Off flavour

[schmurf]

I think I'm in need of some help and advice here. I've been brewing for a little more than a year and have this, almost, constant off flavour in most of my beers. Maybe 75% of what I brew is British ales (bitters, milds, browns, IPA), and rest is hoppy American IPAs. I think I've brewed about 30 beers up until now.

From day one I've had this weird off flavour which is most noticeable in the British beers, not so much in the hoppy IPAs. I'd say that 9 of 10 British ales I brewed have had this flavour. The IPAs not so much, maybe the hops are hiding it or maybe it's just not so much of it in those.

When I bottle (used to) or keg (as of lately) the beer usually tastes OK but seems to develop during the first weeks carbonating/maturing, sometimes it somewhat fades away with time, sometimes it stays there all time.
Maybe I have a poor imagination, but I can't unfortunally put the flavour into words, which would have helped tremendously of course. I once shared a brew with beer drinking friends in hope that they would be able to put a name to the flavour, but with no success. To me it's a flavour that sometimes have made me dump the whole batch, it have not been a nice drinking experience.

I started with a simple BIAB setup; bag, 20 litre kettle, plastic fermenter with spigot and bottling. No fermentation control.

During the last half of 2018 I've been upgrading somewhat, I now have a Braumeister, SS fermenter (brewbucket), fermentation control (Brewjacket immersion) and I've started with kegging instead of bottling.

No change in result though, so I suspect there is something I do that produces this flavour, but as far as I know I have tried to reduce any off-flavour producing actions. My usual brew process is to take a known/tried recipe, or a very simple one by myself, mash and boil for 60 minutes, with grains milled by myself. Let my brews sit in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days, and then carbonate/mature for 14 days. I've done both dried yeast and liquid yeast with or without rehydration/starter. Since I purchased a TILT to follow the fermentation process I've noticed that my beer usually is finished fermenting by day 5.

As an example, my last brew I've been able to taste was Orfys Mild Mannered Ale. The brew day was pretty OK and fermentation looked good, a bit lower FG than expected.

I did a closed transfer from fermenter to (previously purged) keg to reduce oxygen uptake, tasted great at that time, but on day 12 after kegging, the flavour was there.

Please help me here to find possible sources for this flavour, I love brewing and I just want good tasting beers that make the effort worth while

 

[Anyhowe]

Interesting. Typically beer tastes good at all stages. Odd that you are developing a new flavor at that point in the process. You will get lots of opinions here, so it’s going to be tough online.

My experience is that most all off flavors outside of contamination is caused during fermentation. Either with higher temps bringing out the esters or by using yeast that promotes esters. Try using an American ale yeast for your English brew. They are very clean. English and British ale yeast are very ‘ estery’

Best solution is to find another local homerbrew guy to try your beer. I expect that will narrow it down quickly. Gl!

 

[Yooper]

What are you using for water? Since beer is 90% water, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

 

[TechFanMD]

Water is my guess as well since it, other than you, is the common thread throughout. Chlorinated tapwater used at all?

 

[schmurf]

I've tried 3 sources of water: from my well, from my city water (which I know is used by a micro brewery in town, completely untreated) and water from another city.

 

[schmurf]

Interesting. Typically beer tastes good at all stages. Odd that you are developing a new flavor at that point in the process. You will get lots of opinions here, so it’s going to be tough online.

My experience is that most all off flavors outside of contamination is caused during fermentation. Either with higher temps bringing out the esters or by using yeast that promotes esters. Try using an American ale yeast for your English brew. They are very clean. English and British ale yeast are very ‘ estery’

Best solution is to find another local homerbrew guy to try your beer. I expect that will narrow it down quickly. Gl!

Unfortunately I don't know any other homebrewer near me... I wish I did.

Using us05 or similar once has occurred to me, I might try that, but it seems like something I shouldn't have to do. There has to be something wrong that I'm doing that need to be fixed...

 

[str1p3s]

changing from tap water to spring water to building up from distilled has shown the most drastic changes for my beer

 

[Anyhowe]

Unfortunately I don't know any other homebrewer near me... I wish I did.

Using us05 or similar once has occurred to me, I might try that, but it seems like something I shouldn't have to do. There has to be something wrong that I'm doing that need to be fixed...

May sound silly but send me, or anybody close a bottle.

 

[bracconiere]

i'm not familiar with BIAB, but i remember i used to get bad tanins from sparging with boiling hot water..wasn't until, i asked the brewer at the local brew pub about my 'yeasty flavor' that he told me to lower my sparge to 160f....

if there's still husks in it, don't let it get over 168f..for tanins anyway....

 

[schmurf]

Thanks for the replies guys

May sound silly but send me, or anybody close a bottle.

I wouldn't mind, but I think we're on different continents...

i'm not familiar with BIAB, but i remember i used to get bad tanins from sparging with boiling hot water..wasn't until, i asked the brewer at the local brew pub about my 'yeasty flavor' that he told me to lower my sparge to 160f....

if there's still husks in it, don't let it get over 168f..for tanins anyway....

this last brew I mentioned previous was no sparge, and when I sparge I try to keep a good temperature

 

[agrazela]

...Maybe I have a poor imagination, but I can't unfortunally put the flavour into words, which would have helped tremendously of course. I once shared a brew with beer drinking friends in hope that they would be able to put a name to the flavour, but with no success...

C'mon, not even a vague description of the flavor? "Stale"? "Plastic-y?" "Vegetal"? "Peppery"?

Oh, and you said your friends couldn't help you name the flavor...but did they even taste the flavor?

 

[ncbrewer]

I recently started this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fuggle-willamette-substitute.658189/
"Apparently I don't like the aroma of Willamette or Fuggle hops. In an English Bitter they smell like sweaty tennis shoes to me." The styles you mentioned partly line up with this, but not completely. Several alternative hop varieties were suggested. You could try some of those suggestions if you think it makes sense.

 

[ong]

I would try doing a very simple bitter to reduce variables. 100% base malt (Maris Otter or Golden Promise, or the like), just EKG hops (60 and 10 additions), and a yeast strain like 1968, or S-04 if that’s easier to source. I think it really helps to simplify things when tracking down an issue.

 

[schmurf]

C'mon, not even a vague description of the flavor? "Stale"? "Plastic-y?" "Vegetal"? "Peppery"?

Oh, and you said your friends couldn't help you name the flavor...but did they even taste the flavor?

I'm not sure, but I think the flavour is more pronounced at certain temperatures and/or after a while in the glass. The bottles I shared at that time didn't have that overwhelming flavour that I find when I'm at home by myself. It was there though, but only one of my friends said there was something wrong with the beer, the others said it tasted beer...but not a good one.

Belive me I have tried to set a description! If you say "cardboard?" I say...hmm yes maybe. If you say "vegetable/corn?" I say...hmm yes maybe...and so on. However, I wouldn't say "maybe" for everything...medicinal? no....Pepper? no.

I recently started this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fuggle-willamette-substitute.658189/
"Apparently I don't like the aroma of Willamette or Fuggle hops. In an English Bitter they smell like sweaty tennis shoes to me." The styles you mentioned partly line up with this, but not completely. Several alternative hop varieties were suggested. You could try some of those suggestions if you think it makes sense.

That occurred to me yesterday after I tried the mild, perhaps it's a hop I don't agree with? But this mild uses Fuggles, a backbone in a lot of british beer (which I often drink), why wouldn't I be able to drink my own brews with it? But I will go back and see what I've been using previousley, maybe there is some thing to it anyway.

 

[schmurf]

I would try doing a very simple bitter to reduce variables. 100% base malt (Maris Otter or Golden Promise, or the like), just EKG hops (60 and 10 additions), and a yeast strain like 1968, or S-04 if that’s easier to source. I think it really helps to simplify things when tracking down an issue.

I have made simple recipes but no "smash bitter", I might just do that next time. I never really do overly complicated brews, 3-4 types of grains and 2-3 hop varieties. Most have contained Fuggles actually, but not all of them.

 

[rhys333]

If you or someone else can pin down what the off-flavor is like, that would help immensely with narrowing down the possible causes.

If it develops over time, then it may well be an infection in your brewery somewhere that's passing from batch to batch. Changing lines, plastic utensils and throwing out any cold-side ingredients that can harbor bugs (saved yeast slurry), would be the thing to do.

If it's something that's actually present the whole time, perhaps hidden in the green beer, then it could well be process. Using a superfine mesh BIAB vs a coarse mesh bag eliminates debris inclusion in the wort and the weird off-flavors it causes. Managing your mash pH properly is a big one too, as high pH can lead to a drying tannin quality and other weirdness that pretty much ruins a beer. Low mash pH can leave you with an acidic soda-like beer if it gets too low.

@schmurf I'd like to ask - do you experience the same off-flavor with both light and dark beer, or is it usually just one and not the other? Are you including more dark or crystal malts in your ESBs than your IPAs? Going by your info above it sounds like this might be limited to darker beers, or ones with more specialty malts.

 

[grampamark]

Taste differs widely among the general population. Some folks put Sriracha on their corn flakes; others find ketchup a bit too spicy. Some people will insist that, because they can detect a particular flavor, everyone should be able to. In reality, maybe only 20% can easily detect that flavor. You may be one of those who are more sensitive to this particular, indescribable, flavor, and there really isn't anything that wrong with your beer.

Try brewing something with a simple recipe, using ingredients you don't normally use. For example, a Mosaic SMaSH, using 2-row or Pilsner, Mosaic to about 40-50 IBU, and us-05 or Nottingham.

If you can still taste this mysterious flavor in what should be a pretty clean beer, maybe it's just you.

 

[ong]

FWIW, I think Fuggles is pretty gross, and have excluded it from all my brewing. I figured this out by doing a single hop Fuggles English IPA and realizing it tasted like concentrated dirt.

 

[ong]

I have made simple recipes but no "smash bitter", I might just do that next time. I never really do overly complicated brews, 3-4 types of grains and 2-3 hop varieties. Most have contained Fuggles actually, but not all of them.

I generally do bitters as all base malt, just out of taste preference. I did make a few lbs of light crystal out of Golden Promise, and sometimes I’ll add six oz or so of that, but I don’t find it’s a style that benefits from much crystal malt, if any.

 

[schmurf]

Thanks, all input and advice is appreciated.

If you or someone else can pin down what the off-flavor is like, that would help immensely with narrowing down the possible causes.

If it develops over time, then it may well be an infection in your brewery somewhere that's passing from batch to batch. Changing lines, plastic utensils and throwing out any cold-side ingredients that can harbor bugs (saved yeast slurry), would be the thing to do.

If it's something that's actually present the whole time, perhaps hidden in the green beer, then it could well be process. Using a superfine mesh BIAB vs a coarse mesh bag eliminates debris inclusion in the wort and the weird off-flavors it causes. Managing your mash pH properly is a big one too, as high pH can lead to a drying tannin quality and other weirdness that pretty much ruins a beer. Low mash pH can leave you with an acidic soda-like beer if it gets too low.

@schmurf I'd like to ask - do you experience the same off-flavor with both light and dark beer, or is it usually just one and not the other? Are you including more dark or crystal malts in your ESBs than your IPAs? Going by your info above it sounds like this might be limited to darker beers, or ones with more specialty malts.

Yes if I can't pin the problem down pretty soon I suppose I got to find an experienced brewer that can actually taste my brews and tell me what it is. And yes, it's in both light and dark beer, but I haven't had so much problems with hoppy american IPA's.

Taste differs widely among the general population. Some folks put Sriracha on their corn flakes; others find ketchup a bit too spicy. Some people will insist that, because they can detect a particular flavor, everyone should be able to. In reality, maybe only 20% can easily detect that flavor. You may be one of those who are more sensitive to this particular, indescribable, flavor, and there really isn't anything that wrong with your beer.

Try brewing something with a simple recipe, using ingredients you don't normally use. For example, a Mosaic SMaSH, using 2-row or Pilsner, Mosaic to about 40-50 IBU, and us-05 or Nottingham.

If you can still taste this mysterious flavor in what should be a pretty clean beer, maybe it's just you.

I've been doing a couple of SMaSH brews which have turned out pretty good, most recent was actually a Mosaic SMaSH. Problem seems not to occur where "new world" hops are used, and in my case that means british ales/British hops and also the odd ales where I used continental hops.

I generally do bitters as all base malt, just out of taste preference. I did make a few lbs of light crystal out of Golden Promise, and sometimes I’ll add six oz or so of that, but I don’t find it’s a style that benefits from much crystal malt, if any.

Yes it seems like this will be my next step, do an all base malt bitter with just 1 or 2 hop varieties....and not fuggles this time, and perhaps a clean allround yeast. Just so I will be able to exclude that I have been cursed by someone who don't want me to brew bitters...