OOPS... I have a sour ale! What happened?!?!?!?

[DamnRedhead]

Hey all,
We homebrew in the office, a nice 15 gallon electric setup, and got our first bad beer in 3+ years; a pumpkin ale. Through primary fermentation it smelled nice and sweet, we tasted it, it was on point. I wasn't there when the rest of the team racked it to secondary (after 3 weeks), however I was told they sanitized as usual (they're good about that), and used the boil kettle as a temporary location before putting it back in the conical.

I kegged it on Monday (another week and a half... about a month total) and it was a little sour, but since I haven't ever had this recipe before, I actually thought it was good. We taste tested it yesterday and it was still sour, to the point the existing team said it was undrinkable. What happened?

There were no signs of infection... nothing unusual on the top when fermenting, it was still clear when kegging, etc. Any thoughts?

Currently it's in kegs and sitting... would it be better to let it sit in the fridge or at room temp?

 

[GHBWNY]

Had a similar thing happen to a Maple Nut Brown recently. Tasted fantastic at end of primary. Racked to secondary on top of the same (but raw) maple syrup I used in the boil. Even @ bottling it still tasted good. After conditioning, every bottle was sour. 4 months later --- still is. I racked (NPI) my brain to know what happened and determined that it must have ingested a bug from the raw maple syrup @ secondary. And like yours, there were absolutely no signs of infection. Maybe there don't need to be for it to be there. As far as it being safe to drink, I've drunk mine, but it's not a pleasant experience. As long as it's not making someone sick, I guess it's OK to drink.

 

[Gus_13]

There won't always be obvious signs of infection. What I would say is that there was ample time for exposure when it was put back into the kettle. Lots of surface area there. This is the primary reason I don't secondary beers. At the homebrew level there isn't much reason to.

IMO there was either something in the kettle or the beer was exposed to the air somewhere to get an infection. If it is sour then you are looking at a lacto or pedio infection more than likely. If it was brett or wild sacc you'd have a more acetic (read vinegar) type flavor and aroma.

I would find out more about how they sanitized, including the kettle. I would also probably just leave it in primary for the entire time. That reduces the risk of infection for me. I brew a lot of sour and funky beers and haven't had any crossover infections into my clean brewing.

 

[stratslinger]

Hey all,
...however I was told they sanitized as usual (they're good about that), and used the boil kettle as a temporary location before putting it back in the conical...

This bit to me sounds like you might be missing part of the point of a conical, and is a likely vector for infection.

One of the primary reasons to use a conical to to take advantage of the dump valve. Dump after a few hours to a couple days to dump any kettle trub, then dump once primary fermentation is complete to get rid of the yeast cake, then rack to whatever packaging you go with once it's done conditioning. Unless you have a conical that doesn't have a dump port (?), you shouldn't need to rack like you described...

 

[ACbrewer]

Sanitation is a non technical term, but generally it is to imply a destruction of 99.9+% of the germs, but not 100% (see sterilization, technical meaning for that).... if there were Oh 100K germs, and you killed 99.9%, that would leave 100 of them to slowly, then rapidly grow in the remaining sugar. If the kettle wasn't sanitized enough... and then the conical wasn't? yeah that could allow you a lot of exposure. With a conical, I'd not bother to 2ndary my self.

Had a similar thing happen to a Maple Nut Brown recently. Tasted fantastic at end of primary. Racked to secondary on top of the same (but raw) maple syrup I used in the boil. Even @ bottling it still tasted good. After conditioning, every bottle was sour. 4 months later --- still is. I racked (NPI) my brain to know what happened and determined that it must have ingested a bug from the raw maple syrup @ secondary. And like yours, there were absolutely no signs of infection. Maybe there don't need to be for it to be there. As far as it being safe to drink, I've drunk mine, but it's not a pleasant experience. As long as it's not making someone sick, I guess it's OK to drink.

GHBWNY - the maple syrup. It is highly doubtful the syrup was the direct factor, although it would have contributed raw sugar to work with. maple syrup is to dry for bacteria growth (like honey). And it is boiled in production.

One Homebrew magazine had an article on bacteria in HB. They got some HB bottles from brewers and sent them out to be tested. ALL .... ALL came back with some bacteria levels. - which means no matter how good our sanitation is, we have some. Every time we add a new surface (2ndary, etc) we add a new batch of bacteria into the system.

 

[DamnRedhead]

Ahh alright, thanks y'all. I also think that going into an electric kettle there were so many nooks and crannies where bacteria could hide.

stratslinger: I just read up on this and that's certainly something I'm gonna recommend we try moving forward. I'm rather new to the company and have only ever used carboys at home.

 

[GHBWNY]

GHBWNY - the maple syrup. It is highly doubtful the syrup was the direct factor, although it would have contributed raw sugar to work with. maple syrup is to dry for bacteria growth (like honey). And it is boiled in production.

Thanks for the reply. Agree that while the syrup was boiled in production, this was home-grown syrup from a friend who packages his own. Like I said, I used it in the boil and it tasted great after primary, and even after using it raw in secondary. Then the beer went south from there. Not only sour, but alcohol-y tasting, too.

 

[stratslinger]

I get that it's not "commercial" syrup... but he's right: unless it was a "cheater" simple syrup, it was indeed made by boiling the crap out of a buncha sap for several hours. It's literally the only way to make the stuff.

 

[ACbrewer]

Thanks for the reply. Agree that while the syrup was boiled in production, this was home-grown syrup from a friend who packages his own. Like I said, I used it in the boil and it tasted great after primary, and even after using it raw in secondary. Then the beer went south from there. Not only sour, but alcohol-y tasting, too.

It is still to dry to grow bacteria. Depending on how it is packaged, I bet it is even less likely to have bacteria than honey. It is shelf stable for years. It would however provide sugars for an existing infection.

Any infection came in on the surfaces that the foods touched. The syrup container, the secondary, the transfer gear, etc. Somewhere above an OG of 1.150 (about 20 brix) a solution has to much sugar and not enough water for bacteria to grow in it. I don't know where the limit exactly, but syrup is about 55% sugar and 45% water, honey is like 75%/25% at these levels, they are to dry for the bacteria to grow in.

 

[hottpeper13]

If your kettle has a weldless fitting I would suspect that, and add a ball valve to it and your screwed as far as sanitizing it. I took apart my valve for the first time(now ~4 times a year) and found hops packed between the seals and ball. I think running boiling wort thru there for 20 min is why I don't contaminated. Why do you think pros use butterfly valves?

 

[GHBWNY]

It is still to dry to grow bacteria. Depending on how it is packaged, I bet it is even less likely to have bacteria than honey. It is shelf stable for years. It would however provide sugars for an existing infection.

Any infection came in on the surfaces that the foods touched. The syrup container, the secondary, the transfer gear, etc. Somewhere above an OG of 1.150 (about 20 brix) a solution has to much sugar and not enough water for bacteria to grow in it. I don't know where the limit exactly, but syrup is about 55% sugar and 45% water, honey is like 75%/25% at these levels, they are to dry for the bacteria to grow in.

Totally understand about the syrup itself being incapable of infection. And if even used raw in secondary, same. Since it came out of secondary tasting OK, and then sour after bottle-conditioning, I guess it's not rocket science to infer there was a sanitation loophole somewhere in the bottling process. I am very meticulous with sanitation as far as cleaning bottles. And since EVERY bottle has the sourness to it, I have to wonder if I got a little lazy when it came to cleaning/sanitizing the bottling bucket, spigot, wand, racking cane? Interesting that the batch right after this one -- a dunkelweizen -- also has a residual sourness to it, not before, but AFTER bottle-conditioning. Hmm... Maybe time for a major equipment overhaul before the next batch?

 

[ACbrewer]

Interesting that the batch right after this one -- a dunkelweizen -- also has a residual sourness to it, not before, but AFTER bottle-conditioning. Hmm... Maybe time for a major equipment overhaul before the next batch?

It could be time.. I figure if my racking equipment looks cloudy or something time to go get new stuff. I don't know which piece - bucket, tubing, cane, etc but Id say yes get new stuff.

 

[GHBWNY]

It could be time.. I figure if my racking equipment looks cloudy or something time to go get new stuff. I don't know which piece - bucket, tubing, cane, etc but Id say yes get new stuff.

Let's see... that means a trip to the LHBS, and chances are I'll need ingred's for another batch and probably some other stuff I don't need. Well, OK --- if I must.