Pale malt but realy dark beer

[kahless79]

HI,
I wanted to make a blonde and really bitter beer, so I used the following proportions for the grains:
55% Munich malt
40% pale malt
5% crystal malt

I was expecting a really pale wort but it came out really dark, say like a really dark brown ale. I had used in the past just crystal malt and pale malt and the wort was quite pale, as expected but this time using as base the munich malt the wort was not as expected at all. Taste wise was actually quite enjoyable (respect to my previous handful of batches) but the colour thing made me upset not because I don't like brown ales ( I actually prefer them) but because I meant to do something different.

I can add that I had left for a good 15 minutes the wort at about 90F as I ha dread it was better to do it with a huge amount f Munich malt and I had mistaken one of the three steps having the first at about 140F while I was supposed to leave it at 128F,
At the end sugars were nicely converted even though the wort didn't tase much sweet (The final product is 3.6% so light as a bitter can be).

Any idea about how this happened?

 

[Ski12568]

What crystal malt? There are many different colors of crystal malt. A dark crystal malt could have been the culprit

 

[joshesmusica]

where exactly in the process are you talking about this dark color?
if it's before fermentation, just wait to see what it looks like in the end, and don't worry too much about the color right now. for an example here's a link to what a witbier looks like in the glass:
http://greatbrewers.com/sites/default/files/images/GENERIC_witbier_206.preview.jpg
and here's what a witbier looks like in the fermenter:
http://brew7.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/wit-ferment-300x225.jpg

 

[GrogNerd]

Definitely check which crystal you're using, but also remember Munich comes in 2 colors, 10 & 20 SRM

I could never brew anything under a 10 SRM, until I started adding some acidulated malt to get my pH down. Then my brews started turning out closer to the predicted color

 

[kahless79]

Not really sure about what crystal malt I have, I will try to find out but point is I had brewed with th esame crystal and teh same pale malt and the wort and beer were both quite bright. The colour I'm talking about is in both wort and beer, sure the wort was darker than how is the beer now (which by the way is now in the secondary fermenter) but fro mwhat I've seen in my previous batches when it'll clear it won;t became pale if now is so dark. At the moment essentially the beer is darker than an hobgoblin. The only difference between this and other batches malts is just the addition of teh munich one...I don;t know if is 10 or 20 SRM, I'll try to contact the seller in order to know it.....but isn't nyway too dark? the current colour is kind of teh one you can see in teh pic at the very left:

http://adventuresportsjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Three-Beers_Small.jpg

By the way the reason I added also crystal malt and pale malt was because I had read it would help with the ph, but maybe I need to study a bt more about it, I just took it as advice

 

[Ski12568]

Different types of crystal add different colors.

But like joshesmusica said, your beer could appear to be darker when it is in secondary. Check the color when you are taking a gravity reading or put some in a small glass.

Here is my secondary (dry hopped) for a pale ale and then the pale ale in the glass.

 

[kahless79]

OK thanks, I guess next week I'll find out the outcome. I was just surprised because again with the same crystal and pale malts only the wort was really bright. Thanks for your help

 

[joshesmusica]

maybe just report back to us when you have it in a glass. as far as any concerns that will pop up during brewing, make good notes about each step of the way (things you did right, and things you think you may have done wrong). but don't evaluate the end product from the middle. when you're at the very end, and the beer is still having problems, then come on here with all your detailed notes, and the awesome experienced brewers can give you some great advice.
but without a finished product being bad, and without good, specific notes, it's really hard to give you good advice. what can happen on forums like these, with very broad descriptions of the brewing process, is very broad, shot-in-the-dark advice. most of which will still leave you with the problem you had before, plus adding on additional problems on top of that.
as you can see in the pictures above, there is still quite a bit of yeast in suspension at this stage. yeast doesn't reflect the light back to you, neither does it let the light through the beer. add to that the hops on top blocking any light, and the fact that the light source is coming from one direction, and the beer looks pretty dark.
once it's in the glass, carbed up, most of the yeast has dropped out of suspension, and you have incoming light from all sides, the beer looks much lighter.

 

[MichaelBrock]

Definitely check which crystal you're using, but also remember Munich comes in 2 colors, 10 & 20 SRM

Munich isn't quite that dark. Munich I is in the 5-7L range and Munich II in the 8-10 range. But I agree, either Munich is going to be dark enough to keep the beer from being pale. And 5% of the properly chosen crystal could make it nearly opaque!

 

[GrogNerd]

where did you source your grains?

any chance they sold you the wrong kind?

 

[GrogNerd]

Munich isn't quite that dark. Munich I is in the 5-7L range and Munich II in the 8-10 range. But I agree, either Munich is going to be dark enough to keep the beer from being pale. And 5% of the properly chosen crystal could make it nearly opaque!

I had always gone by what BeerSmith said, and the few times I bought Munich, I thought the LHBS indicated it was 10L. checking my notes, I now see it was actually 5L.

it's called learning. about Munich and about the importance of good notes and about how my memory ain't as great as I think it is

 

[IslandLizard]

Munich isn't quite that dark. Munich I is in the 5-7L range and Munich II in the 8-10 range. But I agree, either Munich is going to be dark enough to keep the beer from being pale. And 5% of the properly chosen crystal could make it nearly opaque!

That's Weyermann's Munich.

Briess is 10L and 20L as in GrogNerd's screen clip. So Briess' Light is darker than Weyermann's Dark (II).

So yes, it is about learning, knowing, and researching.

 

[MichaelBrock]

I had always gone by what BeerSmith said, and the few times I bought Munich, I thought the LHBS indicated it was 10L. checking my notes, I now see it was actually 5L.

it's called learning. about Munich and about the importance of good notes and about how my memory ain't as great as I think it is

I too had just been going by Beersmith! I had no idea that Briess Munich was that much darker. It adds to my regret that my LHBS doesn't put any source information on their grain bins.

 

[GrogNerd]

That's Weyermann's Munich.

Briess is 10L and 20L as in GrogNerd's screen clip. So Briess' Light is darker than Weyermann's Dark (II).

So yes, it is about learning, knowing, and researching.

Ah, well now...

The knowledge is just non-stop here lately

 

[kahless79]

Hi, checked in my amazon order history, this is the munich I've used:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00K251F7K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

it says a colour between 15 and 30 EBC which in RSM are 7.62 to 15.24 so possibly if it was 15.24 plus some crystal.....it just may be the the reason. I actually didn't know anything about TSM till today. That's another thing I'll check.

The other two malts are:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002Q5O0O4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0026WZA7I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

so 55% *15.24 + 71.12*5% + 2.794 * 35% = 1291.60
which divided by 100 gives 12.92 RSM
Which even if I can't know as you guys said the product is not finished, still feels to me like a plausible colour as from what I can see at the moment. If I'm wrong with the amounts though.... I need to check again the exact percentages, possibly I've got less pale and more crystal percentage which could easily bring to a 16 RSM. Well, I might just have written loads of crap but I feel I've learned a lot today

 

[IslandLizard]

Ah, well now...

The knowledge is just non-stop here lately

Always been like that, not just lately. And retention goes down with age, doubling the effort.

No, it's not us. Who would think the differences would be that large, and you cannot simply swap out maltsters? Aside from those 2, Briess also has Bonlander (Munich) at 10°L and "Aromatic" which happens to be a Munich at 20°L.

So when we see a recipe without maltsters or Lovibond listed, we've got to be more careful what to use. I got all the "plug ins" from BS which are mere updates to ingredient lists and recipes. Among others, I think the 2 Weyermann's Munich malts are added by one of those.

BS is weird and I still have trouble getting my head around the interface. And the printed brew sheets don't include some critical information from the recipe. The best tool out there, but far removed from perfect. You really need to learn how to use it and put up with its convolution, while keeping an eye out for the unexpected. Yesterday I overwrote 2 recipes by accident. Had to retrace my steps to reset them.

 

[joshesmusica]

Hi, checked in my amazon order history, this is the munich I've used:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00K251F7K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

it says a colour between 15 and 30 EBC which in RSM are 7.62 to 15.24 so possibly if it was 15.24 plus some crystal.....it just may be the the reason. I actually didn't know anything about TSM till today. That's another thing I'll check.

The other two malts are:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002Q5O0O4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0026WZA7I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

so 55% *15.24 + 71.12*5% + 2.794 * 35% = 1291.60
which divided by 100 gives 12.92 RSM
Which even if I can't know as you guys said the product is not finished, still feels to me like a plausible colour as from what I can see at the moment. If I'm wrong with the amounts though.... I need to check again the exact percentages, possibly I've got less pale and more crystal percentage which could easily bring to a 16 RSM. Well, I might just have written loads of crap but I feel I've learned a lot today

using beersmith i typed in the lowest numbers for ebc according to those descriptions, and then the highest numbers for ebc. the images i've attached are the colors it's predicting according to your percentages for a 1.052 19L batch. so i would say your final product could end up in the range between those two colors.

 

[rmyurick]

You didn't mention your OG. Given the same malt bill by %, Higher gravity beer is going to be darker. But yeah, the culprit is probably the 75L crystal malt--you shouldn't use more than 10-20L crystal if you're shooting for "blonde".

 

[C-Rider]

I tried to make an IPA w/100% Dark (20) Munich as my LHBS was out of the "normal" Light (10) Munich. Both from Briss.

Mistake. Although the taste is good it's to dark a red for an IPA and 100% Dark Munich didn't totally "convert" and I got less sugar then I figured I would. Read somewhere "LATER" not to go over 80% Dark Munich.

As someone said....life is a learning process....