce a phenolic taste (my wiezen suffers from this). I'm switching to bottled water and getting a mineral analysis. Not really necessary but I'm kinda geekish about this sort of thing!

 

[electric_beer]

That's what I was wondering also. He didn't mention at what temp he removes the grains.

Just to quantify, I also am a noob. Just a well read one.

This would most def cause issues. I had assumed he steeped them and that there was no added heat.

 

[jds]

I would definately change water. Distilled is lacking in nutrients for the yeast. And tap water can have a lot of chlorine in it that will produce a phenolic taste (my wiezen suffers from this). I'm switching to bottled water and getting a mineral analysis. Not really necessary but I'm kinda geekish about this sort of thing!

No, it isn't.

Extract is made by making wort the same as any brewery, then water is extracted from it. The minerals and nutrients from the original mash are still there, but concentrated. Adding distilled water to extract reconstitutes the wort without adding any minerals, sulfates, chlorides, chlorine, or chloramine back in to the wort. If OP is trying to isolate issues with his own water supply, brewing an extract batch with distilled water removes a lot of variables that would otherwise be present using well, utility, or bottled water.

This is quite different from trying to mash with distilled water.

 

[Nyxator]

This would most def cause issues. I had assumed he steeped them and that there was no added heat.

In the second post he said this:

-Steeped Grains for 15 min as water heated up, starting at 90 Deg. F

 

[zman]

wow, lots of new posts to reply to:

1) I'll be visiting my LHBS this friday if he's open (odd hours, this guy) so maybe he can help

2) I did not use the pump on the first batch for aeration, I just poured vigerously as per "How To Brew" (I foollowed the instructions there to the letter) so I doubt that's the cause

3) LME for this latest batch was ordered direct from Northern Brewer, so it should have been fresh, right? They seem reputable.

4) Bottles: for both batches I used commercial empties. First time around I scrubbed them good with dish soap now that I recall when I first got them, but then before bottling I soaked them in one-step overnight, then rinsed them in pre-boiled hot water. Second time around I thought better of this, so after I drank a beer I would just rinse the bottles out with tapwater really well and dry them. Then before bottling I soaked them in B-Brite for an hour or so, then sprayed on some star-san with a NEW spray bottle. Two different processes, same soapy flavor.

5) I'm not dumping this batch. I'll let it age till the cows come home to see if I can save it, it just seems unlikely as i'm 6 weeks in the bottle now and it tastes worse than before... then again, it may have just been more noticible in the bottle I tasted last night and I had already eaten/drank other things.

6) I pour very slowly, down the side of the glass. I usually hold it up to a light while I do it so I can see the yeast cake and stop pouring before any gets in the glass.

This evening I may get brave and taste the yeast cake itself... that may help to determine if that's the flavor or not until I can get a second opinion.

I recommend getting a bottle brush and bottle washer adapter for your kitchen faucet ( My DW does not clean bottles to my satisfaction)) My process is to fill a Rubbermaid tub with the bottles, hot water, and Ivory soap ( no scented dish soap). I clean out every bottle with the brush and give it a blast with the Jet bottle washer adapter. I use a Vinnator to sanitize w/ my star san /H2O solution. Best $16 I ever spent.

 

[thatjoshguy]

Oh man, I've been a way for a while and wasn't getting email notifications that people had posted more replies!

I'll be back later to answer the new questions if I can. I haven't dumped the batch yet but I can add this:

Last weekend I tastes a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for the first time (it's not easy to find in my area, only one store sells it.) It was good, I liked it, but I'll be DAMNED if I didn't taste the EXACT SAME FLAVOR that I consider "soapy"! Someone had told me that before and said it was the hops that tasted that way to my "virgin" pallette. Could this be true?!?

Have I been so desensitized by the american beer market that I simply don't like "real" beer? I got into this hobby after tasting a beer from a microbrewery out west, and I've had other home brew beers I liked, but is this a common flavor?

 

[remilard]

Did your beers have cascade hops?

 

[Synovia]

While I staunchly agree with Revvy that aging is always a good thing to do, I have to admit I'm skeptical that his problem is related to yeast. He's presumably used two different yeasts for his two batches, and I'm a chronic under-pitcher myself and never had a soapy taste problem. Couple that with the fact that this taste is always present in his beer, and I'm forced to believe the problem is elsewhere.

I dunno, the guy is moving to secondary while active fermentation is still going on, and probably bottling early. Theres a good chance hes just ending up with a ton of yeast in the bottle.

 

[thatjoshguy]

the first batch (True Brew Amber) did, but not the second batch. Pretty sure it was EK Goldings and willamette

 

[Cheaton]

Try making a very malty beer, like a brown ale, or a sweet stout.

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

Last weekend I tastes a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for the first time (it's not easy to find in my area, only one store sells it.) It was good, I liked it, but I'll be DAMNED if I didn't taste the EXACT SAME FLAVOR that I consider "soapy"! Someone had told me that before and said it was the hops that tasted that way to my "virgin" pallette. Could this be true?!?

Have I been so desensitized by the american beer market that I simply don't like "real" beer? I got into this hobby after tasting a beer from a microbrewery out west, and I've had other home brew beers I liked, but is this a common flavor?

Two things I thought of when I read the OP...

1: Did this guy brew a style he was familiar with?
2: Is he not accustomed to hops and or ale yeast?

If there is one thing that I think new brewers need to do, it is brew something (possibly a known good clone) they have had before more than one or twice to have a benchmark to compare to.

 

[electric_beer]

I gotta say, I think Cascades are a bit...soapy or rather I just don't care for them. I'm more of a malty type as well. Make a good stout and perhaps change your mind about your home brew.

 

[thatjoshguy]

I've been wanting to try a mocha porter, but was afraid it may be too advanced for me.

Can anyone recommend a good extract recipe (specialty grains okay too) that I should try? When drinking commercial brews, I usually stick to Grolsch, Killians Irish Red, Sam Adams, or Yuengling, although I occasionally drink Newcastle. I wouldn't mind brewing a stout or porter though...

 

[thatjoshguy]

FYI: Here's the recipe I threw together for a Mocha Stout I wanted to try: Comments/suggestions?

1lb. Extra Light Dry Extract
6 lbs. Dark Liquid Extract
12oz Crystal 120L
8oz Chocolate Malt
4oz Roasted Barley
8oz Malto-Dextrine (20min)
9oz Cocoa Powder (10min)
1/2cup Espresso Coffee Beans (added to secondary)
1oz Nugget (60 min)
1oz Fuggles (5 min)
Yeast: Wyeast Labs #1028 London Ale

I may swap out cold-brewed coffee for the coffee beans, and I'm not sure about the hops anymore... Probably want to use some Irish Moss, but I never have before so I dont' know the amount/time. Any help would be appreciated, as If I'm going to try this brew I want to get it right for once!

 

[electric_beer]

I might hold off on the coco powder until the secondary. So you get maximum amount of flavor. The hops sound pretty good, I might ditch the Fuggles and replace it with Saaz for aroma because they go together well and would complement the beer nicely.

 

[thatjoshguy]

do you think the malto-dextrine will make it too sweet? I want residual sweetness, but not too much.

 

[electric_beer]

TBH you have enough crystal and chocolate malt that you probably don't need the extra malto dextrine. Both of those won't attenuate very well, keeping a bit of residual sweetness.

 

[electric_beer]

Worst come to worse you can always back sweeten a touch with some lacto.

 

[Jim Karr]

A simple but excellent recipe:

6.6 Lbs LME
1.5 oz Centennial pellet hops
1 Packet Munton's or Nottingham dry yeast
add hops at first boil, then 30 min, then 15, then flameout.

Add most of the extract very late in the boil. You will like this simple beer, and you can focus on procedure.