pitching a more tolerant yeast in secondary

[MattTimBell]

Hi all,

I'm starting my mental preparations for brewing an imperial stout next month, and anticipate needing to add champaign yeast in "secondary". I've never done that before, and wonder about technique?

I'm planning on hitting an OG around 1.157 and a final ABV of around 15%. The goal is to have an estery ale yeast -- say Windsor or the like -- ferment it as far as it can, then have a champaign yeast finish it out and handle the bottle carbonation as well. Because the environment after the Windsor is done, however, will be anoxic, I'm wondering if I need to do anything to make sure the champaign yeast really can take hold and handle the rest of the work.

Thanks for your thoughts!

-- Matt

 

[Revvy]

Hi all,

I'm starting my mental preparations for brewing an imperial stout next month, and anticipate needing to add champaign yeast in "secondary". I've never done that before, and wonder about technique?

I'm planning on hitting an OG around 1.157 and a final ABV of around 15%. The goal is to have an estery ale yeast -- say Windsor or the like -- ferment it as far as it can, then have a champaign yeast finish it out and handle the bottle carbonation as well. Because the environment after the Windsor is done, however, will be anoxic, I'm wondering if I need to do anything to make sure the champaign yeast really can take hold and handle the rest of the work.

Thanks for your thoughts!

-- Matt

I did something similar in my "special" barlewine in my sigline. But I just racked, added some sugar solution and pitched the new yeast. You really have a limited amount of things you could do in this instance, because you don't really want to add more oxygen, because since you beer is probably between 80 and 90% done at this point (heck even over 50% it would be bad) you don't want to run the risk of oxydyzing the beer.

 

[Nateo]

Avery Brewing has a few 15%-ish ABV beers. From talking to a couple guys that work there, they use 3787, let the beer ferment as far as it will go, once the ABV gets too high, they pitch fresh yeast everyday until it's finished.

So, if you go the champagne yeast route, I'd make a large and active starter, and pitch that in the secondary, and maybe plan on pitching a few times.

 

[MattTimBell]

Thanks. Another possibility that has occurred to me is to pitch both the estery and the champaign yeast at the same time -- both in primary -- or to pitch the Windsor, let it get a head start multiplying by waiting an hour, then pitch the champaign yeast. How might these two options affect things? Might I still get an estery character, but get enough of the more tolerant yeast to take it to dryness?

 

[Nateo]

What I would do, make a simple beer, like a pale ale, of about 1.040-1.050, let it ferment out, and rack it off the yeast cake. I'm assuming you're using some sort of simple sugar, right? Make the stout as you normally would, leave the sugar out, and leave a bit of water out. Pitch the all-grain wort on the yeast cake, let that ferment completely. Then boil a bit of water with the sugar, and add that in one or two doses.

I've brewed some 1.120-ish Belgian beers that way with 3787, and they finish dry enough that way, without using any additional yeast.

I've taken S-04 over 13% ABV that way too. Yeast tolerance isn't a hard and fast rule, you can take them up and over their tolerance if you treat them right.

Also, ferment at like 55-60* because with that much fermentation activity, you'll get plenty of ester formation.

This is where I got my technique from:
http://beerdujour.com/Howtobrewabigbeer.htm

 

[commonsenseman]

I just racked an Imperial Stout to secondary last night & added Champaign yeast. No additional sugars though. Mine is only supposed to be around 8-9% when finished & it needs to sit in secondary (according to the instructions at least) for 1-4 months. Well, no activity at all yet & all the yeast settled to the bottom over night. Is it possible my temp is too cold at 60*? (I had a very healthy fermentation in the primary) Or do I just need to relax & wait it out?

 

[Revvy]

If you didn't add anymore sugars, I doubt if you'll see too active of a fermentation. It's not likely to bee too dynamic, since there's not a lot of sugar still in there, so it's not going to be a huge orgy or activity. You could maybe do with a few degrees warmer, but that really depends on the temp range on the yeast. I'd just relax, the yeast will find those sugars.

 

[commonsenseman]

Thanks for the advice Revvy, I wrapped a blanket around it & will leave it alone for a while.

O.P.: Keep us posted, it'll be interesting to see how that stuff turns out for you. I'm pretty interested myself in trying something like that.

That is gonna be one big beer when you're done

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

I have no experience brewing beer, but I did some fruit wine a few years ago (mango wine is fairly popular in Florida), using champagne and montrachet yeast. I don't know if the yeast will act the same way in beer as in wine, but, ust in case it does, here's what I know:

Commonsenseman: yes, your temperature is a little low. IIRC, champagne works best @ 70-75*F.
Also, at least in wine, champagne makes no head at all, just a little foam ring around the edge. I'd check the SG to see if the yeast is active. I have gotten to .990 FG on pineapple wine, using champagne.

MattimBell: Nateo hit it right in the head. Yeast needs oxygen to reproduce, not to convert sugar into alcohol. If you make a large, healthy starter, you should be ok.

 

[XpeedeeX]

Thanks. Another possibility that has occurred to me is to pitch both the estery and the champaign yeast at the same time -- both in primary -- or to pitch the Windsor, let it get a head start multiplying by waiting an hour, then pitch the champaign yeast. How might these two options affect things? Might I still get an estery character, but get enough of the more tolerant yeast to take it to dryness?

I saw this and was curious if this will work? What will happen?