OK, why am I struggling with Low Hop Aroma and Flavor in IPAs?

[Proday137]

I've been having a difficult time getting a really saturated hop profile in my IPAs, despite using a LOT of hops per batch. I feel like I've got a good process for brew day, and eliminated most of the obvious issues which could compromise a hoppy beer. Still, I'm finding that those big aromas and flavors found in the best IPAs are eluding me.

Here's some background on my process for a 5 gallon batch:

1. I use 50% distilled water and 50% filtered tap water as a base for my brewing water to cut down on the amount of bicarbonate I have to deal with. I use a Campden tablet to ensure I'm removing all chlorine/chloramine, and I add gypsum to reach ~200 ppm sulfate. I've heard of using considerably more sulfate in IPAs, but my research has led me to understand the primary effect of doing so is a drier, sharper finish. I'm satisfied with the dryness of my beer, so I haven't felt that this is necessary.

2. I tend to mash high (156F) so I can minimize my use of crystal malts and hit an appropriate terminal gravity (1.015). I use a RIMS system to perform my mash. This seems to do a good job producing clear wort with the correct fermentation characteristics. I target 5.4 for my mash pH and 5.6 for my sparge water pH, and I usually hit those targets. The pH of my beer post-boil is usually around 5.4.

3. For an IPA, I usually target a 1.068 wort and keep the grain bill simple. I use mainly 2-row with perhaps 8% crystal malt in the 20-40L range.

4. I do a fairly typical boil hopping schedule for a West Coast IPA. 35 IBU at 60mins, another 15-20 IBU at 15 mins, another 8-10 IBU at 5 mins. I use whirlfloc at 5 mins, and fermcap-S to prevent boilovers.

5. I do a big flameout addition--4 or 5oz of citrusy, high-oil hops. I recirculate the wort with a centrifugal pump for about 20-30 mins, then chill with a counterflow chiller.

6. I ferment in sealed stainless steel buckets according to a standard ale fermentation schedule, cold crash, and then rack the beer into a purged keg containing 5oz of dry hops in a stainless steel mesh container. I let the beer sit on the dry hops at room temperature for 5 days before transferring into a second keg. From there I force-carbonate and serve.

A few observations/hypotheses about what could be happening:
--I don't think the issue is oxidation, since I've never observed any darkening of the beer, candy-sweet malt flavors, cheesy hops, or the like. I'm very careful to exclude oxygen from my process.
--I wonder if there is something counterproductive about my dry-hopping process. My gravity samples often seem quite aromatic, but that character seems absent from the finished beer. I've heard anecdotally that too many dry hops could be as bad as too few. Could I somehow scrubbing hop oils out of the beer by introducing a large charge of dry hops? Maybe multiple smaller additions are the way to go?
--I've heard references to pumps negatively affecting hop flavor--could my practice of recirculating the wort during my whirlpool be destroying the hop character?
--My hops look and smell fine, but maybe they're just not fresh enough? I store them in vacuum-sealed bags in the freezer, but I buy them by the pound and take ~6 months to go through a bag.

This is getting discouraging--I feel like my process is good and people like my beers, but I'm not satisfied. It's not just me--my IPAs keep getting (deservedly) mediocre events in competitions because they don't have enough flavor and aroma. I'd love to hear the community's thoughts on this one! What should I do differently?

 

[TimBrewz]

Sounds like you are doing most everything right. I’d say it’s possible that your dry hop technique is the issue. Layering the additions (1-2 Oz x3-4 additions) is what I do and it works well. Also the transfers could be causing some of the volatile aromatics to be lost/ or your dry hop cylinder is just not giving you the contact you need. Maybe try a batch where you just dryhop directly in primary- no bags or filters.

I stopped using any finings such as whirlfloc also and though the beers are not quite as clear, you might experience a bit more aromatics as more proteins are in suspension, holding some hop compounds. Since you are doing rims, your wort is already clear so you won’t see much change IMO.

Finally, I had been using campden at a much too high concentration, which gave my beers a hard to pinpoint lack of “pop”. After reading up on it, it seems like one campden tab is enough to treat 50 plus gallons of water. Try using just 1/4 tab next time. The potassium bimetasulfite is meant to kill yeast in wine, and has been appropriated by Brewers to get rid of chloradimines.

Good luck!
Tim

 

[GoeHaarden]

How many IPAs have you made that have turned out like this? All batches using the same vacuum sealed hops? Maybe they're not as fresh as you think? Maybe try buying some fresh hops and try again. Otherwise, you should be getting some pretty good flavor and aroma with those late and dry hop additions.

EDIT: I just re-read this, and you said you dry hop after you cold crash? Maybe this!? I've never dry hopped after I cold crash, and I usually just add my dry hops at day 5-7 of fermentation.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Never mind, wrong forum. I've been drinking.

 

[danielthemaniel]

It sounds to me that you are doing a lot right and I would be frustrated too! A change worth considering would be to add the dry hops in your primary, then cold crash then keg, carb and serve. Hope you find some a good solution!

 

[GPP33]

Drop your mash temps. 1.015 is a little high for an IPA, I usually get about 1.010. Have also read a lot of places that a lower mash PH could help. I target 4.2.

Do you cool the wort before the 20-30 minute whirlpool? If not your’re loosing aroma and flavor.

You ARE introducing oxygen during the cold crash and transfer, the things you mentioned are extreme effects of oxidation. If I cold crash it’s under CO2 pressure. When I transfer it’s into a keg that was filled to the brim with starsan and pushed out with CO2, it doesn’t get opened until the beer is all gone. Also figure out a technique to do a closed transfer, the CO2 that is displaced in the keg feeds back into the fermenter so no oxygen gets in.

I used to dry hop in the keg, I now do it in primary. Again, no reason to open the keg and your beer gets better contact with the hops.

How are you controlling ferm temps? Any additional flavors from the yeast can mask the hops. I hold IPAs at 63-65 for the first 3-4 days then ramp to 70 over a few more days.

My IPAs are way better today than they were a few years ago. Each improvement in the process brings a little that by itself probably isn’t noticeable but all added together can make a big difference. I’ve also found that if I want to get the same bitterness as a commercial advertised at 50 IBUs I need to target about 70-75 in beer smith. If you’re trying to get about 70 you might want to try targeting 90 or 100.

 

[Smellyglove]

Try starting with closed loop transfers into a keg which what GPP33 above her described, a keg which has been pushed empty of starsan. Simply purging it doesn't do much unless you have a ton of co2 to use and would like to use it.

Dryhop in your primary. You're doing two transfers and just purging the keg. That's one transfer to many, for me at least.

More hops in one charge doesn't equal more aroma flavor. If there's so much hops from in your DH charge chances are some of them will float on top of the rest of the hops. You'll get to a point where you'll se diminishing returns, if you've not already reached it.

Do some experimenting with temperature and time when it comes to contact-time with dryhops. Temperature matters and time matters. If you experiment enough at one temperature you'll find that 12 hrs contact time +/- makes a difference.

With a good oxygen/timing/temperature procedure you'll end up using less hops, with more effect than with a bad oxygen procedure and wrong temps/contact time for what you want.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'd change a few things. 8% crystal in a 1.068 beer is quite a lot. Not 'wrong' if you're looking for a sweetish beer, but coupled with the high mash temp will give a maltier/sweeter finish than most IPAs. I'd target 5% or less.
The others have already been mentioned - put your hops in warm/primary, not after cold crashing (dry hopping cold beer gives a more subtle, less grassy hop character - not really IPAish). Beware of oxygen during transfers.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Drop your mash temps. 1.015 is a little high for an IPA, I usually get about 1.010. Have also read a lot of places that a lower mash PH could help. I target 4.2.

pH target - 4.2, or 5.2?

 

[GPP33]

5.2 Sorry.

 

[Smellyglove]

Imo the mash target pH is the last thing to look at given the information so far. Theres bigger winnings at looking at the other factors. High mash pH will affect the taste of the malts more than the hops imo.

 

[Proday137]

You ARE introducing oxygen during the cold crash and transfer, the things you mentioned are extreme effects of oxidation. If I cold crash it’s under CO2 pressure. When I transfer it’s into a keg that was filled to the brim with starsan and pushed out with CO2, it doesn’t get opened until the beer is all gone. Also figure out a technique to do a closed transfer, the CO2 that is displaced in the keg feeds back into the fermenter so no oxygen gets in.

Sorry for not clarifying--this is *exactly* my procedure for purging a keg. I use stainless steel fermenters with a valve on the bottom, so I'm able to use the pressure in the keg to purge the transfer line before I hook it up. I seal the fermenter ahead of the cold crash procedure, then use CO2 to flood the headspace above the beer during transfer. I highly, highly doubt oxidation is the problem here.

I think you're right that modifying the dry hop procedure is a good avenue of first approach, however. Specifically, I think the narrow confines of the dry hopper may be limiting my extraction potential. I'm thinking 3oz. of dry hops with a few gravity points to go in primary, followed by a couple more hops in the dry hopper in keg, followed by a transfer to another purged keg, might be the way to go.

 

[Proday137]

Sounds like you are doing most everything right. I’d say it’s possible that your dry hop technique is the issue. Layering the additions (1-2 Oz x3-4 additions) is what I do and it works well. Also the transfers could be causing some of the volatile aromatics to be lost/ or your dry hop cylinder is just not giving you the contact you need. Maybe try a batch where you just dryhop directly in primary- no bags or filters.

I stopped using any finings such as whirlfloc also and though the beers are not quite as clear, you might experience a bit more aromatics as more proteins are in suspension, holding some hop compounds. Since you are doing rims, your wort is already clear so you won’t see much change IMO.

Finally, I had been using campden at a much too high concentration, which gave my beers a hard to pinpoint lack of “pop”. After reading up on it, it seems like one campden tab is enough to treat 50 plus gallons of water. Try using just 1/4 tab next time. The potassium bimetasulfite is meant to kill yeast in wine, and has been appropriated by Brewers to get rid of chloradimines.

Good luck!
Tim

I like this advice and plan to try more, smaller dry hop additions.

 

[ong]

I have gotten rid of *all* crystal malt for hoppy beers. If I want a little more sweetness I mash higher.

You say you do a big “flameout” addition. I would consider moving this to a hop steep starting after the wort drops to around 175-180°. In fact, I only do two brew day additions now: one at 60 to hit my IBU target, and one as a 45 minute steep around 175°.

Finally, a lot of people won’t agree with this, but I *always* keg hop IPAs. I’ll do my dry hop in primary, then a few oz in the keg, either in a mesh bag or a stainless mesh sleeve. Some people maintain this gives grassy flavors, but to me it really punches up the aroma to where I want it. I tend to use cryo hops for this to minimize vegetal flavors.

 

[GPP33]

Sorry for not clarifying--this is *exactly* my procedure for purging a keg. I use stainless steel fermenters with a valve on the bottom, so I'm able to use the pressure in the keg to purge the transfer line before I hook it up. I seal the fermenter ahead of the cold crash procedure, then use CO2 to flood the headspace above the beer during transfer. I highly, highly doubt oxidation is the problem here.

I think you're right that modifying the dry hop procedure is a good avenue of first approach, however. Specifically, I think the narrow confines of the dry hopper may be limiting my extraction potential. I'm thinking 3oz. of dry hops with a few gravity points to go in primary, followed by a couple more hops in the dry hopper in keg, followed by a transfer to another purged keg, might be the way to go.

Why the second transfer? And how are you purging the kegs? Doing the fill with starsan and push it out trick is easy one and done, if there’s dry hops in there you can’t do that. If you are just filling with CO2 and releasing the pressure you need to pressurize to 30psi and release the pressure about 10 times to get to 99.9% CO2 (higher pressure = fewer times, lower pressure = more times). That’s a lot of wasted CO2. I quit doing dry hops in the keg at the same time that I started doing completely closed transfers so I’m not sure if the free floating hops in primary or less O2 was a bigger factor for me but I certainly think together they helped the beer.

 

[Proday137]

Why the second transfer? And how are you purging the kegs? Doing the fill with starsan and push it out trick is easy one and done, if there’s dry hops in there you can’t do that. If you are just filling with CO2 and releasing the pressure you need to pressurize to 30psi and release the pressure about 10 times to get to 99.9% CO2 (higher pressure = fewer times, lower pressure = more times). That’s a lot of wasted CO2. I quit doing dry hops in the keg at the same time that I started doing completely closed transfers so I’m not sure if the free floating hops in primary or less O2 was a bigger factor for me but I certainly think together they helped the beer.

My standard practice with kegs is to clean, fill with sanitizer, push the sanitizer out with CO2, and store the pressurized, sanitized keg for future use. When I dry hop in the keg I open it up, drop in the dry hop cylinder, and repressurize/purge several times.

The second transfer is from the dry-hopping keg into a fresh keg for serving. I don't like the grassy/astringent flavors I get from dry hopping for extended periods in the serving keg.

This is fairly CO2 intensive, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[doug293cz]

... When I dry hop in the keg I open it up, drop in the dry hop cylinder, and repressurize/purge several times.

...

How many purges and at what pressure? If you open the keg and insert a dry hop container, you have to assume that you have mixed up the headspace, and it is now air with very little CO2. It takes 13 purge cycles at 30 psi to get into the 100 ppb O2 range.

You also have to consider that the hop container is carrying in a lot of O2, and just purging the headspace isn't going to be completely effective at getting this out. If you want to dry hop in the keg without introducing O2, you should put the hops in the keg at the start of fermentation and then purge the keg with the CO2 generated during fermentation. You'll want a blow-off trap between the fermenter and keg, so if you do get krausen blow-off, it doesn't make it to the keg. This technique can get you extremely low O2 in the keg, and you never have to open the keg once purged.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

I've been having a difficult time getting a really saturated hop profile in my IPAs, despite using a LOT of hops per batch. I feel like I've got a good process for brew day, and eliminated most of the obvious issues which could compromise a hoppy beer. Still, I'm finding that those big aromas and flavors found in the best IPAs are eluding me.

Here's some background on my process for a 5 gallon batch:

1. I use 50% distilled water and 50% filtered tap water as a base for my brewing water to cut down on the amount of bicarbonate I have to deal with. I use a Campden tablet to ensure I'm removing all chlorine/chloramine, and I add gypsum to reach ~200 ppm sulfate. I've heard of using considerably more sulfate in IPAs, but my research has led me to understand the primary effect of doing so is a drier, sharper finish. I'm satisfied with the dryness of my beer, so I haven't felt that this is necessary.

2. I tend to mash high (156F) so I can minimize my use of crystal malts and hit an appropriate terminal gravity (1.015). I use a RIMS system to perform my mash. This seems to do a good job producing clear wort with the correct fermentation characteristics. I target 5.4 for my mash pH and 5.6 for my sparge water pH, and I usually hit those targets. The pH of my beer post-boil is usually around 5.4.

3. For an IPA, I usually target a 1.068 wort and keep the grain bill simple. I use mainly 2-row with perhaps 8% crystal malt in the 20-40L range.

4. I do a fairly typical boil hopping schedule for a West Coast IPA. 35 IBU at 60mins, another 15-20 IBU at 15 mins, another 8-10 IBU at 5 mins. I use whirlfloc at 5 mins, and fermcap-S to prevent boilovers.

5. I do a big flameout addition--4 or 5oz of citrusy, high-oil hops. I recirculate the wort with a centrifugal pump for about 20-30 mins, then chill with a counterflow chiller.

6. I ferment in sealed stainless steel buckets according to a standard ale fermentation schedule, cold crash, and then rack the beer into a purged keg containing 5oz of dry hops in a stainless steel mesh container. I let the beer sit on the dry hops at room temperature for 5 days before transferring into a second keg. From there I force-carbonate and serve.

A few observations/hypotheses about what could be happening:
--I don't think the issue is oxidation, since I've never observed any darkening of the beer, candy-sweet malt flavors, cheesy hops, or the like. I'm very careful to exclude oxygen from my process.
--I wonder if there is something counterproductive about my dry-hopping process. My gravity samples often seem quite aromatic, but that character seems absent from the finished beer. I've heard anecdotally that too many dry hops could be as bad as too few. Could I somehow scrubbing hop oils out of the beer by introducing a large charge of dry hops? Maybe multiple smaller additions are the way to go?
--I've heard references to pumps negatively affecting hop flavor--could my practice of recirculating the wort during my whirlpool be destroying the hop character?
--My hops look and smell fine, but maybe they're just not fresh enough? I store them in vacuum-sealed bags in the freezer, but I buy them by the pound and take ~6 months to go through a bag.

This is getting discouraging--I feel like my process is good and people like my beers, but I'm not satisfied. It's not just me--my IPAs keep getting (deservedly) mediocre events in competitions because they don't have enough flavor and aroma. I'd love to hear the community's thoughts on this one! What should I do differently?

Raise the temperature of your kegerator. At too cold of temperature the aromatic oils do not evaporate from the beer and you can't smell them. It might only take 5 degrees to make a difference. You are not making a Bud LIte which needs to be served ice cold because nobody can stand the taste if it is warm. You are making a homebrew with real flavor.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Reading through this the first thing that popped for me was that it sounds like you're whirlpool is with unchilled wort. At 200+ degrees, you're still isomerizing a lot and you'll be getting more bitterness and less aroma/flavor from that addition. Are you bagging those hop additions too?

I let all my hops roam free in the wort. I plan for a slightly larger batch to account for the losses, but the flavors are better IMO. Also, I do a mix of whirlpool additions: FO (then immediately chill to 170, add more, then chill to 155 and add more.

Any hops that are sitting above 175 are getting significant isomerization, plus the late boil additions are still being isomerized too.

 

[portguy]

My flame out hops are in only when the wort is under 80 C (158 F). Even then i think aroma (and flavor) are lost. Bigger dry hop additions and hop tea is something i want to experiment with as a home brewer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Those stainless mesh type dry hop containers are way too constrictive! 5 oz per keg? Hop pellets expand tremendously.

Beer needs to flow unrestricted around and through the hop pulp inside to extract the hop oils. Have you opened those up after the dry hop and found dry pulp in the middle? The little beer that got to that area, never got out.

 

[palealerunner]

I have just tried a bottle of my latest brew, bottled on the 1st June, just as a tester and the hop aroma and flavour is amazing, definitely my best IPA yet.
I dry hopped with 50g each of Mosaic l, Citra and Nelson Sauvin over a period of 3 days adding a bit of each each day starting at the most active time during fermentation. They were pellet form that I put straight into the bucket loose. There they stayed for the full duration of fermentation- about 12 days in all.
I’m well pleased with the results and can’t wait to try another bottle in a couple of weeks.
The guy I bought the grain from was a bit surprised with my recipe but this is the second time it’s paid off! Going to have to give him a bottle to try.

 

[Smellyglove]

Whoah. Didn't catch that. If you're using hop bag or some sort of filter, stop doing it. If you're using a bag or a hop basket then you'll see diminishing returns fairly quickly. Then it's definitely about process and not recipe.

 

[IslandLizard]

Whoah. Didn't catch that. If you're using hop bag or some sort of filter, stop doing it. If you're using a bag or a hop basket then you'll see diminishing returns fairly quickly. Then it's definitely about process and not recipe.

On the dry hop side, definitely, restrictions impair extraction, especially when one relies on natural dispersion and convection currents to do the work. A good agitation every few hours can help tremendously extracting (rinsing) the goodness from those hops, as long as the beer can get to them easily.

In the kettle, if the brewer makes sure the bags or basket(s) aren't overstuffed, wort can flow in and out freely. Lifting and draining the baskets or bags from time to time (every 3-5 minutes) helps to refresh the "steeping" wort inside. It never boils inside a basket, spider or bag unless you stick an element in it.

I bag all my kettle hops and do the drain dance every few minutes. I haven't noticed any less hop extraction or less bitterness compared to letting them swim freely.

Comes time for flameout I can now chill that 6 gallons of wort down to 170F well within 2 minutes flat (plate chiller) to start a long hop whirlpool, again bagged with repeated lifting and draining, without having to tend to clogging of kettle filters and pump cavitation.

Brewing has become such a joy with those bagged hops, never having to fight those kettle filters again. Rebrewing the same recipe has become much more repeatable at the same time. Win-win on all fronts.

 

[portguy]

I have found that hop socks are too tight...i chose to dry hop in my BIAB bag. Hops are free! Free the hops!

 

[Aaron Beers]

From your description, it sounds like you're looking to increase the intensity of hop aroma. So some suggestions for that

1. You mention flame out hops. At flame out, the wort is really hot and hence will result in loss of some of the hop aroma of your addition. I would suggest you cool your wort to 140F, add the hops and whirlpool for 30 to 60 minutes. At that lower temperature, much more hop aroma will stay in the wort.

2. Use cryohops. They're awesome. The intensity of aroma is insane.

3. Use more hops. Combine with #2 and use more cryohops. You can get some pretty strong aroma.

4. Dry hop more than once. A couple days into fermentation, then again as fermentation is almost complete.

5. Keep your beer cold. As fermentation finishes, even if you're doing a second dryhop right around then, crash your beer and keep it cold indefinitely. If you're bottling, well... keg. Even when I bottle, I force carb, cold, in keg, then bottle off the keg. Warmth, even room temperature warmth, will decrease the lifetime of those hop aromas you're after.

 

[Bobo1898]

I know this is two years old, but I have the same problem 50% of the time and it's so frustrating.

When I'm brewing an IPA, I find myself using between 18-24 oz of hops per a 5 gallon batch, which I know is a little extreme, and still have issues.

1. During the whirlpool, 5-6oz @ 170-175 F for 30 minutes
2. First dry hop charge (3.5 - 5oz) is three to four days into Primary.
3. Primary is generally done within 8 days from brew day, so hops have been exposed for 4-5 days. Cold crash to 39 for 24 hours.
4. Fine with Biofine Clear (if West Coast) and let sit for another 2-3 days.
5. Second dry hop charge (another 3.5oz to 5oz) goes into a CO2 purged keg. Beer is racked on top of hops and sealed.

I burst carbonate and usually start drinking within 24-48 hours. 50% of the time, I get very faint or almost no aroma. The other 50%, it's bursting with joyful hoppiness. For the IPAs that don't have the aroma, they are always bursting with it before I transfer the beer to the keg. Then when I'm serving it, it's gone.

Also using stainless buckets. Primary starts, pending the beer/yeast, between 62 and 68 F and is held til first charge is added. Then it free rises to 72-73 F until completion/ready to cold crash.

Currently, I have a West Coast DIPA (started at 64 F) in my keg. I was serving it at 39 F, and had no aroma. I raised the kegerator temp to 45 F and it's a little better. Would the cold temp be the culprit? Should I try 50 degrees? I know beers like Pliny the Elder should be served between 50-55, but I've never held a keg at that temp.

It gets frustrating when I see other people say, you only really need 3-5 oz of hops, total, for dry hopping. I'm using double that amount and can't seem to break the hop aroma barrier.

To be clear, the 50% of the time that I do get aroma, it's from more of those juicy type of hops--Austrailian or New Zealand hops, but this was after I increased my dosage to 18-24oz. When using hops for a West Coast--traditional like CTZ, Simcoe, Centennial, Chinook, etc.--the aroma is minimal.

 

[Proday137]

I'll chime back in with an update.

This issue has gotten much better, likely because of several process tweaks I've implemented:

Mash pH. In the end I concluded mash pH isn't a huge determinant of hop aroma. However, in determining this I conducted experiments into the effect of mash pH and concluded I like the results at the lower end of the range. Now I target 5.2 and I'm not upset if it comes in lower than that.

Hop variety and format. Oil content and polyphenol content seem to be the key variables--I am trying to maximize the oil content that goes into the beer while managing the level of polyphenols in the beer. Some of the ways I've been doing this are:

1. Use a hop basket for the boil. I used to throw the hops in loose and I believe it was allowing too much leaf/vegetal material into the kettle. I've got one of the big 10-inch diameter ones that hangs over the side of the kettle and that seems to work well with no loss of bitterness/flavor.
2. Mix in high-oil and cryo hops in the flameout/dry hop additions. This is another way to keep the polyphenol/vegetal flavor at bay.
3. Select kettle hops with high survivability for maximum flavor saturation. YCH hops and Scott Janish have written about this phenomenon

Yeast. I'm also finding that yeast plays a huge role in transmitting hop flavor and aroma. Specifically, try to manage the amount of yeast present in your beer during the dry hopping process, both by process control and strain selection. Hop oils stick to yeast, so dry hopping in the presence of large quantities of active yeast is a good way to end up with really aromatic yeast. I've switched to using attenuative but flocculant strains if at all possible. WLP007 is my current weapon of choice.

Dry hopping technique. Try to dry hop with the goals of removing most of the yeast and minimizing the amount of oxygen exposure. To that end, I currently do 2 dry-hop charges:

1. The first is added as fermentation is slowing; with 007 much of the yeast will have already dropped by this point but there's still enough there to consume the oxygen that is introduced with the hops.
2. Dry hop in the serving keg, at serving temperatures. I use a muslin bag, tied extremely loosely and suspended with silicon plumber's tape through the keg seal.
3. I purge the keg initially by filling it with sanitizer, then pushing it out with CO2. I then add the bag as quickly as possible and re-purge several times. I had previously been concerned about not getting extraction at the lower temperatures, and fearful of the dreaded "grassy" flavor from prolonged contact. None of these concerns have materialized, and the beer is staying fresh until the keg kicks (usually this is ~6 weeks after I tap it).

There are other things I could mention but this is already a long post. Tl;Dr: try to minimize oxygen, suspended yeast during the dry hop, and excess leaf material in the beer!

I know this is two years old, but I have the same problem 50% of the time and it's so frustrating.

When I'm brewing an IPA, I find myself using between 18-24 oz of hops per a 5 gallon batch, which I know is a little extreme, and still have issues.

1. During the whirlpool, 5-6oz @ 170-175 F for 30 minutes
2. First dry hop charge (3.5 - 5oz) is three to four days into Primary.
3. Primary is generally done within 8 days from brew day, so hops have been exposed for 4-5 days. Cold crash to 39 for 24 hours.
4. Fine with Biofine Clear (if West Coast) and let sit for another 2-3 days.
5. Second dry hop charge (another 3.5oz to 5oz) goes into a CO2 purged keg. Beer is racked on top of hops and sealed.

I burst carbonate and usually start drinking within 24-48 hours. 50% of the time, I get very faint or almost no aroma. The other 50%, it's bursting with joyful hoppiness. For the IPAs that don't have the aroma, they are always bursting with it before I transfer the beer to the keg. Then when I'm serving it, it's gone.

Also using stainless buckets. Primary starts, pending the beer/yeast, between 62 and 68 F and is held til first charge is added. Then it free rises to 72-73 F until completion/ready to cold crash.

Currently, I have a West Coast DIPA (started at 64 F) in my keg. I was serving it at 39 F, and had no aroma. I raised the kegerator temp to 45 F and it's a little better. Would the cold temp be the culprit? Should I try 50 degrees? I know beers like Pliny the Elder should be served between 50-55, but I've never held a keg at that temp.

It gets frustrating when I see other people say, you only really need 3-5 oz of hops, total, for dry hopping. I'm using double that amount and can't seem to break the hop aroma barrier.

To be clear, the 50% of the time that I do get aroma, it's from more of those juicy type of hops--Austrailian or New Zealand hops, but this was after I increased my dosage to 18-24oz. When using hops for a West Coast--traditional like CTZ, Simcoe, Centennial, Chinook, etc.--the aroma is minimal.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Thanks for the update; not many circle back months later to help the group. The leaf material one is a little surprising to me but in the same vein it makes sense. I am going to be more judicious with getting out what I can and cryoing the rest.

 

[mattdee1]

When I'm brewing an IPA, I find myself using between 18-24 oz of hops per a 5 gallon batch, which I know is a little extreme, and still have issues.

I think a lot of us have been disappointed with homebrew hop character and have jumped to the conclusion "well, I guess I just didn't use enough hops!" at which point we splurge on asinine amounts of hops and dump them in, only to be even more disappointed because the results are no better and the cost is a lot higher.

It's definitely counterintuitive, but under good circumstances where the hops are adequately fresh and you've done a good job of keeping O2 away from your beer on the cold side, a very solid hop aroma does not require anywhere near 20oz in 5 gal. For me, all of my favorite results have been achieved using between 3-5oz in the dry hop, using cryo hops whenever possible (I'd use them every time if I could, but they're harder to find, at least in my area).

I ultimately was not able to achieve hop character I was happy with until I came up with a process whereby the fermenter is never opened except for a small rubber stopper for a few seconds to drop in the dry hops. Even during that process I feed CO2 into the fermentor headspace through the airlock stem. Kegs are liquid purged and there is no cold crashing or finings. Maybe not every single one of these measures is necessary but I've got it down to a pretty smooth process and the results have been great (finally).

TL;DR version - if you can't get nice flavor and aroma in a beer with under 10oz of hops in 5gal, then all the hops in the world are probably not going to matter, because at that point you're just throwing good hops after bad. You need to look at hop freshness and the details of your process. What may seem like the smallest opportunity for O2 to get in can make a night/day difference in the wrong direction, and it happens quickly.

 

[Bobo1898]

Thanks for the update @Proday137 , and the follow up, @mattdee1

The hops are fresh and properly stored. I'm leaning towards O2. I'm not fermenting under pressure, so I imagine when I cold crash, O2 gets in via the vacuum. While my airlock isn't pulling liquid in, I do see it reverse bubbling during this stage. I don't have room in my chamber for another vessel during fermentation so I can't do the keg hookup. I'll have to figure out another way to keep this fully under pressure. Maybe the NorCal CO2 harvester?

 

[mattdee1]

Thanks for the update @Proday137 , and the follow up, @mattdee1

The hops are fresh and properly stored. I'm leaning towards O2. I'm not fermenting under pressure, so I imagine when I cold crash, O2 gets in via the vacuum. While my airlock isn't pulling liquid in, I do see it reverse bubbling during this stage. I don't have room in my chamber for another vessel during fermentation so I can't do the keg hookup. I'll have to figure out another way to keep this fully under pressure. Maybe the NorCal CO2 harvester?

You can try one of those "balloon" type rigs that capture fermentation CO2 and save it so that only CO2 is sucked back during cold crash. Never tried that myself, so don't know how well it works. I'm inclined to think that you'd need a pretty good seal on your bucket lid for it to work properly and frankly, it just sounds like a monumental PITA.

If you have no means of maintaining pressure in the fermentor, then the easiest way to avoid O2 intrusion from cold crashing is to not cold crash at all.

IMO the only "good" reason to cold crash is to get the dry-hop matter to settle so it doesn't clog up your transfer to the keg. In other words, if you have some other way of preventing the clogging, then don't cold crash because it just creates a completely avoidable vector for O2 to get in.

The first time I tried a no-cold-crash closed transfer of a dry-hopped IPA without doing anything to prevent clogging, it was a nightmare. It clogged every 15 seconds.

So I thought about it for a while and came up with the (dirt cheap) system shown below that might give you some ideas. I've used it a dozen or so times now and it works incredibly well; I am able to drain the entire fermentor full of dry-hopped IPA down to the dregs without a single visible piece of hop matter getting in the way, and all without ever opening the bucket lid or cold crashing.

I insert the sanitized hop filter into the fermentor bucket on brew day when I'm filling the fermentor, and it stays there the whole process. The loop of red tubing is just there to hold it in the correct position. For dry-hopping, the bucket lid has a port with rubber stopper that is directly over the opening in the filter so when I drop the dry hops in, they fall into the filter. Then when I'm doing a closed transfer to the purged keg, I put the bucket up onto a tilting table with the hop filter full of dry hops at the "back" (see image). The racking cane is inserted into a separate port at the "front." This configuration keeps the hop matter in the hop cylinder and only beer goes through the cane.

I actually have separate bucket lids that I use for dry hopped batches and non-dry-hopped batches. The picture shows the non-dry-hop lid, but you just need to imagine a port with stopper where the airlock is, and have the airlock off to the side.

 

[Proday137]

That's a pretty cool rig, @mattdee1. I'm using the stainless brew buckets, so I just kink the blowoff tube and put a spring clamp on, then cold-crash as needed. The hops and yeast fall out of suspension and you can tell there wasn't any oxygen ingress because the lid of the thing is concave and drum-tight from the suction. I also leave the end of the hose in the bucket of star-san just to be sure, and nothing ever makes it past the kink in the hose.

When I go to keg it, I hook a piece of tubing to the liquid out post on my CO2-filled keg, blow CO2 out of it for a few seconds, and hook it to the valve on the buckets. There's enough residual pressure in the keg that the whole assemblage (keg and bucket) is then pressurized to a few psi. From there I can either connect the blowoff hose to the gas in post for a closed transfer, or to my CO2 regulator if I'm feeling impatient.

It's a little hacky but it works. The other day I found a bottled beer in my kegerator that turned out to be a German pilsner that placed first in the regional round of the 2018 NHC. I didn't expect much but it still tasted great.