Pilsner Will Not Clear - What Am I Doing Wrong?

[barhoc11]

Alright guys, I am at my wits end. I brewed a Czech Pilsner back in October that will not clear up. I kegged it almost two months ago and it has sat in my keezer around 37F to try to get this yeast to fall out of suspension. I have pulled glasses from the keg to make sure it wasn't just the sediment on the bottom and it doesnt seem to be the case, especially since I put a glass of the beer in the fridge to see what happened, and after two weeks it was still cloudy.

I had a similar issue with a Zombie Dust clone I made in the summer but I blew it off to not having enough time until it was served.

It doesn't seem like chill haze so what could this be? Any help is appreciated!

 

[LLBeanJ]

All grain? If so, describe your mash process with this brew.

 

[Happywanderer]

Irish Moss. 1tsp (rehydrated) added at 15 minutes. Also - chill method and time?

 

[QuercusMax]

Could be yeast or tannin haze. How did you treat your water? If you mashed at too high a pH you could have extracted lots of tannins.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Give flavorless gelatin (Knoxx) a shot. But that being said, I'm thinking it may be an infection. Any off-flavors?

MC

 

[barhoc11]

This was AG, I mashed @150F for 60 minutes. Based on my ph calculations, I only needed to add some baking soda to increase the sodium levels.

I used SafLager West European Lager and I hit my numbers.

I know I can try gelatin but I really want to avoid this in the future, I normally use some whirfloc at the end of the boil. I just thought if I brew correctly, the beer will clear over time. I have been doing this for years and I am stumped.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Since it's not clearing with time, I'd be inclined to suspect incomplete starch conversion during the mash. Did you do an iodine test? Also, did you measure the mash pH?

 

[barhoc11]

Since it's not clearing with time, I'd be inclined to suspect incomplete starch conversion during the mash. Did you do an iodine test? Also, did you measure the mash pH?

No and no, I have never done a iodine test and rarely will I test with a mash ph test strip. I just have not had these issues before and I am not sure how I had incomplete conversion during my mash when I hit my temperatures for the correct length of time. I did add 3ml of Lactic Acid based on my ph calculations for where I needed to be based on water and malts. Could the baking soda do this?

 

[fermentology]

I would say mash pH or Calcium levels might be too low. Calcium helps yeast flocculation. As soon as I started paying attention to water treatment my beers became dramatically clearer.

 

[Rockn_M]

Are you sure it was done fermenting? I've had a batch look like that and it was becasue I was rushing things and it wasn't ready?

What was your OG and FG?

 

[barhoc11]

are you sure it was done fermenting? I've had a batch look like that and it was becasue i was rushing things and it wasn't ready?

What was your og and fg?

og: 1.057
fg: 1.016

 

[barhoc11]

I would say mash pH or Calcium levels might be too low. Calcium helps yeast flocculation. As soon as I started paying attention to water treatment my beers became dramatically clearer.

I do water treatments as well for most of my beers but since this was a Pilsner, it matched my local water pretty well so I only added baking soda to increase the Na content.

 

[LLBeanJ]

No and no, I have never done a iodine test and rarely will I test with a mash ph test strip. I just have not had these issues before and I am not sure how I had incomplete conversion during my mash when I hit my temperatures for the correct length of time. I did add 3ml of Lactic Acid based on my ph calculations for where I needed to be based on water and malts. Could the baking soda do this?

Possibly. The reason I asked about whether you tested for conversion and mash pH is because you are treating your water to hit a target profile, but if you don't know whether you actually hit the target then all bets are off. If your pH was too low or too high (more likely too low), it can hinder conversion. If you're not testing for conversion, then this would not be evident as you simply mash for the 60 min and call it good, when in fact a longer mash would be required to achieve full conversion.

 

[cannman]

og: 1.057
fg: 1.016

Hmm.

I wonder if at 1.016 (beer is sweet, I assume?), if it was not done with the fermentation process and you are seeing the suspended yeast still active and happy. What strain did you use?

 

[fermentology]

I do water treatments as well for most of my beers but since this was a Pilsner, it matched my local water pretty well so I only added baking soda to increase the Na content.

It could still be that your Ca level was too low. If you have soft water you generally need to add minerals because of a lack of them. Your pH was also probably too high. Even with a low buffering capacity, pale malts will only drop the mash pH so far.

 

[Sir-Brews-Alot]

Well even if the beer wasn't done fermenting when you racked it to the keg, sitting in the keg at 37°F for two months should have knocked all the yeast out of suspension either way. Judging by it's appearance, I'm inclined to go with the "incomplete starch conversion" theory, as I had a Bitter that looked just like that, which I suspect had the same issue.

 

[madscientist451]

What was your malt bill for this beer?

 

[madscientist451]

With an OG of 1.057 and a FG of 1.016 I'm calculating an apparent attenuation of 71%. The info I have on your yeast says its usual attenuation is 68%. You've had it cold for a couple of months, so it doesn't look like a yeast problem. Put in your malt bill and any other details of your process and perhaps someone can figure it out.

 

[VladOfTrub]

GREAT JOB!!!, even though the beer is cloudy, you attempted to brew a style of beer, which is actually pretty hard to brew.

"I just thought if I brew correctly, the beer will clear over time. I have been doing this for years and I am stumped."

Indeed. For years you have brewed Ale, correctly, using the English method. Now, you have attempted to brew Pils, using the same method. It doesn't quite work. It is enzymatically, impossible. If you are thinking about continuing to brew the style, Noonan's book on lager brewing will help.

A saccharification temperature of 150F is in the beta range. As one brewer mentioned, mash pH is important. If the pH doesn't fall into the range that is optimum for beta at 150F, enzymatic action slows down. Waiting an hour for conversion, might not have cut it. When an optimum temperature is used, which favors a certain enzyme, an optimum pH should be used, as well.


The beer will clear, give it time. Hell, there ain't even a head on it yet! The OG was high, Oktoberfest high. The yeast isn't finished and won't drop out, until dorment, spent or starved. Here's the thing when it comes to brewing pils, lager or for that matter, any style. If the hydrometer sample is drawn from the kettle and it is hot. If it is cooled rapidly and doesn't clear, the beer should be fined or filtered, or it becomes a waiting game. Then, what happens, is that the beer will begin degrading, before it can age and clear.

Now, chances are, the yeast are still alive and well and if you primed with canned or powdered malt, the beer will cloud up. Now, here's the Catch 22. If fermentation wasn't complete and you primed, the pressure in the keg will get pretty high and then, foaming goes crazy. Remember, when you read about the Pils and lagers brewed in Europe, how the bartender had to draw three beers, to allow the head to fall? If you primed and if the yeast are doing fine, foam city. The glass you are holding, you'd need a hundred of them to hold the foam.
The beer is still young, lager yeast works slow, let it be and check the relief once in awhile. If the beer refuses to clear, the brewing method failed.
Raise the temperature to 50F and begin checking the relief for pressure after a month.
Let's see the recipe.

 

[VladOfTrub]

OP...I forgot to ask. Did you a diacetyl rest on this brew? The rest can cause problems down the line. Do not assume that a diacetyl rest is something that has to be performed, because it is Lager. It is a last ditch attempt to save a failed beer, by beating the daylights out of the yeast. If the yeast was beat to death, the beer might have to be krausened. If diacetyl is forming, it is better to correct the brewing process, than continue to perform a diacetyl rest.

 

[Skiffy]

Anybody ask about your fermentation schedule yet?

 

[The_Bishop]

This was AG, I mashed @150F for 60 minutes. Based on my ph calculations, I only needed to add some baking soda to increase the sodium levels.

That's you problem, right there. Mash PH was probably *way* off, and it didn't convert all the starches. Baking soda is a base and will reduce the acidity of the mash. Depending on how alkaline the water you used to mash was, compounded by the baking soda and the fact that pilsen malt probably won't acidify the mash enough on it's own, I'd say you had a mash PH issue that inhibited the conversion process. You have one hell of a starch haze that isn't going to go anywhere. You could try gelatin, or filtering.

 

[McKnuckle]

I saw that too and agree that it's a red flag. I never add sodium, and if I did it would be with table salt. Baking soda raises pH, which is the last thing you want with an acid-deprived pils grain bill.

How much baking soda did you add?

 

[VladOfTrub]

OP...Though, mash pH might have been out of whack, the gravity dropped to 1016, quickly. If the pH was completely out of the park for beta, it could have been in the alpha range. The gravity wouldn't have dropped to 1016 if that occured.

Here are a few reasons why beer can be cloudy. The beer is loaded with excess protein. When protein drops out, flavor and hop character go with it. Excessive starch carry over. Especially, if the mash out procedure was employed. Mud flushed out of the mash during sparge. Those things reduce the quality and shelf life of the final product. But, anyway, give the beer a chance to settle down. Keep in mind, you might have to krausen.

I began learning the tri-decoction method in 1987 and since that time, I haven't used the English method. I brew only lager and pils. What you are experiencing isn't abnormal at two months, with OG in the area that it was at and considering the brewing method utilized.
Take a look at recipes for Lager on Weyermann's site. Weyermann and Best are the malsters to buy malt from, when it comes to Lager and Pils. Dingemanns produces great malt for Lager, as well. Crisp came out with an under modified Pils malt. I have used it and it is tough to work with. However, it produces a decent English Lager. I wouldn't recommend that you use it. If you are having conversion issues with high modified malt, most certainly, you will have the issue with Crisp EuroPils.
For all of the years that you have been brewing beer correctly, have you ever looked at a malt data sheet? It's the roadmap that directs the brewer on how he is going to have to work with the malt. As a brewer, it is not a bad idea to learn about the role enzymes play during the mashing procedure. As you learn more about brewing, you will be able to see why it can become a struggle for a brewer to produce a particular style of beer, when using a method that cannot really do it. Using a method, which hard presses a brewer to produce a certain style of beer, can lead to frustration and cause a brewer to shy away from attempting to brew the beer again.
Welcome to the Lager world....

 

[osagedr]

I brew only lager and pils.

What is the distinction between the two?