PLC - Touchscreen Control Panel (TEB Based)

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I just got AutoCAD E for my PC. Should have some legit prints up soon. :)

The project will likely be delayed indefinitely after that, I am in turbo debt-payoff mode. But I will leave enough info so anyone can build their own.

:rockin:
 
The panel I am using to house the SSRs, relays, and power distribution has come in. Expect photos in the next few days of my progress!
 
Standard update: Panel Update.

Got the keyswitch and power LEDs mounted. BTW a 3/4" hole saw is too small for 22mm... I thought I bought a 7/8". I also asked the wife what color to paint the panels. Looks like we are going with the hammered gray paint.

sZy7b6V.jpg

PuVRA18.jpg

s9RJnbd.jpg
 
I am alive. Finances are mediocre, but I will be obtaining a new brew space. I will try to make some progress in the following months.

Stay tuned!
 
muhteeus said:
The plan was to use discrete autotuning PIDs, like Kal's build. I, however, am considering implenting PID control through the PLC. I just need an RTD card!
Click to expand...

I've been playing around with a Unitronics v350 and managed to heat water with it. The rest of the programming is above my head. They have an excellent free program which has drop in place PID function blocks.
 
Trillium said:
I've been playing around with a Unitronics v350 and managed to heat water with it. The rest of the programming is above my head. They have an excellent free program which has drop in place PID function blocks.
Click to expand...

Very nice. There are ways to roll your own PID functions, I was going to use the available blocks in RSLogix 500. That would give me a PID scaled output which I could use to make a PWM based output!

Looks like the 1762-IR4 cards are going for $200. Only $65 more than 3 PID's and I get the benefit of monitoring an extra temperature (heat exchanger outlet).
 
The problem with the v350 is that it only has two pt100 inputs. I would have liked at least three. To get more I would have to upgrade to the v570 at considerable extra cost. It was kind of fun playing with thou.
 
Trillium said:
The problem with the v350 is that it only has two pt100 inputs. I would have liked at least three. To get more I would have to upgrade to the v570 at considerable extra cost. It was kind of fun playing with thou.
Click to expand...

Do you have any 4-20ma or 0-10VDC inputs? You could always use an RTD transmitter.
 
Great info!
I have recently acquired an Direct Logic D0-06AR PLC and an MMI-850 Touch screen display. they did not come with the programming cables so I am making them myself.

I have no experience with the programming side of any of this and am not sure where to start. I have D/L the manuals but not getting much out of them.

I understand the ladder logic concept we used it in several of the plants I worked in but only used the touchscreens for troubleshooting etc. We had an engineer that did all the programming but he was not into teaching others anything about it.

Thought it couldn't be that hard but I am getting nowhere fast! LOL

Any help or shove in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

I have built or modified all of my own brewing equipment and enjoy the satisfaction of learning new things along the way, but feel like I am in over my head with trying to automate/monitor my brewing process.

Thanks
 
Avenger291 said:
Great info!
I have recently acquired an Direct Logic D0-06AR PLC and an MMI-850 Touch screen display. they did not come with the programming cables so I am making them myself.

I have no experience with the programming side of any of this and am not sure where to start. I have D/L the manuals but not getting much out of them.

I understand the ladder logic concept we used it in several of the plants I worked in but only used the touchscreens for troubleshooting etc. We had an engineer that did all the programming but he was not into teaching others anything about it.

Thought it couldn't be that hard but I am getting nowhere fast! LOL

Any help or shove in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

I have built or modified all of my own brewing equipment and enjoy the satisfaction of learning new things along the way, but feel like I am in over my head with trying to automate/monitor my brewing process.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I am more than willing to help. If you want inspiration checkout CladiusB and kladue setups! Those guys have working automated breweries.

As for the automation on yours, what level of control do you want? For starters on Ladder Logic, check out some basic examples. Motor start stop, and delayed on, delayed off would be good places to start.
 
muhteeus said:
I am more than willing to help. If you want inspiration checkout CladiusB and kladue setups! Those guys have working automated breweries.
Click to expand...

Thanks muhteeus.
I am a DL -06 user and willing to give him some guidance.
I will send him a PM.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Avenger291 said:
Great info!
I have recently acquired an Direct Logic D0-06AR PLC and an MMI-850 Touch screen display. they did not come with the programming cables so I am making them myself.

I have no experience with the programming side of any of this and am not sure where to start. I have D/L the manuals but not getting much out of them.

I understand the ladder logic concept we used it in several of the plants I worked in but only used the touchscreens for troubleshooting etc. We had an engineer that did all the programming but he was not into teaching others anything about it.

Thought it couldn't be that hard but I am getting nowhere fast! LOL

Any help or shove in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

I have built or modified all of my own brewing equipment and enjoy the satisfaction of learning new things along the way, but feel like I am in over my head with trying to automate/monitor my brewing process.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I used a Direct Logic D0-05 (which i purchased off craigslist for a steal) to upgrade my home heating boiler control, and its a great little PLC. The directsoft programming software is decent but not as user friendly as the automation direct Click PLC. Also directsoft is ~$400 if your program is larger than the free version supports. I went with a Click PLC for my brew build based on price/ease of programming, not to mention the free programming software. The one caveat with the Click PLC is that it doesn't have a PID block so you will need to build your own, I think there are some examples online or I could send you my version. Personally, I'd consider selling the DL-06 and getting a Click (with analog I/O)...

Anyway, if you do stick with the DL-06 here are my lessons learned:

  • DL and give a good read through the manual.
  • If you're not already familiar, learn about all the numbering systems (Octal, BCD, hex, real...). You will likely need to do some conversions (which would be typically done automatically in the click plc software). There should be an appendix in the user manual explaining each type.
  • Know the memory map table (should be in the manual) and create a spreadsheet with memory type, address ranges, and corresponding variable names.
  • Plan your program structure. I like to use sub-routines to break up the different sections of my code according to brew process. For example:

    Read I/O (every scan)
    sub-routine1 Enter Recipie / Calc brew constants
    sub-routine2 Mash
    sub-routine3 Sparge
    sub-routine4 Boil
    sub-routine4 Cooling
    Write I/O (every scan)

I can send you my Click PLC brew logic code, or my boiler logic code(directsoft) if you're interested in looking through it.
 
BigBlock said:
I used a Direct Logic D0-05 (which i purchased off craigslist for a steal) to upgrade my home heating boiler control, and its a great little PLC. The directsoft programming software is decent but not as user friendly as the automation direct Click PLC. Also directsoft is ~$400 if your program is larger than the free version supports. I went with a Click PLC for my brew build based on price/ease of programming, not to mention the free programming software. The one caveat with the Click PLC is that it doesn't have a PID block so you will need to build your own, I think there are some examples online or I could send you my version. Personally, I'd consider selling the DL-06 and getting a Click (with analog I/O)...

Anyway, if you do stick with the DL-06 here are my lessons learned:

  • DL and give a good read through the manual.
  • If you're not already familiar, learn about all the numbering systems (Octal, BCD, hex, real...). You will likely need to do some conversions (which would be typically done automatically in the click plc software). There should be an appendix in the user manual explaining each type.
  • Know the memory map table (should be in the manual) and create a spreadsheet with memory type, address ranges, and corresponding variable names.
  • Plan your program structure. I like to use sub-routines to break up the different sections of my code according to brew process. For example:

    Read I/O (every scan)
    sub-routine1 Enter Recipie / Calc brew constants
    sub-routine2 Mash
    sub-routine3 Sparge
    sub-routine4 Boil
    sub-routine4 Cooling
    Write I/O (every scan)

I can send you my Click PLC brew logic code, or my boiler logic code(directsoft) if you're interested in looking through it.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info.
I got the DL-06 and MMI-850 for free so I thought I would experiment/learn on them before making a larger investment.

It would be nice to see the programming for the 06 that is brewing related.
\I have looked at other examples of programs but since I am not sure what the real world process is that they are programming I get lost.

At least with brewing I know the process and hopefully seeing the program will help me understand the programming process.

I am building the program cable now so I can attach PLC to my laptop and start tinkering.

I am looking to put together a single tier Rims System eventually and want to be able to better control temps and eventually want to go all electric but for now it will be propane burners.

I have downloaded both manuals and anything else that pertains to the 06.

How did you input temps to the 06?
Did you have to buy an analog I/O add in card?
I seen this one F0-04THM and F2-04THM not sure what difference is between them though.
 
BigBlock said:
I used a Direct Logic D0-05 (which i purchased off craigslist for a steal) to upgrade my home heating boiler control, and its a great little PLC. The directsoft programming software is decent but not as user friendly as the automation direct Click PLC. Also directsoft is ~$400 if your program is larger than the free version supports. I went with a Click PLC for my brew build based on price/ease of programming, not to mention the free programming software. The one caveat with the Click PLC is that it doesn't have a PID block so you will need to build your own, I think there are some examples online or I could send you my version. Personally, I'd consider selling the DL-06 and getting a Click (with analog I/O)...



Anyway, if you do stick with the DL-06 here are my lessons learned:



  • DL and give a good read through the manual.


  • If you're not already familiar, learn about all the numbering systems (Octal, BCD, hex, real...). You will likely need to do some conversions (which would be typically done automatically in the click plc software). There should be an appendix in the user manual explaining each type.


  • Know the memory map table (should be in the manual) and create a spreadsheet with memory type, address ranges, and corresponding variable names.


  • Plan your program structure. I like to use sub-routines to break up the different sections of my code according to brew process. For example:



    Read I/O (every scan)

    sub-routine1 Enter Recipie / Calc brew constants

    sub-routine2 Mash

    sub-routine3 Sparge

    sub-routine4 Boil

    sub-routine4 Cooling

    Write I/O (every scan)



I can send you my Click PLC brew logic code, or my boiler logic code(directsoft) if you're interested in looking through it.
Click to expand...


You may also want to look at the new Do More processors for the DL205 line. For $400, you get Ethernet, 232, I think 1000+ PID loops and free programming software, not to mention the updated and new ibox instructions.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ore_Series_PLCs_(Micro_Modular_-a-_Stackable)
 
Just made a couple of small purchases. Trying to finish up the panels and get everything set so I can start saving for the hardware!


edit: I realize these transmitters arent in the original scope. I added these to send temps to the PLC for control purposes. I still think that the Discrete PIDs offer the most ease of use in my application. Now is your chance to convince me otherwise.

I am going to take some time this week to get the panel installed in the enclosure, get everything painted, and try to redo the HMI. The HMI program got corrupted when I reformatted my wifes laptop. So hopefully I can get everything mounted and a demo going.
 
Click brew software is here:
http://lakehouse.altervista.org/brew/Autobrew_R01_b.ckp

You'll need to download the free software to view it here:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ick)/Programming_Software_-a-_Cables/C0-PGMSW

My code is still a work in progress, but should give you a feel for how its structured.

As for the other questons:


F0-04THM is for the DL-06, the F2-04THM is for the DL-205 series, but do you really want thermocouple boards? On my boiler project I went with cheap PT100 RTD's and the same cheap transmitters you linked to and it worked great. If you want to stay with the RTD's I would recommend something like a F0-08ADH-1(8 analog in) or F0-4AD2DA-1( 4 in's 2 outs), which allows you the flexibility to use any 4-20 tranmitters in case you want to add pressure/flow etc....

As for the PID, personally I would keep the loop in the PLC for a couple of reasons.
  • Have temperature data easily available to controller and HMI
  • Ease of staging/enabling PID loops
  • Ease of alarming / protective actions
  • Ability to do more than simple PID (feed forward ctrl...)
It is possible on some of the stand alone PID units to control it from the DL-06 with a 4-20ma signal (or modbus), so that may be a way to hedge you bets.
 
BigBlock said:
As for the PID, personally I would keep the loop in the PLC for a couple of reasons.
  • Have temperature data easily available to controller and HMI
  • Ease of staging/enabling PID loops
  • Ease of alarming / protective actions
  • Ability to do more than simple PID (feed forward ctrl...)
It is possible on some of the stand alone PID units to control it from the DL-06 with a 4-20ma signal (or modbus), so that may be a way to hedge you bets.
Click to expand...

Sigh. I have been working through this in my head now for a few days.

PID loops in PLC:
Pros: Cleaner interface, more control over loops, alarming, variable SP (step mash), cheaper
Cons: More work for me(auto tune algorithm, time proportional code), accuracy concerns.

You convinced me. Removing discrete PIDs from the project. I will update the code to include a HLT PID loop, and Manual Time Proportion control for the boiler. I don't really need autotune, so I will include Kp, Ti, and Td tuning values in a popup for adjustment. This will shave about $300 off the cost of the project.

For future sensors I will need to purchase 1762-IF4 to get 4 more analog inputs.

Stay tuned. AdvancedHMI video coming this weekend.
 
I haven't tried it out yet but I have an SSR with a PCM-1 on it which takes a 4-20ma and converts it to the time proportional signal for the SSR. Bought mine off of ebay.... I think the latest version is the PCM-5. The pulsing is a bit slower than I'd prefer, but given the slow time constant of the system and the relatively limited actual brewing time I'm not to worried about overshooting temp or lifing of the element (heat stick RIMS in my case)

I would think that you could get away without autotune. My guess is an electrical setup will be pretty repeatable so once you have your gains tuned up you can set it and forget it.

My plan for the RIMS is to use flow and supply temp to calc the heat input needed. Then have a PID trim loop with minimal authority to trim out any error. This is a similar setup as I used on the job to control a 400KW(not a typo :) ) gas fuel heater using 3 SCR's.

Another option to save some cash is to use an arduino for additional I/O:) I have a Nano talking modbus rtu (RS485) to my PLC with 3 ds20b18 temp sensors and a DP pressure sensor for my bubbler level sensor. Total cost ~35 dollars (ebay). Now if I could only find time to get my build actually up and running. Working on this thing an hour here or there takes forever!
 
BigBlock said:
I haven't tried it out yet but I have an SSR with a PCM-1 on it which takes a 4-20ma and converts it to the time proportional signal for the SSR. Bought mine off of ebay.... I think the latest version is the PCM-5. The pulsing is a bit slower than I'd prefer, but given the slow time constant of the system and the relatively limited actual brewing time I'm not to worried about overshooting temp or lifing of the element (heat stick RIMS in my case)

I would think that you could get away without autotune. My guess is an electrical setup will be pretty repeatable so once you have your gains tuned up you can set it and forget it.

My plan for the RIMS is to use flow and supply temp to calc the heat input needed. Then have a PID trim loop with minimal authority to trim out any error. This is a similar setup as I used on the job to control a 400KW(not a typo :) ) gas fuel heater using 3 SCR's.

Another option to save some cash is to use an arduino for additional I/O:) I have a Nano talking modbus rtu (RS485) to my PLC with 3 ds20b18 temp sensors and a DP pressure sensor for my bubbler level sensor. Total cost ~35 dollars (ebay). Now if I could only find time to get my build actually up and running. Working on this thing an hour here or there takes forever!
Click to expand...

I didn't realize they made those. I will just use the STI file for my PID, calculate the appropriate ON time, then use a 2s cyclical timer and hold the output on for TIMER.ACC ≤ PID ON TIME.
 
Another shameless self bump. The HMI is roughly working. I still need to add in the analog elements, regarding temperature control. The program works as expected, though my logic is not completed. I also had to strip some of the fancier stuff due to some bugs with MicroLogix and the AdvancedHMI software. The bug also causes some errors to be displayed on the buttons, though they do control.

I also purchased the receptacles for the elements and pumps. This only leaves a cord grip, paint, and grounding terminals on the BOM for the heat panel.

The old version of the HMI was corrupted\lost\destroyed\i dont know where i saved it... So below is the ROUGH new version.



HERE is the revised AdvancedHMI deployment. May or may not crash, since it cant see the plc.
 
Last edited:
I need some suggestions. I have some faults with using the PLC to control the SSR directly. My SSRs are SSR-40DA, so I would need to pull 24VDC into the PLC and switch it.

I think the contactors (plc has relay outputs) may we wear out if I am using a 2s time period.

My current idea is to use a 4-20ma input SSR, where it takes in 4-20ma and controls the SSR directly. This is easier to program, commission, and wire than anything else I can come up with. Auber also has THIS (0-5VDC, 90% output, 25A)

Ideas? Thoughts? Gripes?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Edited the logic last night. Added PID loops, analog I/O scaling. All that's left is scaling the SP from the HMI to the PID
 
It's been 3 days so I can bump myself :). I will be drilling and mounting the receptacles, and then painting the enclosures soon. I also got a free 4/6 dryer cord from mom!!

I also want to admit a goof. THHN was used inside the panel, this was a lapse on my part. THHN should be used in conduit, between panels. THHN is a rigid, miserable, unforgiving SOB. I hate it. MTW is oil and water resistant and made for wiring panels. I will rewire the entire panel using CORRECT #10 and #16 MTW wiring in the same wiring convention. THHN will be reused in conduit between panels.

One last note. Construction on the massive garage/finished brew space starts in the spring. I'll post updates!
 
I found an Allen Bradley Micro830 on Ebay with 2 channels of motor control and two analog inputs. My dream is to build a RIMS system with a variable speed recirc pump to maintain liquid level above grain bed and a cascaded PID control to control Mash temperature. The programming software from Rockwell is free (just need to register) . I program for my day job in RSlogix 5000 so it will be a learning curve but came from old school Z80 control system application so hard could it be! I'm interested in your HMI workings as that is my weakness. Hopefully someone using Rockwells' Connected Components architecture will chime in.
 
preinke said:
I found an Allen Bradley Micro830 on Ebay with 2 channels of motor control and two analog inputs. My dream is to build a RIMS system with a variable speed recirc pump to maintain liquid level above grain bed and a cascaded PID control to control Mash temperature. The programming software from Rockwell is free (just need to register) . I program for my day job in RSlogix 5000 so it will be a learning curve but came from old school Z80 control system application so hard could it be! I'm interested in your HMI workings as that is my weakness. Hopefully someone using Rockwells' Connected Components architecture will chime in.
Click to expand...

I have yet to use Connected Components for anything but drive programming. The HMI software I am using is AdvancedHMI. There is a Micro830 driver, I believe. Using the software is as simple as typing in the tag you want to reference! The forums are also a great place to learn; often you will get a response from Archie, who wrote the software.

My HMI is pretty basic. Most of the buttons and layout are "off the shelf" directly from the software. I will be making a few changes for popups and password protection (don't want my brew buddies touching my PID settings). All of my files are posted farther back if you need examples. I have not updated the PLC logic in a bit, but I will be posting soon.

RSLogix500 is not too hard. If you are old school, it is pretty simple. It's just a matter of what instructions your processor supports. My Micro1200 doesn't allow for online edits, so that was weird coming from v21 ControlLogix ;).

Please, please, start a build thread. I know myself, and possibly some of the others would love to see your progress and methods laid out on "paper".

Don't hesitate to comment or pm if you need any help. I have some limited knowledge that I could share haha.
 
There have been three other posters that have used or simulated the Micro800 series. I PM'd them but haven't received any replies yet. A couple were a bit dated so they may have been discouraged with the maturity of the product.

I bid for a 6" TFT AB touch panel but was out sniped so I was looking into the AdvancedHMI product you are using. Found a youtube video describing the steps necessary to install but it seemed a bit dated . Any help getting started would be appreciated.

I am a Structured Text programmer and will be using the toolkit version of the development environment . I am not the best documenter but will try harder to comment my code!

I'm in search of dead pumps with the magnetic coupling to be converted to stepper motor drives
 
Just found this thread and read/skimmed the whole thing. Hope you get your system finished, I would really like to see it in action.

I would like to build my own someday down the road, not for awhile considering me and my brew buddies just purchased a system last December. You have inspired me to do more research and start dreaming/designing my dream system for the future.

Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing!:mug:
 
Maybe I should finish this? I had a few kids and lost track.

Is PLC the best option still? Any server based PI controllers?
 

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