Pitched to little yeast, repitch after 5 days?

[Brewshna]

Hi, i brewed a 20.5°P beer and pitched 2 packs of 1084. fermentation started great after 12h but CO2 production stopped on day 3. after re calculating the yeast amount I noticed I need 200bil cells more than I pitched. Now can I add more yeast on day 5/6? I had to reorder more yeast, so there's that time to pass.

I checked fermentation on day 3,down to 6.5P, goal is 5.2P. also tasted very bitter for only 28g northern brewer at 60 min. smells nice and fruity.
Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[VikeMan]

First, let's find out if there's really a problem. It's not uncommon for fermentation to slow down by the third day, particularly if fermentation temperatures were on the high side (causing the bulk of fermentation to happen quickly). If your fermenter isn't completely sealed (except for the airlock), you could see little or no airlock bubbling once fermentation slows. I would wait a few days, and then check the gravity again.

 

[Brewshna]

thanks for the reply.
All yeast pitch calculators say I need 400B cells, i pitched apr. 200B. The fermenter is sealed, pushing down on it causes airlock to rise. fermented at about 18.7C. Will wait a bit and re measure gravity.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeast only produce CO2 during the initial part of the ferment which was probably done on day 2 or 3. Any CO2 you see bubbling from your airlock after that is the excess dissolved CO2 coming out of solution.

The yeast multiply quickly in your fermenter and they really go through the sugars early in the fermentation, then slow down as they finish up and clean up the intermediate products. For adding more yeast at this point, you would need to add trillions of yeast cells to have much effect. Check the gravity on day 10 or 12 and see where it ends up.

 

[Miraculix]

The beer is almost finished, no need for pitching extra yeast.

 

[VikeMan]

All yeast pitch calculators say I need 400B cells, i pitched apr. 200B.

The vast majority of underpitched batches do finish attenuating, arriving at the same (or nearly the same) FG.

The fermenter is sealed, pushing down on it causes airlock to rise.

Yes, an imperfectly sealed bucket lid can display exactly what you're seeing:

- Airlock activity during peak fermentation, as the pressure is high enough that it can't all escape through the leak(s), so some escapes through the airlock.

- No airlock activity once fermentation starts to wind down, because all the CO2 is now able to take the path of least resistance through the leak(s) without disturbing the airlock.

- Forced airlock activity when pressing down on the lid. Pressing down on the lid is the pressure equivalent of making a bunch of CO2 at once. As a leak test, it's not useful.

 

[Brewshna]

thanks a lot everyone. will stay patient and check gravity in a few days.

 

[Brewshna]

ok, so the gravity turned out Allright. transfered to secondary and added cinnamon and vanilla and left that for 2 weeks. then bottled while adding sugar to the bottles. left for the 2 weeks. tasted yesterday, they flavor is fantastic but it has 0 CO2. no head, no foam no bubbles. I'm guessing the yeast was so over worked that it dint produce anymore gas. Will wait for a little longer to see if that changes, but hopes are down.

ps: bottled a Amber the same days, bubbles n foam everywhere.

 

[IslandLizard]

ok, so the gravity turned out Allright. transfered to secondary and added cinnamon and vanilla and left that for 2 weeks. then bottled while adding sugar to the bottles. left for the 2 weeks. tasted yesterday, they flavor is fantastic but it has 0 CO2. no head, no foam no bubbles. I'm guessing the yeast was so over worked that it dint produce anymore gas. Will wait for a little longer to see if that changes, but hopes are down.

ps: bottled a Amber the same days, bubbles n foam everywhere.

If you're sure the caps aren't leaking, you could add a little yeast suspension from a syringe to each bottle... Carefully crack the cap, inject 0.5 or 1 ml, re-seal cap, invert, and put back on the shelf.

 

[Brewshna]

we opened 5 bottles yesterday, all exact same. don't think they are leaking. that's an interesting idea though. Only have S-04 at home, we used wyeast 1084 for the bear. wouldn't that mess it up?

 

[IslandLizard]

we opened 5 bottles yesterday, all exact same. don't think they are leaking. that's an interesting idea though. Only have S-04 at home, we used wyeast 1084 for the bear. wouldn't that mess it up?

Between transferring to secondary and the 2 weeks in there apparently not enough yeast remained in suspension apparently...

No, it won't mess anything up. You can use any yeast you have on hand to carbonate. To carbonate high alcohol beers you could even use a champagne yeast (good to ~18% ABV).
A yeast/beer flavor profile is set during the early days (1-2 weeks) of active fermentation, that's where most of the esters and flavor/aroma products are created, along with the alcohol(s).

Just "dissolve" 1/2 a pack (5.5 grams) of S-04 in 100ml of room temp "sterile" water (boiled/microwaved, then cooled). Stir well and fill a syringe (or use a teaspoon) and dispense over your bottles.

 

[IslandLizard]

On a side note, there's rarely any need for secondaries in most straight forward beers... really! You may as well omit them, leaving your beer in the "primary." Siphon from above the trub/yeast layer into your bottling bucket with priming sugar.

then bottled while adding sugar to the bottles.

You sure you added enough sugar to each?

 

[Brewshna]

added 1.8g to each bottle, should be enough. put in secondary to add cinnamon and vanilla. i read that too long in primary, the yeast can break apart and give off flavours.

 

[Miraculix]

Between transferring to secondary and the 2 weeks in there apparently not enough yeast remained in suspension apparently...

No, it won't mess anything up. You can use any yeast you have on hand to carbonate. To carbonate high alcohol beers you could even use a champagne yeast (good to ~18% ABV).
A yeast/beer flavor profile is set during the early days (1-2 weeks) of active fermentation, that's where most of the esters and flavor/aroma products are created, along with the alcohol(s).

Just "dissolve" 1/2 a pack (5.5 grams) of S-04 in 100ml of room temp "sterile" water (boiled/microwaved, then cooled). Stir well and fill a syringe (or use a teaspoon) and dispense over your bottles.

Don't use any yeast to carbonate! If the yeast used for carbonation ferments more longer suggests than your initial yeast, you'll end up with bottle bombs. Champagne yeast is good, as it doesn't ferment longer sugars, or cbc1 is also good for this.

 

[Brewshna]

but I don't have anything other than s04. anything other I would have to order online, and that takes for ever.
You wouldn't belive it but I live in Munich, and there's not one single home brew shop.

 

[VikeMan]

then bottled while adding sugar to the bottles. left for the 2 weeks. tasted yesterday, they flavor is fantastic but it has 0 CO2. no head, no foam no bubbles. I'm guessing the yeast was so over worked that it dint produce anymore gas. Will wait for a little longer to see if that changes, but hopes are down.

Big beers often take longer to carbonate. Personally, I would give them more time (as in weeks. not days), at about 70F, and see what happens. It may be that you'll need to add more yeast, but you won't lose anything (except some time) by waiting to confirm that.

 

[IslandLizard]

i read that too long in primary, the yeast can break apart and give off flavours.

Yeast autolysis doesn't happen until after 2-3 months, or longer. Your transfer to secondary is thus unnecessary, while the odds are it will introduce oxygen, which will oxidize your beer, which does affect your beer in a negative way.

 

[Brewshna]

makes sense. do you also dry hop in primary?
Thanks everyone for all the advice by the way,it's much appreciated.

 

[Brewshna]

even though there is no sign of any carbonation at all after 2 weeks in the bottle?

Big beers often take longer to carbonate. Personally, I would give them more time (as in weeks. not days), at about 70F, and see what happens. It may be that you'll need to add more yeast, but you won't lose anything (except some time) by waiting to confirm that.

 

[Miraculix]

even though there is no sign of any carbonation at all after 2 weeks in the bottle?

I had bigger beers that needed more than a month to build initial carbonation and almost two to finish carbonating, just to give you an idea.

If there's nothing after a month, I would consider using a bottling yeast like cbc1.

 

[VikeMan]

even though there is no sign of any carbonation at all after 2 weeks in the bottle?

Yes. The odds that your fermentation reached an appropriate terminal gravity and then the yeast, at that moment, all gave up the ghost are vanishingly small. But if you do decide to add yeast, I would encourage you to not re-yeast a couple of the bottles. Then check those bottles after a couple months.

Also, just a sidebar about "no sign of any carbonation." My guess is that there has already been some CO2 produced so far, but not enough to be obvious. In fact, your beer certainly also contained some residual CO2 from fermentation, even though it's not obvious that it's there.

 

[Pkrd]

Are the bottles stored somewhere warm?

 

[Brewshna]

Are the bottles stored somewhere warm?

cellar, about 65F(18.5C). As mentioned, we bottled our amber ale the same day, and stored the same place, that's CO2 massive.
I'll stay patient and wait another 2-3 weeks and check.
At least I know it tastes great

 

[VikeMan]

cellar, about 65F(18.5C). As mentioned, we bottled our amber ale the same day, and stored the same place, that's CO2 massive.

As mentioned before, 70F would be faster.

 

[IslandLizard]

do you also dry hop in primary?

Absolutely!

 

[IslandLizard]

Don't use any yeast to carbonate! If the yeast used for carbonation ferments more longer suggests than your initial yeast, you'll end up with bottle bombs. Champagne yeast is good, as it doesn't ferment longer sugars, or cbc1 is also good for this.

Using Champagne or CBC1 yeast instead of S-04 (or any other yeast) is a good point, yes!
I didn't mean to potentially steer the OP into the wrong direction.

And indeed, higher ABV will slow the yeast down and thus the carbonation process. So give it more time and in a warmer (~70F) place.
Bigger beers benefit from longer conditioning time anyway, so it's only getting better.

 

[Brewshna]

8.1ABV is bigger?

 

[Brewshna]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1071783/cherrlock-holmes
the recipe btw

 

[VikeMan]

8.1ABV is bigger?

Yes, at least from the yeast's perspective.

 

[IslandLizard]

8.1ABV is bigger?

Much bigger than a 5-5.5% beer from a 1.050 wort.

IIRC, any wort over 1.060 is considered high gravity. You were at 1.082, so yes, a big beer.
Although you pitched 2 packs of yeast (of unknown age and viability) you would have been better off making a starter with one pack and pitch that.

Also oxygenating (or at least thoroughly aerating) your wort at pitching time would have helped this beer along much faster and arguably better.
Those factors become exponentially more important at higher gravities.

 

[Brewshna]

learned about starters since then, won't make that mistake again. Yeast was 1 month old max and the wyeast packs bloated nicely before pitching. Tried to oxygenate by passing through nanomesh filter bag while transferring to fermenter from kettle.
only our second beer ever.

 

[dwhite60]

Carbonation in a bottle requires three things, yeast, something fermentable, and PATIENCE.

Really, I think some patience with this would go a long way. All my beers sit at least three weeks in the bottle before I even think about opening them.

It's hard to lose all the yeast in a beer unless it's finely filtered. You've got yeast, you added sugar, now patience.

 

[Brewshna]

By the way, an update. left this beer for 10 weeks and it's much better. Thanks a lot for all the good advice.