Picobrew Z

[Brewfreedom]

Issue isn't cleaning the plastic; issue is cleaning non-plastic parts of the interior—especially the heat exchanger—without being able to use chemicals that would damage the plastic as they pass through.

Ive never had a zymatic step filter survive more than a dozen brews. That is with hand washing w warm water.

 

[Thorrak]

Ive never had a zymatic step filter survive more than a dozen brews. That is with hand washing w warm water.

The “wall” between the hop cages and the grain bin was the biggest design flaw the Zymatic had IMHO. It’s the #1 thing I’m hoping was fixed with the Z1.

 

[Anyhowe]

The “wall” between the hop cages and the grain bin was the biggest design flaw the Zymatic had IMHO. It’s the #1 thing I’m hoping was fixed with the Z1.

What do you want to see?

 

[alaric10000]

Ive never had a zymatic step filter survive more than a dozen brews. That is with hand washing w warm water.

Maybe they changed the composition? I'm at about 2 dozen plus a pretty aggressive cleaning schedule (the new beta cleaning recipe runs for quite a bit longer than the built-in one) and I don't have any crazing.

 

[Thorrak]

What do you want to see?

It not break.

 

[doublea]

If anyone else was worried about the Z2 and considering if they need to parallel machines, I did contact them about a switch to the Z1. Here's what I was told:

"If you wish to switch to a Z1, just let me know. The total price will drop by $500 + $100 for shipping, for a total refund of $600.

Please note that if you opt to upgrade back to a Z2, current pricing will apply (although I can certainly apply a discount to that, it won't be as good of a deal as you have now."

 

[Thorrak]

I got the email notification - apparently my Z1 shipped yesterday and should arrive at the end of next week. Looking forward to (finally) getting a chance to brew!

For reference, the most recent "shipping week" estimate I had received in the PicoBrew email was Mar 2nd.

 

[Mike Howard]

They didn't change the step filter to Stainless so it still has plastic toy parts...

 

[Trevor Mack]

This week's update contains info about the Z2+ side of the campaign. Yes is definitely just two Z1s stacked (or not stacked) depending on your need and requirements.

 

[doublea]

This week's update contains info about the Z2+ side of the campaign. Yes is definitely just two Z1s stacked (or not stacked) depending on your need and requirements.

Yes, interesting and glad they finally said something. This implies you can totally separate them? It's less clear if there is the spectrum of options is purely physical (stack, unstack) or if they work in any way together to brew a bigger batch.

 

[Goblism]

I am really curious if the units can be used completely separate from the z2 (acting as 2 z1s so to speak.)I have a close buddy has asked about borrowing the z2 when I get it for a few brews and wouldn't be too opposed to letting him borrow half for a while.

 

[Anyhowe]

I am really curious if the units can be used completely separate from the z2 (acting as 2 z1s so to speak.)I have a close buddy has asked about borrowing the z2 when I get it for a few brews and wouldn't be too opposed to letting him borrow half for a while.

I expect so. And they have a wonderful carrying handle on the back. It is portable.

 

[Mike Howard]

That is the worst engineering effort for a modular system I've seen in years...but it goes to show that PB doesn't have a whole lot of talent on the software/hardware side of things. Stacking Z1's for an upgrade...gimme a break. That is so lame. Unimpressed and a waste of money, IMO.

 

[jcaiola]

That is the worst engineering effort for a modular system I've seen in years...but it goes to show that PB doesn't have a whole lot of talent on the software/hardware side of things. Stacking Z1's for an upgrade...gimme a break. That is so lame. Unimpressed and a waste of money, IMO.

Does it represent overall just two Z1s? I mean there’s no relationship between one and the other? Would they be under he same serial number at Pico, same account. I remain confused.

 

[Anyhowe]

Does it represent overall just two Z1s? I mean there’s no relationship between one and the other? Would they be under he same serial number at Pico, same account. I remain confused.

Patience is likely the best route to avoid confusion and speciation, like : I assume they will be individual units with separate numbers etc. They can both create independent beers at the same time and Picos keg-smarts systems will need to be able to to distinguish between units for the individual fermentation profiles. But what do I know.

 

[Anyhowe]

Oooh I forgot about this stuff. Email from Pico on Kickstarter swag etc based on my purchase on Kickstarter. Others may have different stuff.

▪ Launch Day Machine Badge
▪ Launch Day Keg Cozy
▪ Z Series T-shirt
▪ Cold Brew Coffee Pak (will ship as coupon)
▪ Jack's Ass English IPA PicoPak
▪ PicoFerm
▪ Stargazer IPA ZPak (will ship as coupon)

 

[Thorrak]

I didn’t remember the Stargazer IPA from the Kickstarter. What’s a ZPak?

 

[Anyhowe]

I didn’t remember the Stargazer IPA from the Kickstarter. What’s a ZPak?

It is a grown up pico pack big enough to work in the Z. So if one wants they can just slip in a complete pack and push start. The packs are clones of beers from all over. And I assume we will be able to craft our in zpac recipes

 

[CheekiTiki]

Oooh I forgot about this stuff. Email from Pico on Kickstarter swag etc based on my purchase on Kickstarter. Others may have different stuff.

▪ Launch Day Machine Badge
▪ Launch Day Keg Cozy
▪ Z Series T-shirt
▪ Cold Brew Coffee Pak (will ship as coupon)
▪ Jack's Ass English IPA PicoPak
▪ PicoFerm
▪ Stargazer IPA ZPak (will ship as coupon)

This is Launch Day swag, not Kickstarter related. It was for the first 500 orders if I remember correctly.

 

[Goblism]

I asked about using the units separately, such as letting a friend use one of the units. Here is most of the response from Kevin

Initially, the plan with the Z2-4 was to have a Master/Slave config where all connected units would be controlled through a single interface, and a 240V power supply in the head unit would distribute power to the other units.

Someone realized from a manufacturing standpoint, it's much simpler to build, manage, and track one type of machine (technically two considering international 220/240V models) rather than two types (again, technically three), and only moderately more expensive to have an interface on all units rather than just the controller/head/master/whatever you want to call it.

There's also the issue of someone having a 110V Z1 that may need to be upgraded to a 240V later if someone wants to expand their system.

So, as it stands currently, all domestic Zs are technically a 110V, but in the case of Z2-4s, a 240V power supply is being split to multiple 110Vs as most standard 110V circuits won't be able to handle the draw of more than one machine.

Each unit can be controlled individually, and will have its own WiFi or Ethernet connection to the AP, however one of the planned firmware updates will allow a batch to be started on one unit, and have it so that the recipe program pops up on other units so that the user has to navigate a ton less to start a session if the same recipe is being run across multiple units.

In regards to loaning it to a friend, it will be able to operate individually as a Z1, however, because it is associated to your account, they would need to be given your account credentials in order to interface with the machine, so I'd make sure that it's someone you trust

 

[Goblism]

Now I only have 2 weeks to decide to switch to the Brewie with cooling features or continue with my z2 (or now really 2 z1s)

 

[Anyhowe]

Now I only have 2 weeks to decide to switch to the Brewie with cooling features or continue with my z2 (or now really 2 z1s)

Crap now the machine is getting here too fast. Lol, and just kidding. I read a lot of comments about cooling. Idk I drop my pillar in there and it is done in 5 minutes. YMMV but for all the differences of the machines that one is not one of my biggies.

 

[Anyhowe]

In regards to loaning it to a friend, it will be able to operate individually as a Z1, however, because it is associated to your account, they would need to be given your account credentials in order to interface with the machine, so I'd make sure that it's someone you trust

The portability is a whole new cool concept that they should have marketed. It’s easy to pick up and go. I can take it to a friends or take it to the LHB store for brew day socials. Etc. interesting at least.

 

[Mike Howard]

Like I said....someone figured out that actually it is really hard to design a modular machine with very complicated software. And since they don't have that expertise, the fall back was to ship out a bunch of Z1's...egads my man.

"one of the planned firmware updates "....this will never happen. Been waiting on firmware updates, web updates, etc... for years.

 

[Anyhowe]

The new heat loop is awesome. This is a shot of the mash.

 

[doublea]

More on the power:

Now I only have 2 weeks to decide to switch to the Brewie with cooling features or continue with my z2 (or now really 2 z1s)

Are you just saying cooling is an attractive feature of the Brewie? With a copper coil cooling system I can cook a Zymatic keg down in just a few minutes, so I'm not sure that's a make or break decision. I'd say the cooling, water integration and true 5 gallon capacity should be more important decision points.

I also got this additional info from emailing them:
"Each Z module will have a 110v power cord, with an adapter for 220v that can be used to power both simultaneously."

 

[Mike Howard]

It seems the Brewie+, from what everyone says, is the most complete AIO Brewing unit. The jury is still out on which is better and IMO, will come down to personal preferences.

The Z1 is a Zymatic for intents and purposes and we all know what kind of issues they have. My guess is the Z1 will be slightly easier to get into, but a whole lot more complicated to fix. And with the new wort distribution system, you may not be able to outsource those parts.

What intrigues me about the Brewie is the engineering effort that went into it...not so much for the Z series now that the cat is out of the bag about the stacking....

 

[Thorrak]

What intrigues me about the Brewie is the engineering effort that went into it...not so much for the Z series now that the cat is out of the bag about the stacking....

I’m waiting for that engineering effort to burn someone’s house down.

 

[Mike Howard]

Didn't say it was perfect and was more pointing out the effort....but wait until your Z burns up. I posted photos earlier about the heating unit that nearly caught fire in my Zymatic. Apples to Apples if you ask me.

 

[cheesemonster]

Anyone get any details about the zymatic trade in rebate? Anyone successfully do it yet? Getting that money off was a huge factor in my purchase, and I hope that is still on.

As far as the Brewie vs this... For all the faults of PicoBrew sometimes, they at least stand by their product. I was about to cancel but to me the only other option was to make a RIMS system and I figured I might do that some other day. When they were yanking our chains with the release date I did indeed contact them to cancel. They offered me some stuff to stay but I didn't want that. I wanted straight answers. And then that weekend they did. With the cost and good support PicoBrew gives it is good to have a turnkey solution. Brewie has had some really bad problems and support issues that scared me off.

I was really disappointed at first to learn that 5g batch meant 2x kegs and 2x step filters to clean. But with that given I am actually happier that it is then 2 Z1's stacked rather than shared components like heaters. That means that if I have a problem with one I can still brew on another. I don't see how it would be superior to combine the units when they still need 2x kegs and step filters.

 

[Mike Howard]

Having multiple Z1's to make up a modular system is a joke....I guess if you think that is a "great way to implement an upgradeable system, then brew on".

Having one brain unit that manages the entire brewing process means that data between the two units is easily collected and all in one place. This gives the benefit of being able to perform on-the-fly comparative analysis, if you desire. One data connection. One point of entry. One place to select/maintain/modify recipes. One place to upgrade firmware. Quicker start up time. No manual syncing of components. Easier to ship if there is a problem. Easier to remote into. Allows for incremental upgrades. The list goes on... Basically, all of the benefits you get from any modular design approach.

I don't think picobrew ever mentioned shared components. What they led everyone to believe was that you essentially had a Z1 with an add-on pump/step filter base to make up the Z2, Z3 and Z4. Less cost overall to just add another pump base. They never advertised that you were simply going to get multiple Z1's to stack. All of their marketing material showed a brain and multiple pump units.

I don't think anyone with any kind of engineering background really believes that stacking Z1's is considered a modular system that required any kind of development expertise. Hey you want double ovens...just buy another one and set it on top....lol.

 

[cheesemonster]

Having one brain unit that manages the entire brewing process means that data between the two units is easily collected and all in one place. This gives the benefit of being able to perform on-the-fly comparative analysis, if you desire. One data connection. One point of entry. One place to select/maintain/modify recipes. This gives the benefit of being able to perform on-the-fly comparative analysis, if you desire. One data connection. One point of entry. One place to select/maintain/modify recipes. One place to upgrade firmware. Quicker start up time. No manual syncing of components.

True but there is one place this information is going really.... It is their servers. So the information is collected in one place. They can easily do whatever they want with the info and unify it there. I don't see anything wrong with 2 controller boards sending information back. I am a software developer and heavily into 3d printing which uses similar SOC based boards. If anything this just costs them more money. Also when something goes wrong on these integrated boards it is usually some stepper controller or MOSFET. So having 2 boards spreads the risk. Maybe I will have to select 2x recipes. I will trade that for optional independent working units. To me this isn't as much of an issue compared to cleaning 2 step filters and kegs when it could have been 1.

Being able to separate the units is still a plus for me, and at least offers me 50% capacity in the event of one having a problem. So again if it is going to behave like a double oven with the bays and cleaning associated then yes I'd rather have 2 single ovens with the second one 60% cheaper. Overall using the oven analogy I'd just rather have one big oven.

Easier to ship if there is a problem. Easier to remote into. Allows for incremental upgrades. The list goes on... Basically, all of the benefits you get from any modular design approach.

I disagree that it is easier to ship one big unit vs 1/2 big unit. I don't recall being able to SSH into my Zymatic nor am I really interested in doing so so I don't care about the 2 NICs. Also making 5 gallons is enough for me. the way this is designed there is no way I'd want to clean and deal with more kegs and step filters. So don't care about the upgrades either.

Hey you want double ovens...just buy another one and set it on top....lol.
Yeah this is true but whatever. I will take 2 Z1's for the price I paid provided the Zymatic trade in gives me $600 back (I bought my Zymatic for $1000 so not bad). I have agreed with you many times and have had similar complaints about the sustainability of the Zymatic, and the BS timescales they gave us. But yeah I get it you really, really don't like them So pick up a Brewie +. I'm not some PicoBrew apologist as you can see if you take a look at my past posts. I am just saying that I don't really think that it is a big deal the way this is.

 

[ldaniels]

It is all a matter of what you are looking for. I have not been on this thread for a few weeks but the configuration that I indicated that I was hoping for back then is exactly what I will be getting. My 40 years of hardware and software engineering thinks this is a great configuration with the potential of being even better if they follow through with the integration that makes it easier to manage two identical brews when a larger batch is desired. My goal is to do lots of small batches with a few 4 or 5 gallon batches when I want that. If your goal is to brew 5 gallon batches all the time, the Z may not make sense for you.

The only extra part that we are talking about in the final configuration is the controller board, probably costs about the same as a Raspberry Pi. everything else was going to be redundant anyway because the liquids were never going to flow between the units. They said that the two halves of a Z2 could simultaneously brew different beers from the very beginning which is awesome. That one capability says that the only part that could be removed from the configuration of a z2 is one controller, cost savings <$50.

In exchange for that cost savings they would have had to manage two different configurations of the pump unit, one with and one without the controller. The wiring harness for the sensors and actuators from both units would have to be different so they could reach the one controller instead of the one that is right along side the mechanicals in a Z1. They also would have taken on the development and overhead of maintaining the more complex software to control from 2 to 4 units simultaneously.

And most importantly to me, I would have been stuck with a more complicated machine that would totally break when one controller is having an issue rather than having the risk limited to one of the Zs.

I am thrilled that PicoBrew thought through this configuration before going too far down the wrong path. I praise their engineers for a job well done and look forward to getting my Z2!

 

[Mike Howard]

LOL, not saying you are a pico fanboy cheesemonster, I am well aware of your posts. But to say I really don't like them is a bit much...I don't like CERTAIN aspects for sure and will definitley call it out like I see it.

IMO they fell short on the modular aspect, after all of the marketing and hype. It's why I initially jumped on board with the Z2. However, I don't want two Z1's...YMMV. To me that's a cop out on the engineering and was never what was portrayed. PB has always had a way about keeping everyone in the dark.

Not in the market for a Brewie either...I bought the BrewBoss 20 gallon for less than I invested in the Z2. Better system overall, IMO.

 

[Mike Howard]

ldaniels...not so sure about that. In all of my years working in semiconductors, a modular system always outperforms a single standalone unit. And it is way more cost effective, much more so than you indicate.

Basically you have one controller module, probably 4 inches thick that houses all of the electronics. Then you have identical pump bases which can be mass produced at dirt cheap. QA/QC is a breeze in these cases. I could go on, but its easy enough for anyone to google how modular systems are actually better, cheaper and more sustainable.

It's all a matter of opinion and I'm not trying to change anyones mind...its a forum. Folks have opinions. I think everyone on board with the Z2 and up got duped. My opinion.

 

[cheesemonster]

LOL, not saying you are a pico fanboy cheesemonster, I am well aware of your posts. But to say I really don't like them is a bit much...I don't like CERTAIN aspects for sure and will definitley call it out like I see it.

IMO they fell short on the modular aspect, after all of the marketing and hype. It's why I initially jumped on board with the Z2. However, I don't want two Z1's...YMMV. To me that's a cop out on the engineering and was never what was portrayed. PB has always had a way about keeping everyone in the dark.

Not in the market for a Brewie either...I bought the BrewBoss 20 gallon for less than I invested in the Z2. Better system overall, IMO.

Yeah I am going to do a similar system one day it was just that for the price I paid and since they came out with hard shipping dates I'd give the Z a go. For fully automated brewing I just stuck with PicoBrew despite the shortcomings of the Zymatic. There isn't a better option. So for ~$1300 with shipping and my trade in, I get basically 2 Zymatic 2.0's. The Zymatic when it worked made great wort. Their support has been very good. I was on the same thread as you complaining on their forums how the HEX is not sustainable in the Zymatic due to the glycol not being able to be topped off without massive disassembly and removal of the heating coil. My Zymatic had cracked step filters, air bubbled glycol loop, and the fluid arm would get stuck. I used to work on biomedical analyzers that were similar in design. So yeah they weren't happy with analysis and disassembly of their machine. I don't like that. I trust that they resolved those issues as I think they lost a ton of money keeping goodwill supporting the Zymatic forever, and don't want to have to do that again. They said they made the parts more replaceable too which is good.

I don't mind the 2 Z setup as much because like I said the combined unit still was essentially that too. As ldaniels said that would mean more complicated wiring, and a bigger more complicated board. Also more programming. The only benefit I see with that is that you have one display and physical controller. Starting the machine and selecting my recipe is the least time consuming part of my brews trust me The analytics and stuff can still be tracked on my phone via their web app in a unified place.

 

[Mike Howard]

Just FYI, I have developed a pretty robust glycol top off procedure that's been used by a number of Zymatic owners and at least one guy has made a very decent glycol port on the side of his Zymatic, which makes disassembly no longer an issue. And now that we pretty much have a source for every component in the Zymatic, it's a snap to keep running.

I'll be impressed the first time something goes seriously wrong with a Z1/2 and Picobrew actually allows someone to replace a heating coil, pump or other major component...I don't see that happening. but who knows...I've been wrong before.

 

[Thorrak]

WELP.

My Z arrived today - except that they forgot a bunch of parts which means that it's unusable. Especially frustrating since I have vacation days booked next week specifically to brew.

Apparently this is an issue with most of the Z's that shipped last week - an email is supposed to be forthcoming.

 

[Anyhowe]

WELP.

My Z arrived today - except that they forgot a bunch of parts which means that it's unusable. Especially frustrating since I have vacation days booked next week specifically to brew.

Apparently this is an issue with most of the Z's that shipped last week - an email is supposed to be forthcoming.

Interesting mine came complete. 2 boxes. One cpu the other step filter etc. What was missing.

 

[Thorrak]

Interesting mine came complete. 2 boxes. One cpu the other step filter etc. What was missing.

• Assembly Screws
• Screwdriver
• Step filter plug (what are these, anyways?)
• Drain tube
• Drain tube grommet
• Syringe
• Bottle of anti-foam
• Fast fermentation adapter
• Dishwasher tablet