Persistent infection nightmare

[beergolf]

Looks like the satart of an infection.. I know a lot of people here like to claim it is lacto, but from the look of a pelicle you really cannot identify what it is. The only way to know for sure what it is to look at it under a microscope.

I had brett beers start off looking like that.

 

[Davrosh]

I suppose it's not out of the question that my dry hopping technique could lead to an infection, but I don't think I'm being sloppy. I do sanitise the lid, but not every time I open it. Maybe I should.

I don't use extract. I chill with a copper coil that I submerge at least 20 minutes from the end of the boil. I'd be surprised if that were the cause.

I think it could be picking up when I rack to the fermenter. I have a buffalo boiler with a ball valve tap, attached to a bendy copper pipe with holes drilled in as a hop filter.

The end of the tap has about an inch of copper piping, which I attach an elbow and another length of copper pipe to for transferring. I sanitise this by submerging in starsan. I'm going to start boiling it rather than starsaning. I always run a few litres of boiling wort through the tap about ten minutes from the end of the boil as well.

I transfer through a strainer and sieve which are submerged in starsan to sanitise. Maybe these could harbour something. This aerates to a degree, but I also aerate with a starsanned paddle (which I am going to replace).

 

[ArcLight]

Davrosh,

2 things:

Part 1 -
The most important question is what is all your equipment?
Do you have plastic fermentors, such as buckets?
A plastic bottling bucket?

You could try using Iodophor instead of Star San.
You could even mix a batch of Chlorine (1 ounce of Chorine Bleach into a gallon, then add one ounce of Vinegar to lower the pH to generate HypoChloric Acid - which is the killing agent).

However - it's difficult if not impossible to sterilize this equipment. The bacteria tend to live in biofilms which are protective, and resistant to sanitizing agents. Hospitals have problems cleaining equipment and they use stronger stuff than we do.


Your time is worth something so try this.
Buy a new Bottling Bucket, Fermenting bucket, Auto siphon & tubing, plastic stirring spoon.
Don't reuse anything other than glass, which you should boil.

Part 2 -
The other thing is where do you ferment, open your fermentor for readings, racking, dry hopping, etc.
For example , don't grind grain near where you ferment.
If you get lacto laden grain particles lying around, they are easily roused into the air.

Can you open your fermentors in a different location? As a test, do so in a different place like a bathroom or outdoors.

 

[beergolf]

I suppose it's not out of the question that my dry hopping technique could lead to an infection, but I don't think I'm being sloppy. I do sanitise the lid, but not every time I open it. Maybe I should.

Get a spray bottle and keep it full of Starsan. Then just spray all around the lid each time you open it. Drop your hops in and close it up as quickly as you can. That should reduce the risk.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sieves and strainers with woven wires can trap bugs between the wires, where they touch. Then there's the rim area, a wonderful bug trap. Those are notoriously hard to sanitize with surface sanitizers.

That paddle you're aerating with, that isn't the same as you use for your mash, is it? Unless it's sanitary welded SS.

 

[Davrosh]

Sieves and strainers with woven wires can trap bugs between the wires, where they touch. Then there's the rim area, a wonderful bug trap. Those are notoriously hard to sanitize with surface sanitizers.

That paddle you're aerating with, that isn't the same as you use for your mash, is it? Unless it's sanitary welded SS.

I use a separate paddle to mash.

Maybe the strainer and sieve need to go. I can live with a bit more trub and hop slurry in my beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

If everything that's on the hot side reaches around 100°C for some time, and the cold side is all cleaned and sanitized properly, including your valves, copper, silicone, and vinyl tubing, sieves, strainers, fermentors, lids, grommets, airlocks, paddles, whisks, aeration equipment, spigots, etc. there should be little risk of infection. Air ducts can harbor bugs, so shutting air off while working with wort, beer, or yeast "in the open" is a good idea, as well as clean and sanitized working areas. All common sense for brewers I'd say.

If the infection cause is not in your boil => chill => racking chain, it must be in your fermentors. That's all that's left. I think we can rule out bottles as it is apparent the infection started higher up.

Inspect the buckets for scratches and pits, and when they pass, chlorine bomb them for a couple days, lid and all.

The bucket rim and lid areas are definitely bug traps that need special attention for cleanliness and sanitation. A rubber seal should be removed, cleaned, and sanitized before each use.

That muslin bag, do you boil that with PBW, washing soda, or some other low pH detergent, so it's really clean?

Is there a spigot on that bucket fermentor?

 

[IslandLizard]

I use a separate paddle to mash.

Maybe the strainer and sieve need to go. I can live with a bit more trub and hop slurry in my beer.

Yeah, omitting those could well fix your infection problem, but don't rule out the other critical points, like opening the lid.

I leave the lid on until ready to keg (or bottle). I snake a skinny 1/4" vinyl hose down the grommet hole and siphon out some beer for taste and gravity test. When adding fruit or dry hops, there's not much choice, but to open the lid.

If you want to ferment with clearer wort, let the kettle settle for 30 minutes after chilling, most trub will be on the bottom. If you don't use a hop screen on the inside, you could rack from the top into the bucket. Not much trub should make it into the fermentor that way. A little (even a lot) won't do any harm, it's just harder to harvest yeast from it, although many claim to have no issues.

 

[Davrosh]

Update for anyone who is interested.

Put simply, I can not get rid of this contamination. Tried just about everything I can possibly think of, including all suggestions on here to no avail.

I have spent far too much money on replacing plastic. I have deep cleaned my boiler tap. Taken anything out of the equation that could be harbouring infection. Weigh and mix grains not only in a different room but on a different floor, as well mashing in there.

I have an American pale that I bottled about 5 weeks ago that has developed a slight pelicle in the bottle along with the tell-tale tang (fermented in a brand new fermenter). Have a black saison in the fermenter that has developed one heck of a pelicle.

I'm about ready to give up. It must be something airborne in my kitchen. I'm not half arsed with my sanitation, and if I was I could understand this.

I either quit brewing altogether or learn to live with it.

 

[NewJersey]

No. You keep at it.
I have no new advice for you, but keep reading and trying new stuff.
I experience some off flavors in lighter or hoppy beers. Im working through every single thing imaginable. I oxygenate with pure o2, i have a dedicated fermentation chamber with temp control, ive replaced fermenters, etc. I just orderer a ward labs water test kit the other day.
You will figure it out, keep at it.
How do the fermenter lids seem to seal for you? Try glass carboys to ferment in.
Good luck, we all feel your frustration

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow, I thought you'd solved the problem. There must be something left you're missing in sanitation (or process). Think hard, go through all the steps again, and scrutinize them. Use a fine-toothed mental comb, or possibly have another (experienced) brewer present when you brew, test, and bottle.

You're still using Starsan? Have you tried a batch lately in your glass carboy, just to eliminate plastic?

I keep most of my everyday equipment like tubing and racking canes submerged in a half-full bucket with Starsan, between brews. Nothing can get on or inside them.

A pellicle in your fermentor points to an oversight in sanitation in the cool side process (after boiling is done). Your boil kettle and spigot reach near boiling temps for quite some time, and thus must be nearly sterilized, unless there's a real nasty layer of gunk in them.

How about doing a small 3 liter batch in a gallon-size, glass fermentor? Like one of those large jugs, cheap wine is sold in.
Put your cleaned and sanitized glass bottles and the glass jug in the oven at 275°F for a couple hours and let cool. Put a small piece of aluminum foil over the openings, only remove right before filling, then cap. Bottle directly from the glass carboy, not using a bottling bucket.

Don't give up, unless you want the bugs to claim victory.

 

[IslandLizard]

No. You keep at it.
I have no new advice for you, but keep reading and trying new stuff.
I experience some off flavors in lighter or hoppy beers. Im working through every single thing imaginable. I oxygenate with pure o2, i have a dedicated fermentation chamber with temp control, ive replaced fermenters, etc. I just orderer a ward labs water test kit the other day.
You will figure it out, keep at it.
How do the fermenter lids seem to seal for you? Try glass carboys to ferment in.
Good luck, we all feel your frustration

That ^

Fermentor lids, mainly the rim area is a leaky system that needs special attention.
Glass carboys use a drilled stopper, much easier to clean and sanitize also before removing.

 

[Plainer]

Don’t give up. This must be fixable short of moving to new house and replacing all equipment.

You have a history of successful brews so somewhere here is the key. I have a crazy idea, but don’t know if it will contribute reliable data, but maybe someone here can validate.

What if you make a couple starters (wort only) and see what type of infection they generate. No hops or yeast, just boiled DME.
Try to let one naturally ferment in your kitchen by leaving open to air and see if it develops a pellicle in a few weeks.

Go to the sports or camping store and get some new, empty water jugs (gallon or so) and sanitize them, use them as fermenters. Make a batch of wort, expose them to one piece of your equipment, let’s say racking crane or bottling wand. Then put it in the jug with an airlock fixed to it and see what happens.

If they some develop a pellicle and sour taste then maybe you can narrow it down. Maybe is a waste of 30 quid worth of supplies and a few hours time. I am just trying to think of ways to narrow down your infection without brewing full batches using lots of time and money.

I am dealing with my own contamination demons at the moment so I feel your frustration.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

Ok. Going to be a long one this. I have been getting what I assume to be some kind of lacto infection persistently for a year now, and I can't get rid. It's driving me mental and spoiling some excellent beers. Drinkable, but not as good as they should be.

My sanitation is never sloppy, and I will explain my processes later. I am 99.999999999% certain I know where this infection came from:

A starter that took 3 days to take off. I was going to brew a tripel, and I brewed a starter that showed no sign of activity whatsoever fora few days. So in the meantime I brewed up another beer. Anyway, I left the starter for a few days and it eventually took off day three. I let it ferment, crash cooled and decanted into a sterilised bottle (filled with starsan solution), which I kept in the fridge for a few days, then brewed up the tripel. I hadn't noticed any off flavours or smells in the tripel or starter, but it was my first time using 3787, so even if I had I might have just put it down to a bit of Belgian funk.

Anyway, after this beer I went on a bit of a brewing frenzy over spring/summer in anticipation of a brewing hiatus due to a new sleep/time depriving addition to the family.

I must have brewed about 8 beers in that period, and as they were all brewed quite close together I didn't notice anything was wrong until second to last; a stout that wasn't quite right (overly tart) and seemed to have developed a pelicle. Then the alarm bells started to ring!

None of my recently brewed beers seemed to be ageing very well - they would taste incredible after carbing at about 2 weeks, but then seemed to deteriorate somewhat. There was something present in every one that I couldn't put my finger on.

On closer inspection, every batch post the dodgy starter tripel had a pelicle to varying degrees, and some pretty heavy yeast deposits clinging to the sides and the necks of the bottles.

All the beers That I still had left pre tripel, including the black IPA that I brewed in between the dodgy starter and the tripel did not have a pelicle, and all seemed pretty good.

This leads me to believe the infection started in my tripel (fermented in a glass carbon) and was spread into my bottling line.

Also, none of my beers seemed to develop anything funky or strange during fermentation (both carboy and plastic bucket fermented beers - anyway, my bucket should have been fine as the tripel never touched it).

I then had a 5 month hiatus due to the new sleep depriver. In which time I replaced all my plastic (bottling bucket, autosiphon, fermenter, bottling wand).

Fast forward to this feb. I brewed my first beer since the new depriver; a ~6% porter using chocolate malt for the bulk of the dark grains. Primary for about a month, then bottled. It was amazing. Smelled like chocolate more so than any beer I have ever brewed and tasted spit on. Balanced, and the 6% was hidden very well. This was for the first 3 weeks. Then I noticed the tang. I couldn't be sure at this point though.

I brewed another. This time a cracking APA. Again, initially it was by far the best APA I had brewed. Very hoppy, backed up with a nice hint of caramel. But again. About 3 weeks in it started to taste a bit... Less good.

On inspection of the bottles, they all had at least a slight pelicle again, and the yeast deposits in the side.

At this point I was at a complete and utter ****ing loss as to how to stop this, and where it was coming from. Until u realised that although I had replaced all my plastic, I didn't replace my bottling tree. Cod this be harbouring the infection?

So. I boiled the fecker. For a good 20 minutes, and also gave it a good starsan wipe, and replaced my bottling wand before bottling my last beer (a Belgian wit).

Surely this should nail the little bastards.

Anyway. Said beer has been in the bottle about a week now, and I fear I still haven't killed it. Been in the bottle about a week, but it doesn't look good (although it could be bottle krausen at this stage). Tastes ok, but all of them have early on, and in a wit the supposed lacto would not be entirely out of place.

Anyway. My bottling process is:

Clean every bottle after or shortly after use with a bleach/water solution, rinse and store.

Day before bottling day - spray or wipe my bottling tree, rinse every bottle again a couple of times and store upside down on bottling tree.

Bottling day - rinse my bottling bucket, autosiphon, bottling wand. Then fill my bottling bucket with about 4litres of starsan solution. Shake, make sure all surface are well contacted. Dunk in my autosiphon, put the tube inside and pump through. I also spray all the surfaces as well.
I then spray the tap, and empty the bucket through the bottling wand, back into the solution bottle.

Meanwhile, boil some water for a good ten minutes, spray pan. Boil sugar with water for 5-10, lid on. Cool for a bit with lid over. Pour into bottling bucket.

I then use my starsan spray thing (avinator???) to "sterilise" each bottle and store on tree.

Bottle through wand. And spray/submerge all caps in starsan prior to capping.



Anyway. Any input is much appreciated. I'm at my wits end with this. Gutted, and all out of ideas.

I've had my share of infections, I recently isolated a persistent infection to one lane of my kegerator and I replaced everything on it. Keg, adapter, hose, faucet, faucet back.

I won.

 

[55x11]

Don’t give up. This must be fixable short of moving to new house and replacing all equipment.

You have a history of successful brews so somewhere here is the key. I have a crazy idea, but don’t know if it will contribute reliable data, but maybe someone here can validate.

What if you make a couple starters (wort only) and see what type of infection they generate. No hops or yeast, just boiled DME.
Try to let one naturally ferment in your kitchen by leaving open to air and see if it develops a pellicle in a few weeks.

Go to the sports or camping store and get some new, empty water jugs (gallon or so) and sanitize them, use them as fermenters. Make a batch of wort, expose them to one piece of your equipment, let’s say racking crane or bottling wand. Then put it in the jug with an airlock fixed to it and see what happens.

If they some develop a pellicle and sour taste then maybe you can narrow it down. Maybe is a waste of 30 quid worth of supplies and a few hours time. I am just trying to think of ways to narrow down your infection without brewing full batches using lots of time and money.

I am dealing with my own contamination demons at the moment so I feel your frustration.

I agree. I would replace fermentor bucket - do you have any others? Brew small ~1G batches (or better yet make a large batch of wort and divide it into multiple fermenters). Add hops to one batch, don't add hops to another one, store a third one away from the kitchen (ideally so it never sees kitchen air to begin with). Vary as much as you can. Sanitize everything, try to use as little equipment as possible. See which one develops infection and when.

 

[blizz81]

Taken anything out of the equation that could be harbouring infection.

Just went through the thread. I think I recall there being at least two spigots in play - one from your kettle to fermenter, one on bottling bucket.


Have you tried deleting these? I suppose in the kettle, just leaving that valve closed (and either siphoning into fermenter, or just pouring in if a bucket), and maybe using a different vessel altogether as a bottling bucket (and siphoning here)? Probably a minimal change, just trying to think about doing things a bit differently though. Fermenter spigot delete would take out all the copper / filtering, could brew a simple, not-too-hoppy batch and just let stuff fall out into trub in fermenter.


Not that it should make a difference, but again, in the interest of doing the same things a slightly different way....have you thought of maybe using iodophor in place of StarSan?

 

[Komodo]

I ditched bleach a long time ago. Everything gets a soak of hot Oxyclean, then a heavy rinse, then and a soak in Star San. My bottles soak in the Oxyclean for 24 hours or days (or weeks). I keep a spray bottle Star San in the brew area and spray everything all the time.

Fermenters get Oxycleaned on brew day or before and then soak with a fresh batch Star San in them. I pick them up with the lids on and swirl and shake them many times throughout the day. Bottles are stored after the Oxyclean, in crates with a sheet of tinfoil over the openings to prevent dust. They get sprayed 4x with a Star San vinator, and set aside, I do about 8-12 at a time. Caps are in a Star San bowl. Bottle wand, stir spoons, siphon, funnel, hydrometer, airlocks are all stored permanently in a bucket of Star San. There is always one sitting there.

When the Star San looks cloudy, or funky, I take it to the bathroom and after I clean the shower I mop the walls and tub with the Star San before I dump it. SWMBO will freak out and give you brownie points, and nothing will grow there for 2-3x longer than it usually does.

(not affiliated with Star San or Oxyclean, ha)

 

[Davrosh]

Thanks for all the input, it's great that so many of you are willing to chip in to offer ideas and experience to help me overcome this monumental pain in the arse.

I have obviously been thinking about this a lot recently and I may have found the culprit (having said that, I have been here several times before to no avail).

As I have previously stated; I'm almost certain this is something airborne in my kitchen as I have eliminated everything else - replaced plastic fermenters, bottling bucket, taps, wands, auto siphon, tubing (several times), deep cleaned tap and hop filter, oxycleaned bottles and equipment, boiled bottling tree, boiled anything I can actually, replaced air locks, replaced baster for samples (and now boil it every time), weigh grain and mash in a different room (different floor actually).

The problem started just over a year ago - subsequently every single brew in that period has had some degree on contamination. This time period coincides with the cats food bowl being moved from the corner of the kitchen to next to the wood burner, elevated about 1.5 foot in the chimney breastbone the centre of the wall, very close to where I brew and bottle. The stuff stinks, and goes for days without being changed, sometimes going a bit gammy.
Surely the stuff is teaming with bacteria that could easily be kicked up into the atmosphere? Now, I'd happily get rid of the cat, but unfortunately the rest of my family seem to like him.

I know it's a long shot but I'm running out of ideas.

I'm reluctant to splash out more on replacing equipment until I know I have this fecker nailed. A bucket, bottling bucket, wand, auto siphon and tubing sets me back about £40 a time. I can't afford to be doing that every few months and it completely defeats one of the main reasons I started brewing in the first place; to save money.

Anyway. I think I need to replace my boiler tap as the deep clean had no impact. Clean the whole thing up again and maybe see if I can commandeer someone's house to brew my next batch. If that goes ok I reckon it should prove beyond any reasonable doubt that my kitchen is the source.

Cheers again for all the input. Appreciated.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am sorry to hear of your issues. We all have gone through this and I have a bit of it going on right now myself.

1) Could you go over your chilling process for us? What happens from flameout to the primary?

2) I have read that anything over ~23 IBUs of hops will kill lacto in your beer. My impression is that IPAs should never get a lacto infection. If this is true then you are chasing a different type of infection. Hopefully others will chime in here.

3) Any different processes different from the past? I added a recirculation pump and it took a few lacto hefeweizens to realize that the pump was touching pre and post boil wort without being sanitized. Duh! But process is process and it is tough to see the forest through the trees at times.

4) Have you tried bleach instead of Star-San?

I know you are tired and fed up but we have been there and want to help you keep going with the best hobby ever.

 

[Papa]

Hey, this is the best thread I've come across as I try to resolve my current issues with persistent infected batches. I thought I had isolated it to a keg issue but likely not (heating dip tubes and removable components at 200 deg C for an hour and boiling hot caustic on everything else didn't provide the step change i was after). Just wondering if you have an update? I too suspect airborne bacterial issues.

One approach is to hot cube my next batch (two x 15 litre cubes) and sending them off to two brew buddies to independently ferment and bottle+keg (obviously I'd like to get a least a few of those bottles!).

 

[Dcpcooks]

Hey, this is the best thread I've come across as I try to resolve my current issues with persistent infected batches. I thought I had isolated it to a keg issue but likely not (heating dip tubes and removable components at 200 deg C for an hour and boiling hot caustic on everything else didn't provide the step change i was after). Just wondering if you have an update? I too suspect airborne bacterial issues.



One approach is to hot cube my next batch (two x 15 litre cubes) and sending them off to two brew buddies to independently ferment and bottle+keg (obviously I'd like to get a least a few of those bottles!).

Papa this is a two year old thread. I'd suggest you start a new one where you describe your process, experiences and anything else you have that can help folks help you.

If you really have an airborne bacteria problem you'll really need to do a deep clean on your space. I suspect it's something other than that. Unless your going no chill in an open fermentor airborne issues are very few and far between.

I have barrels of sour beer in my brew space. I've broken mason jars full of sour microbes in the space. I have two barrels of lambic that were spontaneous fermentations from the wild yeast living in my brew space. I can and do make clean beers with nothing more than a PBW wash, hot rinse and star San rinse as my cleaning process. So in my humble opinion it's something you've missed.

We'd love to help so tell us a bit more about the what where when and how you brew!

 

[Kyle1111]

Hey, this is the best thread I've come across as I try to resolve my current issues with persistent infected batches. I thought I had isolated it to a keg issue but likely not (heating dip tubes and removable components at 200 deg C for an hour and boiling hot caustic on everything else didn't provide the step change i was after). Just wondering if you have an update? I too suspect airborne bacterial issues.

One approach is to hot cube my next batch (two x 15 litre cubes) and sending them off to two brew buddies to independently ferment and bottle+keg (obviously I'd like to get a least a few of those bottles!).

Hello. I just saw this thread come up on my email now. Sorry if it's very old. Just wanted to make sure you got the help you came here for.

Did you sort it out? If not here's what I would suggest: if you send your wort to your friends and they turn out fine, all you know is your hot-side procedure is not to blame.

If I was you I would make a very small batch (not even intending to drink it since you know it will probably become infected) out of very basic/cheap/old ingredients and take and keep a sample from each stage post-boil. Keep the samples in say sealed and sanitised plastic cola bottles. That way you will be able to wait and see where the infection kicks in.

Good luck.

 

[Papa]

Papa this is a two year old thread. I'd suggest you start a new one where you describe your process, experiences and anything else you have that can help folks help you.

If you really have an airborne bacteria problem you'll really need to do a deep clean on your space. I suspect it's something other than that. Unless your going no chill in an open fermentor airborne issues are very few and far between.

I have barrels of sour beer in my brew space. I've broken mason jars full of sour microbes in the space. I have two barrels of lambic that were spontaneous fermentations from the wild yeast living in my brew space. I can and do make clean beers with nothing more than a PBW wash, hot rinse and star San rinse as my cleaning process. So in my humble opinion it's something you've missed.

We'd love to help so tell us a bit more about the what where when and how you brew!

Hey, this is really valuable info. Thank you. There's two broad types of responses re infection - the "it's ok, there's something obvious you've missed" and the "I believe in mystery bugs". I prefer the former - far more encouraging!