Picobrew Z

[Rynolee]

I have had my Picobrew Z1 for about 2 months now and just finished a second brewing session with poor OG and clarity. (Kolsh and Coconut Porter). I primarily brew on a half barrel rig and have tons of experience getting spot-on results but wanted a small system to test batches before ramping them up to scale; however, the Z1 appears to have an efficiency monster hiding inside it that worries me. I plan out my recipes in Beer Smith and transfer them over to the Pico Crafter Beta and in both sessions, I missed my OG by 10 and 19 points, respectively. Holy Sh*t!

I'm not giving up but want to understand where the miss is. Grain crush, amount and water is perfect. The only thing I can think of is a less than desired mash due to default settings and plan on tweaking the advanced settings to get better results. Both batches used the standard single-infusion mash, which is where I think the issue is.

These are my 2 advanced recipes in editor (so far):

Heat to Single Step Infusion Mash - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Single Step Infusion Mash - Mash - 154 degrees - 90 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 minutes
Mash Out - Mash - 168 Degrees - 20 minuets - Drain (8)
BOIL

-AND-

Heat to Dough In - Pass Through - 104 degrees - 0 Min
Dough In - Mash - 104 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Alpha - Pass Through - 145 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Alpha - 145 Degrees - 30 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Beta - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Beta - 154 Degrees - 60 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Out - 168 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
BOIL

Will these steps work in the way I intend them to work? Do you think my OG will be more accurate if basing it on 65% efficiency using these settings instead of the basic single-step?

 

[alestateyall]

I have had my Picobrew Z1 for about 2 months now and just finished a second brewing session with poor OG and clarity. (Kolsh and Coconut Porter). I primarily brew on a half barrel rig and have tons of experience getting spot-on results but wanted a small system to test batches before ramping them up to scale; however, the Z1 appears to have an efficiency monster hiding inside it that worries me. I plan out my recipes in Beer Smith and transfer them over to the Pico Crafter Beta and in both sessions, I missed my OG by 10 and 19 points, respectively. Holy Sh*t!

I'm not giving up but want to understand where the miss is. Grain crush, amount and water is perfect. The only thing I can think of is a less than desired mash due to default settings and plan on tweaking the advanced settings to get better results. Both batches used the standard single-infusion mash, which is where I think the issue is.

These are my 2 advanced recipes in editor (so far):

Heat to Single Step Infusion Mash - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Single Step Infusion Mash - Mash - 154 degrees - 90 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 minutes
Mash Out - Mash - 168 Degrees - 20 minuets - Drain (8)
BOIL

-AND-

Heat to Dough In - Pass Through - 104 degrees - 0 Min
Dough In - Mash - 104 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Alpha - Pass Through - 145 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Alpha - 145 Degrees - 30 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Beta - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Beta - 154 Degrees - 60 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Out - 168 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
BOIL

Will these steps work in the way I intend them to work? Do you think my OG will be more accurate if basing it on 65% efficiency using these settings instead of the basic single-step?

I get 63% efficiency using HEMS profile according to BeerSmith. I used Single Infusion with mashout once and for 61%. I have not used any other profiles. But, others have posted efficiencies in the low 50’s with straight single infusion.

 

[Brewfreedom]

Yup. Not regretting canceling it. Brew day on a full blown 20 gallon eherms is still insanely more reliable than my zymatic ever was. Wait until the new unproven heat exchangers start failing on these things. Have they bought any of the old zymatics back yet like they promised?

 

[trip150]

What was your ending volume compared to your target?
I missed my target gravity on my last brew because i ended up with nearly 0.5 gallons of extra wort.
All of my input measurements were spot on, but the spent grain was really dry at the end of the brew cycle.
The 0.5 gallons of extra wort calculates to the exact amount i missed my OG.

I have had my Picobrew Z1 for about 2 months now and just finished a second brewing session with poor OG and clarity. (Kolsh and Coconut Porter). I primarily brew on a half barrel rig and have tons of experience getting spot-on results but wanted a small system to test batches before ramping them up to scale; however, the Z1 appears to have an efficiency monster hiding inside it that worries me. I plan out my recipes in Beer Smith and transfer them over to the Pico Crafter Beta and in both sessions, I missed my OG by 10 and 19 points, respectively. Holy Sh*t!

I'm not giving up but want to understand where the miss is. Grain crush, amount and water is perfect. The only thing I can think of is a less than desired mash due to default settings and plan on tweaking the advanced settings to get better results. Both batches used the standard single-infusion mash, which is where I think the issue is.

These are my 2 advanced recipes in editor (so far):

Heat to Single Step Infusion Mash - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Single Step Infusion Mash - Mash - 154 degrees - 90 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 minutes
Mash Out - Mash - 168 Degrees - 20 minuets - Drain (8)
BOIL

-AND-

Heat to Dough In - Pass Through - 104 degrees - 0 Min
Dough In - Mash - 104 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Alpha - Pass Through - 145 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Alpha - 145 Degrees - 30 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Beta - Pass Through - 154 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Beta - 154 Degrees - 60 minutes - Drain (8)
Heat to Mash Out - Pass Through - 168 degrees - 0 Min
Mash Out - 168 Degrees - 20 minutes - Drain (8)
BOIL

Will these steps work in the way I intend them to work? Do you think my OG will be more accurate if basing it on 65% efficiency using these settings instead of the basic single-step?

 

[Mike Howard]

Basically you can't stir your grains and you are leaving it up to resistance for the wort to find the best path through the grain bed. You aren't going to get much better than ~60%-70% so you'll have to live with it. What I find is that using no more than about 5 lbs of grain, adding a lot of rice hulls and doing double batches is a much better method...talking Zymatic here, but they didn't do any improvements to the step filter or how wort moves through the grain bed.

 

[cheesemonster]

Yup. Not regretting canceling it. Brew day on a full blown 20 gallon eherms is still insanely more reliable than my zymatic ever was. Wait until the new unproven heat exchangers start failing on these things. Have they bought any of the old zymatics back yet like they promised?

No they haven't honored their buyback yet. It is now > 1.5 years since I paid them originally

 

[Mutant]

So when do we ship back the Zymatic for $600? It is approaching two years since the Zs were ordered

 

[cheesemonster]

So when do we ship back the Zymatic for $600? It is approaching two years since the Zs were ordered

I've asked them several times and I always get the same response that they are "finalizing the details" I mean they always answer promptly and politely but I think they didn't consider the logistics or cost of this when they offered it. It is going to be hard for a small company to suddenly start paying out $600 to hundreds (maybe 1000s) of people. For me, I would not have bought the unit without that deal, and also I have a Zymatic sitting around taking up space.

 

[ListerH]

What was your ending volume compared to your target?
I missed my target gravity on my last brew because i ended up with nearly 0.5 gallons of extra wort.
All of my input measurements were spot on, but the spent grain was really dry at the end of the brew cycle.
The 0.5 gallons of extra wort calculates to the exact amount i missed my OG.

Do you brew with the keg seal on the corny? My first couple of batches, I did and was not getting enough evaporation and ending up with about half a gallon too much wort. Since then, I have removed it and been just about right.

In terms of efficiencies, I'm hitting around 60% when I do a single infusion mash and around 70% when I step mash. I am pretty consistently doing 90 minute mashes now whereas before on my old system, i'd get those efficiency numbers from a shorter mash.

The thing the Z gives me is real consistency which I like and the trade off is the lower efficiencies which I just have to take into account when building my recipes.

 

[doublea]

Just got the rebate email. Pleasantly surprised you don't need to ship the entire thing back (you just send the control board). Still need to read more but...

$600 check, $700 gift card or option to buy another Z1 for $499.

 

[cheesemonster]

Just got the rebate email. Pleasantly surprised you don't need to ship the entire thing back (you just send the control board). Still need to read more but...

$600 check, $700 gift card or option to buy another Z1 for $499.

Yeah I did last night too. They just want the main board sent back which means they are burying the machines pretty much as expected. This is pretty good of them as they have supported the Zymatic fully for 5 years, and obviously learned some things from it. You have to agree to recycle/destroy and not sell the rest of the machine. I'm glad they delivered on this. If I were them I'd make the additional Z1 deal a little sweeter. If they had more people take it for a bit cheaper they'd save $$$.

In general PicoBrew has been a good company standing by their products. Albeit over promising some things as far as timescales. With the rebate and my Z2 I am satisfied

 

[cheesemonster]

Do you brew with the keg seal on the corny? My first couple of batches, I did and was not getting enough evaporation and ending up with about half a gallon too much wort. Since then, I have removed it and been just about right.

In terms of efficiencies, I'm hitting around 60% when I do a single infusion mash and around 70% when I step mash. I am pretty consistently doing 90 minute mashes now whereas before on my old system, i'd get those efficiency numbers from a shorter mash.

The thing the Z gives me is real consistency which I like and the trade off is the lower efficiencies which I just have to take into account when building my recipes.

I usually run without the seal, and also the evaporation makes it come closer to the projected OG. Most of my brews don't foam very much and if they do it is only during the mashout phase. Yes the lower efficiency is a part of brewing with this but grain is really cheap and as you said consistency is well worth that. With hops if I have something that calls for a bunch of one hop in one cage, I put them in 2 and change it in advanced editor to increase hop extraction. If it is a new recipe I usually put a little less water than what the calculator calls for. It is always easier to hit OG target by adding a bit of water during the boil than having to steam it off or worse add extract. I'd rather come in higher.

 

[alestateyall]

Dry grain in the step filter this morning. Not too pleased. 1030 SG when expecting 1050. I am going to try a 1070 batch a mix the two. Fingers crossed.

 

[Anyhowe]

Dry grain in the step filter this morning. Not too pleased. 1030 SG when expecting 1050. I am going to try a 1070 batch a mix the two. Fingers crossed.

View attachment 646173

Wow. That looks nearly impossible in a plastic bucket filled with recirculating hot water for 90 minutes. But there it is. Did you have the drain plug in the back of the step filter that separates the grain from the hops installed?

 

[alestateyall]

Wow. That looks nearly impossible in a plastic bucket filled with recirculating hot water for 90 minutes. But there it is. Did you have the drain plug in the back of the step filter that separates the grain from the hops installed?

Yes. The drain plug was installed.

I did a deep clean and now am brewing a second batch. It is having the same problem. I don’t know what is happening.

This time I stopped after dough in at beginning the of mash 1 and poured the keg contents onto the mash the stirred. That got everything wet but it seems like the mash compartment went back to nearly empty shortly after. It’s like it’s draining too fast. I see but being added but the volume of wort seems low.

 

[Buck*49]

Yes. The drain plug was installed.

I did a deep clean and now am brewing a second batch. It is having the same problem. I don’t know what is happening.

This time I stopped after dough in at beginning the of mash 1 and poured the keg contents onto the mash the stirred. That got everything wet but it seems like the mash compartment went back to nearly empty shortly after. It’s like it’s draining too fast. I see but being added but the volume of wort seems low.

I would check liquid dip tube, quick connect post, and ball lock connector for contaminants. It may not be that it is draining too quickly but rather insufficient flow due to restriction. Restriction may not be enough to trigger any alarms.

This link on PicoBrew users forum talks about updated software that includes a flow check test prior to brewing that may be helpful:
https://www.picobrew.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=3776

 

[cheesemonster]

I'd check the black inline filter too. As Buck said, the keg posts or connectors can sometimes get stuff in them and lessen flow. You can remove the top of the connectors with a flat head screwdriver. There's almost always stuff in there. The normal operation of the machine is the grain portion completely full and overflowing off the back towards the hop cages. It should get to this state in ~5-10 mins, and stay that way until it drains. So if that isn't happening you either have the plug not in where it is draining too fast, or you have a flow impediment.

 

[alestateyall]

I'd check the black inline filter too. As Buck said, the keg posts or connectors can sometimes get stuff in them and lessen flow. You can remove the top of the connectors with a flat head screwdriver. There's almost always stuff in there. The normal operation of the machine is the grain portion completely full and overflowing off the back towards the hop cages. It should get to this state in ~5-10 mins, and stay that way until it drains. So if that isn't happening you either have the plug not in where it is draining too fast, or you have a flow impediment.

Yesterday I did a deep clean and then tried to brew again. The deep clean seemed to go fine.

The next brew did not. I had the same problem where during the first two mash steps most of the grain was dry. I ended up dumping the grains into my Grainfather and finishing the brew there.

Afterwords, I rinsed the step filter and screens. When I put the step filter back into the Z I could not get any flow. The rinse cycle doesn’t work and the recirculate cycle doesn’t work.

I am not sure what is going on.

The inline filter is clean. The QD’s and the keg posts are clean. The dip tube in the keg is clean.

I have tried with the poppets, springs, and QD internals installed and not installed. I have them installed right now. I plan to uninstall those pieces again tonight and try the rinse and circulate cycles again. Maybe I messed something up reinstalling them. I was really tired last night.

 

[Denny]

Basically you can't stir your grains and you are leaving it up to resistance for the wort to find the best path through the grain bed. You aren't going to get much better than ~60%-70% so you'll have to live with it. What I find is that using no more than about 5 lbs of grain, adding a lot of rice hulls and doing double batches is a much better method...talking Zymatic here, but they didn't do any improvements to the step filter or how wort moves through the grain bed.

Yes, they did

 

[Buck*49]

Yesterday I did a deep clean and then tried to brew again. The deep clean seemed to go fine.

The next brew did not. I had the same problem where during the first two mash steps most of the grain was dry. I ended up dumping the grains into my Grainfather and finishing the brew there.

Afterwords, I rinsed the step filter and screens. When I put the step filter back into the Z I could not get any flow. The rinse cycle doesn’t work and the recirculate cycle doesn’t work.

I am not sure what is going on.

The inline filter is clean. The QD’s and the keg posts are clean. The dip tube in the keg is clean.

I have tried with the poppets, springs, and QD internals installed and not installed. I have them installed right now. I plan to uninstall those pieces again tonight and try the rinse and circulate cycles again. Maybe I messed something up reinstalling them. I was really tired last night.

Suggest measuring flow rate with and without qd/keg post internal poppets and springs with a large graduated measuring cup and stopwatch, then create a support ticket regarding your issue supplying them with flow rate info. While performing flowrate test would look for aeration which could indicate loose connection allowing pump to suck air.
Would also disassemble and inspect drain valve in bottom of step filer for integrity.

 

[alestateyall]

Suggest measuring flow rate with and without qd/keg post internal poppets and springs with a large graduated measuring cup and stopwatch, then create a support ticket regarding your issue supplying them with flow rate info. While performing flowrate test would look for aeration which could indicate loose connection allowing pump to suck air.
Would also disassemble and inspect drain valve in bottom of step filer for integrity.

My flow rate is zero both ways.

I submitted a ticket. I think one of my pumps died. I think it may have been limping earlier in the day and now it is completely dead. Not sure but that is what I think.

 

[Buck*49]

My flow rate is zero both ways.

I submitted a ticket. I think one of my pumps died. I think it may have been limping earlier in the day and now it is completely dead. Not sure but that is what I think.

From your description I agree

 

[Mike Howard]

Yes, they did

Can you elaborate? I've seen the Z step filters and the internal guts. Looks like the same process to me. Are you telling me you can stir your grains in the new Z while its operating? If not, my statement is still spot on.

And we are talking process here, not parts, which is directly tied to the efficiency.

 

[Denny]

Can you elaborate? I've seen the Z step filters and the internal guts. Looks like the same process to me. Are you telling me you can stir your grains in the new Z while its operating? If not, my statement is still spot on.

And we are talking process here, not parts, which is directly tied to the efficiency.

The parts are as much tied to efficiency. If you wanted to, you could program a drain and pause and stir the grain bed. But with the new pump and step filter design I can't imagine why you would.

 

[Mike Howard]

The parts are as much tied to efficiency. If you wanted to, you could program a drain and pause and stir the grain bed. But with the new pump and step filter design I can't imagine why you would.

"The parts are as much tied to efficiency." I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. It's not like they changed a whole helluva lot between the Zymatic and the Z. It still operates pretty much the same way. There is still a step filter and separate hop cages. I don't think the new HEX or the spider valve is going to change any of the process. I don't see any real process change between the two systems, so there can't be a great amount of efficiency differences.

"you could program a drain and pause and stir the grain bed". Yea, I could do that on the Zymatic if I wanted as well.

In the end, the two systems operating untouched are pretty much the same and you won't get a lot of efficiency. It's what was intended in my opionion. I think the goal was ease of use and a pretty much hands off system. So I still stand behind my original comment of "they didn't do any improvements to the step filter or how wort moves through the grain bed". And by "any" I mean much. I'm not into playing semantics.

You are gonna have to live with the low efficiency, as that is the trade off.

 

[Denny]

"The parts are as much tied to efficiency." I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. It's not like they changed a whole helluva lot between the Zymatic and the Z. It still operates pretty much the same way. There is still a step filter and separate hop cages. I don't think the new HEX or the spider valve is going to change any of the process. I don't see any real process change between the two systems, so there can't be a great amount of efficiency differences.

"you could program a drain and pause and stir the grain bed". Yea, I could do that on the Zymatic if I wanted as well.

In the end, the two systems operating untouched are pretty much the same and you won't get a lot of efficiency. It's what was intended in my opionion. I think the goal was ease of use and a pretty much hands off system. So I still stand behind my original comment of "they didn't do any improvements to the step filter or how wort moves through the grain bed". And by "any" I mean much. I'm not into playing semantics.

You are gonna have to live with the low efficiency, as that is the trade off.

Have you used both a Zymatic and a Z? There's a world of difference.

 

[Mike Howard]

Have you used both a Zymatic and a Z? There's a world of difference.

I have not. I cancelled my Z2 order and got a BrewBoss 20 gallon instead. Way better unit in my opinion and mostly hands off or hands on however you like, plus its all stainless with no plastic parts and a breeze to clean. The software is spot on and allows me complete control of everything you could possibly want.

With that said, I still don't think there is that much difference between the two Z's. Hell, they even still look the same. Its like the difference between car models. Yea one might be a little more smooth and rounded, maybe some upgraded electronics and parts, but under the covers, you still have a steering wheel, gas pedal and a brake pedal.

From what I've seen, the fluid still flows into a static chamber and you are left with physics to get the liquid around the grains. Maybe I'm missing something here, because I don't have a Z series, but from the comments and the pics I have seen, I'm not so sure there is a "world of difference", more like a slight difference.

But hey, I'm all ears if you can tell me how they are actually so different and how the brewing process is so much better.

 

[Denny]

I have not. I cancelled my Z2 order and got a BrewBoss 20 gallon instead. Way better unit in my opinion and mostly hands off or hands on however you like, plus its all stainless with no plastic parts and a breeze to clean. The software is spot on and allows me complete control of everything you could possibly want.

With that said, I still don't think there is that much difference between the two Z's. Hell, they even still look the same. Its like the difference between car models. Yea one might be a little more smooth and rounded, maybe some upgraded electronics and parts, but under the covers, you still have a steering wheel, gas pedal and a brake pedal.

From what I've seen, the fluid still flows into a static chamber and you are left with physics to get the liquid around the grains. Maybe I'm missing something here, because I don't have a Z series, but from the comments and the pics I have seen, I'm not so sure there is a "world of difference", more like a slight difference.

But hey, I'm all ears if you can tell me how they are actually so different and how the brewing process is so much better.

I don't have the time nor interest. You can do the research yourself. I can tell you the Z is much quieter, the wifi is more solid, there are no dry spots in the grain bed, there seems to be less O2 pickup and the beer seems to be better. Had you used them both, you'd know. Since you haven't, you might want to listen to someone who has rather than make unfounded conjectures.

 

[Denny]

Sorry for the tone of that. I'm doing about 8 things at once so I wasn't as diplomatic as I should have been. My point stands, though.

 

[Mike Howard]

Well, since you don't have the time nor the interest, I'll take whatever you say with a grain of salt. My point is valid and since you don't care enough to elaborate we'll just leave it at that.

PS: These things have nothing to do with efficiency FYI " the Z is much quieter, the wifi is more solid" and saying "there seems to be less O2 pickup and the beer seems to be better" isn't really factual now is it. If you ever "get time" would love to hear how the new Z is so much more efficient than the Zymatic and what you think they have done to make the PROCESS better.

 

[jcaiola]

Time for a showdown of sorts. Maybe compare efficiency of same recipes, etc.

 

[Mike Howard]

Hell ya. Now we're talking. WOuld also love a shot of the two step filters side by side.

 

[jcaiola]

Will do.

 

[jcaiola]

 

[Anyhowe]

Time for a showdown of sorts. Maybe compare efficiency of same recipes, etc. View attachment 647364

Very cool.
.
Would love reports on ‘grind-to-cleanup’ or ‘brew-to-tap’ ease and time invested for each unit. Efficiency, meh. It means so little to the small batch home brewer as a 1/2 pound or so of grain seems to make up for most anything. So while it is academically interesting, I don’t sweat $1 a batch. YMMV
.
This should be fun!! Thanks for sharing and taking the time to do this. Worthy of its own thread I would think.

 

[jcaiola]

True. The Brewies are 5G each and have the ability to stir during the mash which we found improves circulation through the grain. Could always stop and do that on the Picos, but that could get messy.

 

[Anyhowe]

True. The Brewies are 5G each and have the ability to stir during the mash which we found improves circulation through the grain. Could always stop and do that on the Picos, but that could get messy.

Interesting ‘benefit’. For me doing something else other than watching, adjusting, stirring, adding, etc is the big benni of the automatics. I love that my hands on real time brew days can’t be more than an hour grind to cleanup.

 

[jcaiola]

I agree. I have not used my kettle in more than a year (should put them up for sale).

Delayed start is probably my favorite function and one we pushed for with Brewie. (Company status is a different concern now). However, that component - on the Pico and the Brewie is great because you can start the process while you are sleeping or on the way home and be half-way or better done by the time you arrive. Huge game-changer - if you trust the equipment.

I’ve been successful doing that with both. The Brewie is connected to a filtered hose connection and feeds itself (calibrated by weight) as needed (e.g warming sparging water in separate tank as it mashes in the other and then circulates the completed boil tank with chilling-plate cooled water to drop the temp to pitch temp in about 25 mins.

The Pico’s keg-fed water method works obviously, but you would need to burst to a Z2 and additional kegs for 5gs, etc.

Automation gives you time back with your family - again, when everything works as expected. I’m hoping the Z ups the Zymatic reliability 100%. My last use of the Zymatic was two weeks ago and I had to suffer through five Error#1s until my starting water warmed enough to be heated properly. Did not have that with the Z as I ran an identical batch.

Lots to learn...

 

[alestateyall]

Does the inline filter housing have a rubber washer? Mine doesn’t but I am not sure if they’re used to be one or not.

My Z1 has problems. It is not pulling liquid from the keg correctly. For example, rinse cycles move very little water. Two recent brews only wet about half the malt in the step filter.

I measured the volume of water in the waste bucket and step filter after a rinse. There was 1.2 quarts and 0.5 quarts in the step filter and waste bucket respectively. I remember getting much more in both before this issue started.

I am working with Picobrew on this but we haven’t figured out the problem yet.

 

[stpauliboy]

Does the inline filter housing have a rubber washer? Mine doesn’t but I am not sure if they’re used to be one or not.

My Z1 has problems. It is not pulling liquid from the keg correctly. For example, rinse cycles move very little water. Two recent brews only wet about half the malt in the step filter.

I measured the volume of water in the waste bucket and step filter after a rinse. There was 1.2 quarts and 0.5 quarts in the step filter and waste bucket respectively. I remember getting much more in both before this issue started.

I am working with Picobrew on this but we haven’t figured out the problem yet.

My Z has a red gasket in the cap side of the inline filter.