Of Primaries, Secondaries and Yeast Washing

[EvilGnome6]

OK. I've seen plenty of arguments for longer primaries and/or skipping secondaries altogether. I get the concept that the yeast will do cleanup.

What I'm wondering is if the yeast that has already settled at the bottom is really doing that much work of it it's already dormant or dead. I've been transferring to a secondary (or bright if you will) after 1 week and always have plenty of yeast settling at the bottom after 2-3 weeks.

Is the argument that the yeast cake at the bottom of the primary is necessary to do the cleanup work and whatever is still in suspension after one week isn't sufficient? That just seems a little counter-intuitive to me. I'd think the yeast still in suspension would be more suited to do the cleanup work and finish any remaining fermentation since it's actually in contact with the rest of the beer.

The other thing this factors into is yeast washing. Do you get a healthier population if you take the cake right after 1 week versus waiting 2 or 3 weeks before washing it. Here again my intuition would lead me to believe it's better to take it sooner rather than later.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

You are on the right track. I have a blog about secondary fermentation. The dormant and dead yeast in the trub layer are not really contributing to the conditioning phase. It is the more attenuative and active yeast still in suspension doing the work. That is why you do a yeast dump in a cylindro-conical fermenter and a racking to secondary in carboys.

The yeast in a properly done secondary fermentation are the healthiest, best attenuating yeast you pitched and are going to finish the beer. They are also the yeast you would be best off collecting via washing.

The down side of racking is potential oxidation, potential stalling or high finishing gravities if you do it at the wrong time, or other issues. If you are not comfortable with your ferments and do not closely track S.G. I suggest just leaving it in the primary fermenter vessel for 3 weeks and being done with it.

However, I am a big believer in getting the beer off the trub at the proper time, especially in pale beers.

Cue Revvy with the counter point.

 

[Revvy]

Well I was going to ignore this thread...Because to me this is just Lipstick on a pig..it's the same argument we have had ad nauseum, just asked a little differently...But Since my esteemed collegue decided he needed to peddle his stuff to further confuse the noobs, and further call me out ...I'm just going to offer the link to my counter point and then unsubcribe.

Because I don't care how many ways the the long primary vs secondary argument gets re-phrased...it's flogging a dead horse...the same people are going to post the same info they we post all the time with the same source material we use all the time, andf all the same anecdotal material that we post all the time, that I'm sure the majority of folks, except the new brewers who fear autolysis and rush through the process haven't seen yet. And no matter how this thread goes..We're still going to be posting the same info in new brewer threads asking whether or not to secondary within an hour.

Revvy's take on the tired discourse of where "Secondary Fermentation" happens.

Donkey sniffer and I have the highest regards for each other (so much that he lets me call him donkey sniffer since I still can't spell his name ), and both acknowledge that there are more than one way to skin a cat...So while the rest of you re-hash this, he and I are heading to the local for a snifter or two.

Ps...to the other part of the question, regardless of whether you primary or secondary if you want to harvest yeast you wash and take the yeast from the primary. The reason? Unless you are dealing with cloudy wheat beers, want to take the yeast that is the most flocculant. The stuff that does it's job and goes to sleep on the bottom after.

 

[bob1852]

like I said - I'll host the PPV debate -

Revvy v. Kabouter: winner take all

 

[bob1852]

P.S. the take home message is that all other factors aside, both Revvy and Kabouter advise leaving the beer in the primary for 3 weeks.

can you both at least agree to that general of a statement?