Oktoberfest - Yeast Question

[Will_the-new-brewer]

There is a recipe kit that I have for an AG Oktoberfest beer and I want to try it as my first (since I have brewed the same beer's LME recipe version. The main question I have is about yeast...I tried making a starter that didn't go well, so I ended up using the last two WLP029s that I had in my last extract brew. I have nothing but US05 and T58 (for my belgian beers). Will this recipe be okay with US05? Will I lose flavors using US05 that I had with WLP029?

11lbs 2-row
8oz Caravienne
8oz Abbey
8oz Caramunich
1oz Perle
1oz Mt. Hood

 

[hawkbox]

Not sure but it's a safe bet to use. I'm probably going to make one using OYL-061 cause it's my new favourite.

 

[IslandLizard]

Oktoberfests are Lagers, using Pilsner malts and fermented with a Lager/Pilsner yeast at low temps (48-54F) followed by a Diacetyl rest and a long lagering period (4-24 weeks at near freezing temps).

If you want to brew it as an ale (using 2-row) and ferment it as a "hybrid" (using WLP029) or an ale using an ale yeast like US-05, you lose a lot of the intended character an Oktoberfest has to offer. If you can accept that loss, go for it! Doing it that way, chances are you'll be able to actually drink it by mid October if bottled, early October if kegged.

What went wrong with your WLP029 (Hybrid/Kolsch) starters?

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

Oktoberfests are Lagers, using Pilsner malts and fermented with a Lager/Pilsner yeast at low temps (48-54F) followed by a Diacetyl rest and a long lagering period (4-24 weeks at near freezing temps).

If you want to brew it as an ale (using 2-row) and ferment it as a "hybrid" (using WLP029) or an ale using an ale yeast like US-05, you lose a lot of the intended character an Oktoberfest has to offer. If you can accept that loss, go for it! Doing it that way, chances are you'll be able to actually drink it by mid October if bottled, early October if kegged.

What went wrong with your WLP029 (Hybrid/Kolsch) starters?

I am new to brewing so thank you for pointing out the oddities of the recipe--it is a kit that I am using. Once I am more comfy using AG, I will buy more "oktoberfest" ingredients.

 

[IslandLizard]

I am new to brewing so thank you for pointing out the oddities of the recipe--it is a kit that I am using. Once I am more comfy using AG, I will buy more "oktoberfest" ingredients.

It takes a few times to get comfy with your AG brewing, getting your volumes and efficiency (gravities) sorted out being the main ones. Do your research and take your time, read around, ask Qs, use "common" sense, you'll do alright.

There's a lot of process that determines the outcome of beer. Controlling fermentation temps is probably one of the most important factors. An old refrigerator or freezer with a temp controller makes that easy, although a swamp cooler works fine too. Aside from such freezer, in the coolest area of the house I still use a large Igloo cooler that fits 2 brew buckets, filled up with cold water right before the filled fermentor buckets start to become buoyant. Dope that water jacket with some frozen water bottles every day and you can easily keep it at 65-67F. Throw a thick sleeping bag over the whole setup to keep the cold in.

Although it's pure marketing hype (also known as creating an illusion) to call a kit like yours "Oktoberfest," where most of the ingredients and process don't belong in an Oktoberfest style, we realize that most kit buyers don't have lager fermentation capabilities, or the patience to wait for (proper) lagering. At least you'll make beer, and with some care (e.g., temp control) and diligence (e.g., omit secondaries, prevent oxidation) it will be very good beer too.

Again, do you want to elaborate what went wrong with your WLP029 (Hybrid/Kolsch) starters? We can probably help you with that.

I had a few "Lagers" and Kolsches at a homebrewers event this weekend that were fermented with WLP029. They were very yummy and extremely drinkable, as in kicked kegs.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

So aside from what has already been said, when I want to brew an ale version of a lager grain bill, I do often use US-05 (Actually I use WLP 001, but it's the same base yeast in liquid form). It is a pretty clean fermenting general purpose yeast good for almost anything. Especially if you ferment it on the cooler side (upper 60's), it shouldn't produce too much in the way of esters.

Now on to the grain bill. I know this is a "Mocktoberfest", but your grain bill is way off for what one would expect to see. First, you have too many specialty malts. German beers (and therefore German-style imitations) should rarely have more than one to two specialty malts.You have three, two of which are cara malts. It's going to end up a muddy-tasting mess.

My two cents (listen or ignore as you will - just trying to help you make a better Oktoberfest style beer):
1: Ditch the Abbey malt. It has no place in this beer. None whatsoever.
2: Ditch the CaraVienne. You are already going to be using Caramunich, which will overpower the CaraVienne. There is no reason to have two different caramalts. I know you've done some Belgian style beers, but German and Belgian beers are very different. In German beers, the KISS principle rules. If you are ditching the CaraVienne and Abbey, you can increase the CaraMunich to maybe 12 oz.
3: Add a healthy portion of Munich malt. It can be Minuch I (light) or Munich II (dark), but an Oktoberfest without Munich malt is just...something else. Add at least 2 lb, or go up to 6-8 lb.
4: Not critical, but I suggest you use at least some pilsner malt in place of the two-row. You can get away with the 2-row though if that's what you have on hand.
5: Your hops choices are okay for a Mocktoberfest. Just keep them on the barely noticeable side. This should be a malty beer, not hoppy.

So if I may, using the recipe you posted as a base (I assume you have some of those ingredients on hand), here is how I would recommend reworking it:

6 lbs 2-row
6 lb Munich (I or II, your choice - depending if you want more bready (I) or pretzel-y (II))
12 oz Caramunich II
1oz Perle
1oz Mt. Hood
US-05

Hey, you asked for advice...

 

[Lefou]

... or German Pilsner, and a ratio of Munich 10 and Vienna for an all barley beer.
Shoot for an OG of 1.054-1.057. I'm going to use this mix with Hallertau Hersbrucker/Tettnanger along with WLP830.
FWIW, Festbiers are in stores on the East Coast. Just for fun, I grabbed a fresh six of Hofbrau and it compares favorably to my favorite Wiesn. Some of the best beer in the world and well worth cloning.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

My personal O'Fest Recipe, which has won an award and scored in the 40's is on the lighter (in color) end of the Festbier spectrum, but it is:
6 lb Pilsner Malt
4 lb Vienna Malt
2 lb Munich II Malt
4 oz Caramunich
Tett and Spalt to about 22 IBU
WLP 820

 

[JimRausch]

Will this recipe be okay with US05?

If you can't/don't want to make a starter with liquid yeast, then I would pick up and use two packets of 34/70 dry yeast. Keep it at lager temps, or slightly above(high 50's to low 60s), cold condition it for 3-6 weeks after fermentation, and voila you made a lager!

 

[JimRausch]

My personal O'Fest Recipe, which has won an award and scored in the 40's is on the lighter (in color) end of the Festbier spectrum, but it is:
6 lb Pilsner Malt
4 lb Vienna Malt
2 lb Munich II Malt
4 oz Caramunich
Tett and Spalt to about 22 IBU
WLP 820

Very similar to my recipe, although I use 4 oz each of Caramunich 2 and Caramunich3, and also 4-6 oz. Melanoidin malt. And I might use Hersbrucker and Tettanger.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Very similar to my recipe, although I use 4 oz each of Caramunich 2 and Caramunich3, and also 4-6 oz. Melanoidin malt. And I might use Hersbrucker and Tettanger.

I usually tell beginners stay away from melanoidin because it is almost invariably overused (I've seen people use a pound of it and ruin an otherwise good beer).
That said, if you've dialed it in and like what it contributes, it can add a nice touch.

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

Again, do you want to elaborate what went wrong with your WLP029 (Hybrid/Kolsch) starters? We can probably help you with that.

Keeping in mind that it was my first starter--

I don't think I stirred enough. To be honest, I made it before going to bed, didn't stir when I woke up, went to work, and remembered it when I got home. By that time, it had sat for about almost 24 hrs. When I shook it a bit, I did see "bubbles"...and some thick white substance (yeast cake?) at the bottom, but it never showed any activity otherwise. Additionally, the yeast wasn't past it's date, but within a month. Other considerations I was processing:
The yeast was shipped in (I live in Guam) and wasn't exactly cold when I got it (took just over 4 days).
I don't have ingredients onhand to make another 5g batch
This batch is for an event and I had one shot to get it right
I had two WLP029 packets that I just bought when I was in Ohio (used Yeti/icepack to keep cold on return trip).

Since then, I found a computer fan and harddrive magnet laying around the house along with a DC power adapter. I ordered the stir bar and plan to make a stir plate.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeast is pretty resilient, even 1 month from "exp. date" it contains billions of good viable cells, unless it was literally cooked in transit.

Yeast needs oxygen to propagate (grow new cells through budding), hence the swirling, shaking, stir plate, etc. If original cell count is lowish, a step up starter is then recommended, it takes a few days to multiply, but it will get there. It may take a week, or even 2 to get enough yeast for a 5 or 10 gallon pitch.

If you have access to O2 (welding tank) bubbling some O2 through the wort every few hours or at least twice a day will get you similar results without perpetual shaking or stirring. Using a .5 micron pore "oxygenation stone" helps achieve that faster. The accumulation of a layer of yeast on the bottom is a good gauge to her "growth" progress.

Don't throw that yeast out, let it propagate for using next time. WLP029 is much preferred over US-05 for "lager type ales" (hybrids, like Kolsch).

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

Don't throw that yeast out, let it propagate for using next time. WLP029 is much preferred over US-05 for "lager type ales" (hybrids, like Kolsch).

I actually haven't thrown it out yet because I wanted to see what happens to it. I think it's been sitting out for about a week now...is it still good? You think I should throw it in the fridge and reuse later?

 

[IslandLizard]

I actually haven't thrown it out yet because I wanted to see what happens to it. I think it's been sitting out for about a week now...is it still good? You think I should throw it in the fridge and reuse later?

Yeast should always be stored in the fridge, unless it's fermenting something (including starters).

If that's a 1/2 liter jar, you don't have much yeast in there. It definitely needs stepping up drastically. Put the yeast in fridge and build that stir plate. Do you have a 2 liter (flat bottomed) flask?

There is another yeast propagation method. Look up "shaken not stirred" yeast starter. You'd need a 4-5 liter jug.

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

K. Thanks. It is a quart Mason jar (basically a liter). Will fridge it and build stirplate as over the weekend (stir magnet should get in early next week).

I do not have a flask...but will see if I can find one somewhere as well. Will also look up the shaken, not stirred method.

Thanks for the help.

 

[IslandLizard]

Some glass jugs or jars have a flat enough bottom so the stir bean remains in place, and won't be thrown. A strong coupling with the spinning magnet is crucial, get the spinning magnet as close to the bean as possible. You can test with such a jug or jar with water. 2-3 liter flasks and jars are a good size for stir plates. Some can go larger.

Flasks are preferred for their flat bottom, shape, and narrow-ish mouth. I can't fit any larger flasks than the 2 liter size in my kitchen fridge for cold crashing, without removing a shelf, which has consequences for everything stored on that...
So I make multiple 2 liter starters if I need more yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

K. Thanks. It is a quart Mason jar (basically a liter). Will fridge it and build stirplate as over the weekend (stir magnet should get in early next week).

I do not have a flask...but will see if I can find one somewhere as well. Will also look up the shaken, not stirred method.

Thanks for the help.

If that 1/2" yeast layer on the bottom of your liter mason jar is the yield after making a 1 liter starter from 2 (?) packs, you didn't get much growth. Could be because the yeast packs you got were old. Also a liter starter is kinda small for 2 packs, unless you do a step up. Use a Yeast Calculator such as HomeBrewDad's, to calculate cells needed, and how much starter volume or how many step starters you need to make that happen.

There are many stickies and threads on how to make yeast starters, read them, inform yourself. Same for stir plates.

 

[casualbrewer]

Use 34/70. Can ferment near ale temps and be clean.

 

[Will_the-new-brewer]

If that 1/2" yeast layer on the bottom of your liter mason jar is the yield after making a 1 liter starter from 2 (?) packs, you didn't get much growth. Could be because the yeast packs you got were old. Also a liter starter is kinda small for 2 packs, unless you do a step up.

Sorry for confusion, it was 1 packet of yeast in that jar.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry for confusion, it was 1 packet of yeast in that jar.

Read this post I just made, very much related to your case.