Packaging Wine like Beer: Harmful or No?

[IrishBrewer420]

I am wondering if it might possibly hurt wine to package it like beer. What I mean by that is using beer bottles and crown caps in order to bottle the wine, rather than using wine bottles and corks. Now, I fully understand that the practice is not recommended or ideal, but as long as it does not have direct adverse effects on the wine, it should be fine, right? After all, I've heard of brewers who have taken full degassing measures and still end up with a tiny bit of carbonation, so it is not safe to package wine in carbonation-resistant bottles just in case? The way I figure, the wine is still sealed from any air getting in or out of the bottle. Also, wine does not need to be bottle-conditioned the way that beer does, so a difference in the seal should not stop or hurt that step since it isn't there. Will the wine be ruined, yes or no? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this - thanks all!

 

[passedpawn]

I don't see any problem with it, other than the aesthetics. BTW, my wine has NO carbonation, not even a little.

 

[kh54s10]

They package wine in plastic bags.... I don't think the wine would be any different.

If the wine doesn't have any carbonation when bottled it will not get any while bottled unless it was not ready to be bottled.

 

[bucketnative]

There are commercial wineries packaging wine in crown-sealed bottles:
http://www.podericellario.it/site/index.php?page=main&name=dettaglio&idprod=65
http://www.oakandbarrelnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/E-AND-M-BERGER-GRUNER-VELTLINER-1L.jpg

I've had both of these, and they are good wines. Wine will always have a little CO2 in solution (even still wine has up to 1 vol of CO2, at least per EU regulations). Without CO2, the wine would taste very flat. However, it usually isn't carbonated, per se. A little CO2 will give it a spritzy feel on the tongue and a bit of bite. As long as your fermentation is complete, you should not get carbonation (bubbles).

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

You can bottle it and you can keg it. Wine snobs may not approve and capped bottles may not be ideal for long term aging/storage but, you can.

 

[passedpawn]

There are commercial wineries packaging wine in crown-sealed bottles:
http://www.podericellario.it/site/index.php?page=main&name=dettaglio&idprod=65
http://www.oakandbarrelnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/E-AND-M-BERGER-GRUNER-VELTLINER-1L.jpg

I've had both of these, and they are good wines. Wine will always have a little CO2 in solution (even still wine has up to 1 vol of CO2, at least per EU regulations). Without CO2, the wine would taste very flat. However, it usually isn't carbonated, per se. A little CO2 will give it a spritzy feel on the tongue and a bit of bite. As long as your fermentation is complete, you should not get carbonation (bubbles).

I just made a carbonated white wine (sweet italian grape). It's really good!

My reds appear completely still.

 

[z-bob]

Champagne is often made with crown caps. They remove the cap and replace it with a cork or stopper at the end of the process.

I've put wine in beer bottles before; both still and sparkling wines. It's a good serving size; you get 2 normal-sized glasses or one big 'un. I save my clear Newcastle bottles for this.

 

[IrishBrewer420]

Thanks for the info all. Appreciate your insights. Very glad to know that I have not ruined by 5 Gal. batch by capping it. It's very interesting to see the commercial wines utilizing this method. They look like very good wines that I would certainly try if able. One question; when you say it's not ideal for "long-term" aging, I assume you mean six months or better right. I was planning to let the wine mellow out in-bottle for two months.

UPDATE: I have sampled the wine in question I fear it was not worth the effort to bottle. It is ruined and I am hoping for some info as to why. I followed the recipe in my book to the letter - it was a basic jelly/jam wine recipe that utilizes all the obvious equipment/ingredients which I have access to. It has a very unpleasant taste and smell which I can only describe as chemical-esque. To cover the obvious possible mistakes, I did not accidentally use a tablespoon when adding teaspoons of various things like pectic enzyme, acid blend and so on. The fermentation cycle was very active and healthy and I did reach my ABV goal. I have the wine three months to naturally clear/degas in a bulk-aging vessel (glass carboy). All of my equipment is still very new (only used for two batches) and is in very good condition with no scratches, scrapes ect. I took every recommended cleaning/sanitizing procedure and showed no signs of infection/mold. The wine is showing the proper color and I kept it under airlock constantly to avoid oxidation. In case you need the recipe, here it is: 3 Lb jelly, 6 pts water, 1 lb sugar, 2 tsp acid blend 1/8 tsp tannin 1 tsp nutrient 1 tsp pectic enzyme and yeast. Every ingredient was scaled up to five gallons. I have made several batches of beer in the same room that have come out perfect, so my temperature should be pretty much in the recommended range. What went wrong? I'd greatly appreciate any insight.

 

[buMbLeB]

Sorry to hear it! Only two things I can think of - did the jam/jelly contain preservatives or other additives that might have stressed the yeast? And did you perhaps leave too much headspace in the carboy?

 

[RichBenn]

Thanks for the info all. Appreciate your insights. Very glad to know that I have not ruined by 5 Gal. batch by capping it. It's very interesting to see the commercial wines utilizing this method. They look like very good wines that I would certainly try if able. One question; when you say it's not ideal for "long-term" aging, I assume you mean six months or better right. I was planning to let the wine mellow out in-bottle for two months.

UPDATE: I have sampled the wine in question I fear it was not worth the effort to bottle. It is ruined and I am hoping for some info as to why. I followed the recipe in my book to the letter - it was a basic jelly/jam wine recipe that utilizes all the obvious equipment/ingredients which I have access to. It has a very unpleasant taste and smell which I can only describe as chemical-esque. To cover the obvious possible mistakes, I did not accidentally use a tablespoon when adding teaspoons of various things like pectic enzyme, acid blend and so on. The fermentation cycle was very active and healthy and I did reach my ABV goal. I have the wine three months to naturally clear/degas in a bulk-aging vessel (glass carboy). All of my equipment is still very new (only used for two batches) and is in very good condition with no scratches, scrapes ect. I took every recommended cleaning/sanitizing procedure and showed no signs of infection/mold. The wine is showing the proper color and I kept it under airlock constantly to avoid oxidation. In case you need the recipe, here it is: 3 Lb jelly, 6 pts water, 1 lb sugar, 2 tsp acid blend 1/8 tsp tannin 1 tsp nutrient 1 tsp pectic enzyme and yeast. Every ingredient was scaled up to five gallons. I have made several batches of beer in the same room that have come out perfect, so my temperature should be pretty much in the recommended range. What went wrong? I'd greatly appreciate any insight.

There are WAY too many questions that would need to diagnose, but I'm not certain it's worth it for this recipe.

If you are going to do a fruit wine, start with fruit. My opinion, but jelly just sounds horrid. The ingredients are everything in wine. Good grapes equals good wine. A friend, who makes good wine from grapes did one with Thompson grapes growing in his yard that was so bad he would not even let anyone try it. Ever wonder why you never see a wine made with those?

 

[z-bob]

I have used old (browned) jelly before in wine just to get rid of it; I mix it with apple juice or white grape juice (depending what kind of jelly it was) and ferment with white wine yeast. All the brown drops out. I don't use any pectic enzymes; the pectin drops out too. Sometimes it tastes really good, sometimes not. I've never had any turn out nasty or medicine-y.

With that much pectin, I think you would *not* want pectic enzymes because you don't really want the pectin to ferment (it makes methanol, or so I've been told)

 

[IrishBrewer420]

I have used old (browned) jelly before in wine just to get rid of it; I mix it with apple juice or white grape juice (depending what kind of jelly it was) and ferment with white wine yeast. All the brown drops out. I don't use any pectic enzymes; the pectin drops out too. Sometimes it tastes really good, sometimes not. I've never had any turn out nasty or medicine-y.

With that much pectin, I think you would *not* want pectic enzymes because you don't really want the pectin to ferment (it makes methanol, or so I've been told)

Uh-oh. I'm very glad you told me this, as I did use the recommended amount of pectic enzyme. I didn't account for pectin in my jelly base - you'd think my book would have. So if my off-flavors are produced by an increase in methanol, how can I be sure my wine is safe to consume? Could I possibly suffer the same affects as if I drank uncut moonshine? I decided that after all I put into this wine, I'm drinking it no matter how bad it is. I am also half-hoping that if only I give it 4 or 6 months or so to age in-bottle it might possible mellow out enough to be palatable.

Also, somebody asked me how much headspace I had in my fermentors. How does this affect wine? During it's early brewing stage I had the wine in the carboy and it was filled pretty much to the neck, whereas I usually only have enough to go up to the shoulder (like 4.5 to 4.7 gallons or so). Could an overfilled carboy possibly produce off-flavors? If so, how? Thanks for all your help on this.

I've also seen people use the term "aerate" in relation to wine. I had my under airlock all the time, no breathing, stirring ect. Everyone said I could oxidize it. Is this common practice?

 

[timdillon36]

In case you need the recipe, here it is: 3 Lb jelly, 6 pts water, 1 lb sugar, 2 tsp acid blend 1/8 tsp tannin 1 tsp nutrient 1 tsp pectic enzyme and yeast. Every ingredient was scaled up to five gallons. I have made several batches of beer in the same room that have come out perfect, so my temperature should be pretty much in the recommended range. What went wrong? I'd greatly appreciate any insight.

Without knowing your entire process I am just guessing but I have had the medicinal, bandaid, adhesive taste in a beer that I made as well as in a wime.

I traced it back to my water. I saw no mention of treating with camdon or sulfites in your post which most wine makers do to treat for wild yeast before fermentation but this will also drive off the chlorine in the water. Boiling the water or just allowing it to sit in an open container will also remove the clorine but if the yeast is pitched before the clorine can escape it can stress the yeast and make for some awful off flavors.

 

[IrishBrewer420]

Without knowing your entire process I am just guessing but I have had the medicinal, bandaid, adhesive taste in a beer that I made as well as in a wime.

I traced it back to my water. I saw no mention of treating with camdon or sulfites in your post which most wine makers do to treat for wild yeast before fermentation but this will also drive off the chlorine in the water. Boiling the water or just allowing it to sit in an open container will also remove the clorine but if the yeast is pitched before the clorine can escape it can stress the yeast and make for some awful off flavors.

It never occurred to me to treat my water before brewing. I have made several batches of beer using the same untreated tap water as I did with my wine, and the beers came out perfect. However, beer gets boiled; my wine base had to be unheated cold water. Also, I actually do have campden tablets and pretty much every recipe in my book EXCEPT the jelly recipe utilize that ingredient. But for some reason my recipe did not call for campden.

I actually do have a friend who allows all their drinking water to sit in open-face containers so chlorine and other impurities will naturally evaporate out of it. Perhaps I need to utilize this method. Would a bucket with a lid and uncovered grommet be enough oxygen for that to work? I'm concerned about dust and foreign matter settling into my wine water. Thanks!

 

[timdillon36]

It never occurred to me to treat my water before brewing. I have made several batches of beer using the same untreated tap water as I did with my wine, and the beers came out perfect. However, beer gets boiled; my wine base had to be unheated cold water. Also, I actually do have campden tablets and pretty much every recipe in my book EXCEPT the jelly recipe utilize that ingredient. But for some reason my recipe did not call for campden.

I actually do have a friend who allows all their drinking water to sit in open-face containers so chlorine and other impurities will naturally evaporate out of it. Perhaps I need to utilize this method. Would a bucket with a lid and uncovered grommet be enough oxygen for that to work? I'm concerned about dust and foreign matter settling into my wine water. Thanks!

Personally I would either boil and then cool the water or treat the water or must with camdon or use RO water.

Edit: and btw, I bottle all of my wine in beer bottles. I have even used the aluminum pint bottles and plastic soda bottles.

 

[IrishBrewer420]

Personally I would either boil and then cool the water or treat the water or must with camdon or use RO water.

Edit: and btw, I bottle all of my wine in beer bottles. I have even used the aluminum pint bottles and plastic soda bottles.

Treat with campden? Wow, if the only thing that ruined my wine was not using those tablets, I'm going to be extremely unhappy and will contact the seller of the recipe book I used to express my displeasure. I'm already working on my next wine and this one DOES have campden tablets in it, so hopefully it will be okay. The jelly wine we're talking about is not so bad to lose, but I'm working on expensive honey mead now and I can't afford to let it turn. How exactly does headspace affect a brew? My turned wine was arguably overfilled in the carboy for a few weeks and I wonder if that might have done something. Also does the wine need to have air? Mine was always under airlock.

 

[buMbLeB]

Also, somebody asked me how much headspace I had in my fermentors. How does this affect wine? During it's early brewing stage I had the wine in the carboy and it was filled pretty much to the neck, whereas I usually only have enough to go up to the shoulder (like 4.5 to 4.7 gallons or so). Could an overfilled carboy possibly produce off-flavors? If so, how? Thanks for all your help on this.

I've also seen people use the term "aerate" in relation to wine. I had my under airlock all the time, no breathing, stirring ect. Everyone said I could oxidize it. Is this common practice?

That was me asking about headspace. During the "early brewing stage" this isn't really an issue, as the yeast needs oxgen to breed, and it's pumping out so much CO2 that it blankets itself and prevents oxidation; but after that, prolonged exposure to oxygen will do the same thing to your wine as air does to a cut apple - turn it brown and funky. Once the active fermentation is finished you should aim to have it filled up into the neck of the carboy to prevent this.

Conversely, if you're not providing sufficient O2 exposure ("aeration" - stirring, swirling etc) then the yeast can't breathe like they want to, and can get stressed, and I think this can lead to off flavours. If you're under an airlock right from the start, and you're never stirring it up, this might be a problem. I always start off fermenting under a clean tea towel/ rubber band, and only switch to airlocks after a few days once peak activity has passed.

 

[IrishBrewer420]

That was me asking about headspace. During the "early brewing stage" this isn't really an issue, as the yeast needs oxgen to breed, and it's pumping out so much CO2 that it blankets itself and prevents oxidation; but after that, prolonged exposure to oxygen will do the same thing to your wine as air does to a cut apple - turn it brown and funky. Once the active fermentation is finished you should aim to have it filled up into the neck of the carboy to prevent this.

Conversely, if you're not providing sufficient O2 exposure ("aeration" - stirring, swirling etc) then the yeast can't breathe like they want to, and can get stressed, and I think this can lead to off flavours. If you're under an airlock right from the start, and you're never stirring it up, this might be a problem. I always start off fermenting under a clean tea towel/ rubber band, and only switch to airlocks after a few days once peak activity has passed.

Thank you, I guess I should make sure my wine gets a little air. I did stir it vigorously during primary stage but left it undisturbed under airlock from then on out. I am still hoping that if I give my wine enough time to mellow out in bottle (3 months or more?) it will hopefully at least become palatable.

 

[EarthwormJim]

Treat with campden? Wow, if the only thing that ruined my wine was not using those tablets, I'm going to be extremely unhappy and will contact the seller of the recipe book I used to express my displeasure. I'm already working on my next wine and this one DOES have campden tablets in it, so hopefully it will be okay. The jelly wine we're talking about is not so bad to lose, but I'm working on expensive honey mead now and I can't afford to let it turn. How exactly does headspace affect a brew? My turned wine was arguably overfilled in the carboy for a few weeks and I wonder if that might have done something. Also does the wine need to have air? Mine was always under airlock.

I'd suggest you get a book or do some reading online about the wine making process. It sounds like what you have is a book of recipes like most "cookbooks". They don't tell you how to cook, they assume you understand the process, they give a list of ingredients and a procedure.

Since the most common use of the Campden tablets is to sanitize the must before pitching yeast, I can understand why it wasn't included in the recipe as it shouldn't be needed here for that purpose. A suggestion to dechlorinate the water might have been nice, but the author can't account for everyone's situation and probably assumes you know what needs to be done with the water you are going to use. Understanding the process helps you fill the gaps so you can make those decisions yourself.

Unless you got the book from a shop that specializes in winemaking/brewing and you let them know your experience level, I, personally, would be careful how much displeasure I would dole out. If it were purchased from a winemaking shop and the person had a sense of your experience, they should have known what book to sell you. If you walked in BN and told them you want to make wine, you probably walked out with something with a lot of recipes and pretty pictures. If you wouldn't ask the person behind the counter for advise on winemaking directly, would you really expect them to be able to recommed a good book for the purpose? I would definitely let them know, though. If nothing else, maybe you help the next guy out.

 

[IrishBrewer420]

I'd suggest you get a book or do some reading online about the wine making process. It sounds like what you have is a book of recipes like most "cookbooks". They don't tell you how to cook, they assume you understand the process, they give a list of ingredients and a procedure.

Since the most common use of the Campden tablets is to sanitize the must before pitching yeast, I can understand why it wasn't included in the recipe as it shouldn't be needed here for that purpose. A suggestion to dechlorinate the water might have been nice, but the author can't account for everyone's situation and probably assumes you know what needs to be done with the water you are going to use. Understanding the process helps you fill the gaps so you can make those decisions yourself.

Unless you got the book from a shop that specializes in winemaking/brewing and you let them know your experience level, I, personally, would be careful how much displeasure I would dole out. If it were purchased from a winemaking shop and the person had a sense of your experience, they should have known what book to sell you. If you walked in BN and told them you want to make wine, you probably walked out with something with a lot of recipes and pretty pictures. If you wouldn't ask the person behind the counter for advise on winemaking directly, would you really expect them to be able to recommed a good book for the purpose? I would definitely let them know, though. If nothing else, maybe you help the next guy out.

Thank you for the info. Perhaps I do need a different book. Now that you mention it my book is pretty basic and the recipes are quite similar. I do have a somewhat close relationship with the people at my LHBS. I live only a block away and visit frequently. And I wasn't actually going to call and complain, I just say things. But thanks for the advice and I'm very glad to have this forum.