I was looking around for some info on the strain(s) of Brett found in Orval dregs and I found the discussion (from babblebelt) below. Thought it might be helpful for people searching around here. If anyone has any further info to add, please do.
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i was talking to bill c from victory at a wild devil tasting like 2 years ago (goddamn- has it really been that long?) and he said their lab found 2 different strains of brett in orval and they used both of them in WD.
Danger
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Regarding Orval sediment/dregs.
It is indeed true that they contain a mix of the primary strain (Saccharomyces) and the secondary Brett. I have plated out sediment twice to isolate strains, and I would say that at least 90% of the living cells are the Saccharomyces strain (for bottles aged for less than 1 year. It might shift in favor for Brett in really old bottles). To use Orval sediments as a startet for a "100% brett" beer is not going to work. The Saccharomyces will out-grow the Brett during primary, and the Brett will catch up only later (similar effect as in Orval itself). It might still be a wonderful Orvalish beer, but not truly a "100%" Brett beer. You can easily tell if the Orval Saccharomyces becomes the primary fermenter, since it has a quite different smell comapred to Brett (it smells typically fruity/spicy "belgian" like a tripple). It will also ferment in a more violent(normal) way compared to the more gently foaming Brett.
For the 100% Brett beers I have made, the lag has been about 12 h, but then I have used a 1/10 volume starter using stir bar + free acess to air + calciumcarbonate as pH stabilizer to get it very active and dense.
/Carl
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danger... I'm 100% positive that there is only one Brett strain in Orval. What Victory was seeing originally was polymorphism that exists in that strain. At Victory they are using the "orval" strain for everything as I understand from my conversations. I know it's what they use in wild devil and have insight to a few more projects Whitney Thompson is working on in the lab over there. They have found the Orval Brett strain to work well in primary though.
The polymorphism seen in the Orval strain (which can also bee seen in the WL brux strain) forms colonies that are beige and pearly white. Upon re-streaking they are always the same single organism just have the tendency to form colonies of two different shades. I've observed it on MYPG, and UBA media.
CarlT.. I have plated out orval dregs 4 times and never found Sacch. Its always the same exact single strain. I know some of the bottles have been older but nothing over a year. I really don't think they add Sacch. anymore. I have not visited the abbey but I understand how they keep things simple and have a good understanding of the technology they use, I'm almost certain that there is not Sacch used and probably hasn't been for a good couple of years. If you have found it recently that's pretty cool, and maybe I'll purchase a few newer bottles and give it a try again, but I've been stumped everytime..
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ChadY:
The last time I plated from a Bottle was about 1.5 years ago from an approx 6 months old bottle. The bottle was bought in Sweden (I'm Swedish) and stored cold most of the time.
The designation as Saccharomyces was judged based on:
1) Typical (and extremely homogenous) Saccharomyces ovoid morphology, size and budding pattern seen under microscope.
2) Growth behaviour and colony morphology.
3) Smell and taste evaluation from a small fermentation batch. The smell is spicy (clove/black pepper) with fruitiness leaning more towards pears/ripe apples rather than banana.
According to "Brew Like a Monk", Orval is "..dosed with the primary yeast.." for bottle refermentation.
The other strain found was typical Brettanomyces, with irregular elongated morphology, small size, fuzzy colony morphology, and typical Brett smell & taste. Pure fermentations using this strain has been varying for me, with both smoky/goaty as well as more fruity results. When used as a secondary fermenter in bottles (Orval style), it gives a very "Orvalish" result, starting rather unpleasant with goat/urine changing within some moths to a pleasant fruitiness + horse blanket smell.
Give it a try again using a fresh bottle (sometimes pubs/bars is the better place to buy at, since they tend to store bottles dark+cold right after getting them from the importer).
/Carl
...
i was talking to bill c from victory at a wild devil tasting like 2 years ago (goddamn- has it really been that long?) and he said their lab found 2 different strains of brett in orval and they used both of them in WD.
Danger
...
Regarding Orval sediment/dregs.
It is indeed true that they contain a mix of the primary strain (Saccharomyces) and the secondary Brett. I have plated out sediment twice to isolate strains, and I would say that at least 90% of the living cells are the Saccharomyces strain (for bottles aged for less than 1 year. It might shift in favor for Brett in really old bottles). To use Orval sediments as a startet for a "100% brett" beer is not going to work. The Saccharomyces will out-grow the Brett during primary, and the Brett will catch up only later (similar effect as in Orval itself). It might still be a wonderful Orvalish beer, but not truly a "100%" Brett beer. You can easily tell if the Orval Saccharomyces becomes the primary fermenter, since it has a quite different smell comapred to Brett (it smells typically fruity/spicy "belgian" like a tripple). It will also ferment in a more violent(normal) way compared to the more gently foaming Brett.
For the 100% Brett beers I have made, the lag has been about 12 h, but then I have used a 1/10 volume starter using stir bar + free acess to air + calciumcarbonate as pH stabilizer to get it very active and dense.
/Carl
....
danger... I'm 100% positive that there is only one Brett strain in Orval. What Victory was seeing originally was polymorphism that exists in that strain. At Victory they are using the "orval" strain for everything as I understand from my conversations. I know it's what they use in wild devil and have insight to a few more projects Whitney Thompson is working on in the lab over there. They have found the Orval Brett strain to work well in primary though.
The polymorphism seen in the Orval strain (which can also bee seen in the WL brux strain) forms colonies that are beige and pearly white. Upon re-streaking they are always the same single organism just have the tendency to form colonies of two different shades. I've observed it on MYPG, and UBA media.
CarlT.. I have plated out orval dregs 4 times and never found Sacch. Its always the same exact single strain. I know some of the bottles have been older but nothing over a year. I really don't think they add Sacch. anymore. I have not visited the abbey but I understand how they keep things simple and have a good understanding of the technology they use, I'm almost certain that there is not Sacch used and probably hasn't been for a good couple of years. If you have found it recently that's pretty cool, and maybe I'll purchase a few newer bottles and give it a try again, but I've been stumped everytime..
...
ChadY:
The last time I plated from a Bottle was about 1.5 years ago from an approx 6 months old bottle. The bottle was bought in Sweden (I'm Swedish) and stored cold most of the time.
The designation as Saccharomyces was judged based on:
1) Typical (and extremely homogenous) Saccharomyces ovoid morphology, size and budding pattern seen under microscope.
2) Growth behaviour and colony morphology.
3) Smell and taste evaluation from a small fermentation batch. The smell is spicy (clove/black pepper) with fruitiness leaning more towards pears/ripe apples rather than banana.
According to "Brew Like a Monk", Orval is "..dosed with the primary yeast.." for bottle refermentation.
The other strain found was typical Brettanomyces, with irregular elongated morphology, small size, fuzzy colony morphology, and typical Brett smell & taste. Pure fermentations using this strain has been varying for me, with both smoky/goaty as well as more fruity results. When used as a secondary fermenter in bottles (Orval style), it gives a very "Orvalish" result, starting rather unpleasant with goat/urine changing within some moths to a pleasant fruitiness + horse blanket smell.
Give it a try again using a fresh bottle (sometimes pubs/bars is the better place to buy at, since they tend to store bottles dark+cold right after getting them from the importer).
/Carl
