"Off Flavor" Bavarian Hefeweizen - NB Kit

[BlutoA10C]

So, I'm relatively new to homebrew (and love it, by the way!). I've done about 10 brews over the last year or so. 2 of them were Bavarian Hefeweizens and both (2 different kits, one from Northern Brew and one from Midwest - similar recipes, but different yeasts). Here's the issue:

- Both recipes produced flavors I don't detect in professional (Weihenstepaner) brews and don't particularly like.
- I realize they will not be the same, but based on reading I may have a phenol or esther problem - what do they taste like? I do not smell the normal "bready" odor I expect (and like).
- I do not have a refined pallet, I don't know the difference between a phenol or esther flavor.
- I do not notice an overly "banana" odor or taste. As I said - no bready aroma or flavor.
- Zero head retention, although I understand this can be due to numerous issues, I don't seem to have issues with other brews.

Any insights are greatly appreciated!

Cheers! Dave

 

[Jag75]

What does it smell like , what does it taste like ?

No clove , banana , slight tartness at all?

 

[AlexKay]

Did you use dry (WB-06) yeast? That would make a not-Hefeweizen.

 

[tracer bullet]

Yep - what yeast, what fermentation temps, and do your best to describe the flavor if possible (we wont' laugh).

 

[BlutoA10C]

What does it smell like , what does it taste like ?

No clove , banana , slight tartness at all?

Now that you mention it, it does smell/taste like clove. It's a "finish" flavor predominantly. To be clear, I don't think the beer is bad, it simply has a flavor I don't prefer.

Did you use dry (WB-06) yeast? That would make a not-Hefeweizen.

I used Liquid Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan yeast and I made a 1 liter starter with it the day before brew day - put the entire starter in the 5 gallon batch. From what I've read, overpitching shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks!

 

[BlutoA10C]

Yep - what yeast, what fermentation temps, and do your best to describe the flavor if possible (we wont' laugh).

Fermentation temp 68 - 70 deg F. Regarding flavors, beyond clove, it has a "sharp" (maybe tart) flavor. I was expecting a smoother profile.

Thanks!

 

[bkboiler]

Hmm...extract or all grain? Sorry if I missed it!
How are you doing your water?

 

[BlutoA10C]

Hmm...extract or all grain? Sorry if I missed it!
How are you doing your water?

Both were extract kits. The water comes from the tap and filtered through a Brita filter. I haven't gotten to the point of checking the water profile . . . too lazy

 

[Jag75]

I never use a starter for my hefes ,as I'm closer to under pitching them . It helps with esters and phenols. Fermentation temps play a role in either banana or clove. Hefes are supposed to have that slight tartness to them .

As for water , you should use ro water when using extract. Of course you have a filter , so it really depends on that . For instance, at work we have a water pitcher that has the filter in the top . Just for kicks I brought my TDS meter in to check just how well the filter worked. To my surprise it didn't work well at all . Maybe knocked out 10 ppm .

 

[tracer bullet]

https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/weihenstephan-wheat
" The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. "

As somewhat already mentioned, next time maybe skip the starter and add a couple degrees to the fermentation temps. It'll shift you towards the banana ester flavor and away from the clove phenol flavor.

 

[BlutoA10C]

I never use a starter for my hefes ,as I'm closer to under pitching them . It helps with esters and phenols. Fermentation temps play a role in either banana or clove. Hefes are supposed to have that slight tartness to them .

As for water , you should use ro water when using extract. Of course you have a filter , so it really depends on that . For instance, at work we have a water pitcher that has the filter in the top . Just for kicks I brought my TDS meter in to check just how well the filter worked. To my surprise it didn't work well at all . Maybe knocked out 10 ppm .

So, I should try under, not overpitching, next time and see what kind of change that makes - appreciate the advice.

Regarding the water, this is the filter I use: https://www.amazon.com/PUR-Reductio...=pur+filter+replacement&qid=1615565140&sr=8-5

Not sure what you mean by "ro" water, sorry. Thanks again!

 

[BlutoA10C]

https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/weihenstephan-wheat
" The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. "

As somewhat already mentioned, next time maybe skip the starter and add a couple degrees to the fermentation temps. It'll shift you towards the banana ester flavor and away from the clove phenol flavor.

Tracer, appreciate the advice - validates Jag75's comments. I'll definitely give both suggestions a try next go around! Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

So, I should try under, not overpitching, next time and see what kind of change that makes - appreciate the advice.

Regarding the water, this is the filter I use: https://www.amazon.com/PUR-Reductio...=pur+filter+replacement&qid=1615565140&sr=8-5

Not sure what you mean by "ro" water, sorry. Thanks again!

Just skip the starter and ferment on the warmer side of yeast parameters like @tracer bullet mentioned. RO water is Reverse Osmosis. Its water thats very low in minerals . Brewers use it to build water profiles for different beers . They also use distilled water as well. Kind of like a blank slate.

 

[tracer bullet]

RO water is an interesting idea. I'd normally caution that changing your water or adding stuff to it is a bad idea if you don't know where you are starting (i.e. lab analysis of your water), but that's true for all-grain beer. For extract... it's worth looking into. Might have a lot of what you need already there? Then again this is style dependent, what you want for a hefe, stout, or IPA can be very different. Might get you closer or farther away, hard to say.

 

[Jag75]

RO water is an interesting idea. I'd normally caution that changing your water or adding stuff to it is a bad idea if you don't know where you are starting (i.e. lab analysis of your water), but that's true for all-grain beer. For extract... it's worth looking into. Might have a lot of what you need already there? Then again this is style dependent, what you want for a hefe, stout, or IPA can be very different. Might get you closer or farther away, hard to say.

With extract the minerals and mash ph were already established. Adding reg tap water ( high minerals) depending on water source is adding extra minerals to that wort . When I first started brewing I used tap water , which mine is great for brewing dark beers but not lighter ones. I had some off flavors but it wasn't terrible . It was just there . Once I went to using RO water with extract kits it was noticeably better.

 

[BlutoA10C]

Thanks all, I'm getting ready to move, but when I get my Beer Cave set up, I'll invest in the water analysis so I at least know from where I'm starting.

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

Thanks all, I'm getting ready to move, but when I get my Beer Cave set up, I'll invest in the water analysis so I at least know from where I'm starting.

Cheers!

While its nice to know what your working with i do recommend a mash program and using RO water to build

Edit: when brewing AG that is .

 

[SFC Rudy]

Try using Lallemand Munich Classic dry yeast. I recently did an open ferment @68 in a sterilite container I got at Wal Mart. Transferred to a closed fermenter after four days (too soon) When I bottled it tasted just like the Hefe's I drank while stationed in Germany. Popped a top a few days ago, great taste (for an extract beer), closest I have gotten to a German Hefe. Will be brewing an all grain soon....

 

[BlutoA10C]

Thanks! I'll definitely give it a try - what were the ingredients in your extract recipe?

 

[SFC Rudy]

It was a Northern Brewer Bavarian Hefeweizen kit I got off of Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015T8OX00/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 . You'll have to order the yeast separate.

In my experience with hefe's it's mostly the yeast that makes it a good hefe. I've tried liquid yeasts with varying degrees of success, but I am excited about the lallemand Munich Classic. Open fermentation does have an impact. Like I said, I used a 60qt sterilite container with a bottling spigot for when I transferred. Keep the lid on, it's loose enough to allow CO2 to escape. I skimmed the yeast at four days and transferred; next time I'll still skim at about four days but will wait to transfer when the krausen has all but fallen. Good luck!

 

[BlutoA10C]

I'm pretty sure that's the same kit I used. At what temp did you ferment?

 

[SFC Rudy]

I'm pretty sure that's the same kit I used. At what temp did you ferment?

68 degrees. I got that from https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...hClassic.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rJPnbtalWPPWjDJ7BSW3l