Nottingham Off Flavors?

[Flyboy84]

Have any of you guys run into some weird flavors with Notty? It's hard to describe but it is this strange, almost sweet flavor that gives you this tinge in the back of your cheeks. It's almost like a wild yeast taste.

It has happened in two different beers with no similarities other than Notty fermented at 64 degrees.

 

[Callacave]

The only time I used Notty I got a tartness I didn't like. Maybe that's what you're tasting? I think I fermented around the same temp as you.

I did read that some people get a very clean flavor from it around 58-59.

 

[j1n]

Ive done notty at 64 and at 60. It was cleaner at 60 but was still good at 64. Didnt really taste what you are describing though. i used it on BMs centennial blonde ale.

What was the FG on the beers? If its high that could be the reason for the sweetness.

 

[Flyboy84]

The only time I used Notty I got a tartness I didn't like. Maybe that's what you're tasting? I think I fermented around the same temp as you.

I did read that some people get a very clean flavor from it around 58-59.

Maybe. It's a sharp taste that make that twinge in the back corners of your your mouth. It's not drinkable and very disappointing.

I tried it at that temp and it wouldn't ferment with either beer. I raised it a degree a day until I saw airlock activity at 64. I tried to lower it again and it stalled. 64 was as low as I could get it.

 

[Flyboy84]

Ive done notty at 64 and at 60. It was cleaner at 60 but was still good at 64. Didnt really taste what you are describing though. i used it on BMs centennial blonde ale.

What was the FG on the beers? If its high that could be the reason for the sweetness.

It was pretty low on both, 1.009 and 1.012.

 

[j1n]

Ive used it on a blonde ale and a cider and had no issues with it at 60. not sure why yours stalled. Did you rehydrate the yeast before pitching? how did you aerate the wort? Dry yeast tend to have a longer lag time than liquid.

was 64 the air temp or beer temp? i hear notty gets nasty at the upper 60s and higher.

 

[LexusChris]

I have made American Wheats with Notty yeast quite a few times. I usually ferment at 66-67 with it, but have not had any off flavors or unusual characteristics...

Yeast when stressed can produce some unusual flavors, so perhaps consider your re-hydration process, pitching rate, pitching temp & yeast age for some other ideas...

Good luck,
--LexusChris

 

[Flyboy84]

So I did a side by side of the two beers that I made with this yeast and they have the same terrible smell and taste. They literally have no similarities other than the yeast; one being a strawberry blonde with a pilsner base williamette hops and the other being an irish red with 2row base and fuggles.

I tried this yeast to see why this it has such a cult like following and now I know that was a mistake; this yeast is garbage.

Here's to 10 gal of beer down the drain

 

[j1n]

You didnt answer my question. Was 64 the beer temp or the air temp? if it was the air temp then the beer temp could have gotten up to 70ish degrees. id say you fermented too hot or something else is up in your process. i and many other have used this yeast without any issue. dont blame the yeast.

 

[Eucrid]

So I did a side by side of the two beers that I made with this yeast and they have the same terrible smell and taste. They literally have no similarities other than the yeast; one being a strawberry blonde with a pilsner base williamette hops and the other being an irish red with 2row base and fuggles.

I tried this yeast to see why this it has such a cult like following and now I know that was a mistake; this yeast is garbage.

Here's to 10 gal of beer down the drain

Water?

 

[CUrchin]

You say "wild yeast taste". Sure you don't have an infection in a piece of equipment in your process?

 

[fatcop]

I recently used this yeast in a beer with 70-74 air temperature. No notice of any fermentation off flavors. Despite the beer coming very clear, it has a very yeasty taste. I don't know if it's the same taste your describing but I know it definitely stands out above my pilsen malts and Saaz; I hate it. Boy did it go fast though, only 6lbs of pilsen extract and it erupted out the top; finished in 3.5 days. I have another pack ill save for a stout where there will be enough flavors to cover up the yeast.

 

[j1n]

I recently used this yeast in a beer with 70-74 air temperature. No notice of any fermentation off flavors. Despite the beer coming very clear, it has a very yeasty taste. I don't know if it's the same taste your describing but I know it definitely stands out above my pilsen malts and Saaz; I hate it. Boy did it go fast though, only 6lbs of pilsen extract and it erupted out the top; finished in 3.5 days. I have another pack ill save for a stout where there will be enough flavors to cover up the yeast.

Well that's much higher than the recommended range. You most certainly DID have off flavors if you fermented that hot. 70-74F air temp would mean upper 70s and low 80s beer temp. That is wayyy too hot for Notty yeast.

Instead of making a strong flavorful beer to compensate for your off flavors, you should try to ferment the wort in the correct temp range of the yeast. high 50s and low 60s is best for this yeast. if you cant control it to those temps then i highly suggest you use another yeast strain that is tolerant of high temps.

 

[fatcop]

Well that's much higher than the recommended range. You most certainly DID have off flavors if you fermented that hot. 70-74F air temp would mean upper 70s and low 80s beer temp. That is wayyy too hot for Notty yeast.

Instead of making a strong flavorful beer to compensate for your off flavors, you should try to ferment the wort in the correct temp range of the yeast. high 50s and low 60s is best for this yeast. if you cant control it to those temps then i highly suggest you use another yeast strain that is tolerant of high temps.

I always appreciate the feedback, but I pitched with the wort at 60f and let it climb from there. I'm sure there is a little bit of off flavors but again, nothing strong enough for me to really notice. I know it's the yeast because the bottles that are chilled on their side it is a lot more noticeable then the bottles chilled upright. (DUH) In my limited experience, this yeast did awesome at these temps. I just find the taste of the yeast myself off putting which I thought might help the OP. Again, appreciate the feedback from a guy new to the craft.

Edit- come to think of it, 74.5f was the temperature of the wort I took in the hydrometer tube the day before I bottled. So perhaps my temperature is a good margin lower then you were thinking.

 

[j1n]

I always appreciate the feedback, but I pitched with the wort at 60f and let it climb from there. I'm sure there is a little bit of off flavors but again, nothing strong enough for me to really notice. I know it's the yeast because the bottles that are chilled on their side it is a lot more noticeable then the bottles chilled upright. (DUH) In my limited experience, this yeast did awesome at these temps. I just find the taste of the yeast myself off putting which I thought might help the OP. Again, appreciate the feedback from a guy new to the craft.

Edit- come to think of it, 74.5f was the temperature of the wort I took in the hydrometer tube the day before I bottled. So perhaps my temperature is a good margin lower then you were thinking.

Well, if you pitched @ 60 then i doubt you have much off flavors. you may have got some as the temp ramped up but sounds like not much if any from what you're saying. If you had fermented starting at 70 then i doubt you could have drank any of that beer.

If you want to take your beers to another level then a fermentation chamber is what will help you get there. Fermentation temp control is one of the most important things to create a good beer.

 

[billd75]

I did not have any "off" flavours with their yeast, but did notice the sweet taste the OP described. It came with a Pilsner from "Brew Canada" brand and I was not terribly impressed with how it behaves. My beer did not carbonate like it should (compared to Danstar or Cooper's yeasts and others). I thought because they included a whopping 11 grams of the stuff (compared to 5,6 and 7 like other brands, like Coopers, Black Rock and Munton's) and I thought "Yay, finally, someone who is including a good proper amount of yeast with their can kits". Yeah, I think they include more for another reason, cause they know it's needed. Lol. Never, ever had a problem with Cooper's yeast (nice hardy stuff) or with normal Danstar yeast at all, but me thinks this Nottingham is kinda weird, or very sensitive to temp. somehow. My beer is sweet and flat and not carbonating fully in the bottles, as if it's weak or dormant or there was too much die-off or something? I am not terribly impressed with this yeast's weird action in bottles. It was fine in the fermenter, however. Seems like it is not as "hardy" as others, I dunno. I am pretty new to brewing and I only brew can kits so far, so perhaps it's just me. This is the first strange problem I have had making beer and having odd carbonation. If I ever get another can of hopped malt extract with Notty again, I will be adding some of that patented Wyeast nutrient to it, cause it's awesome. I just started a new batch of Munton's Blonde and only 7 hours into the brew and it's just taking off. Got like a half inch of foam on top already. Now, that could also be because I just started using inverted table sugar too (along with some spray malt DME, like I always do), rather than straight table sugar like I typically do for my second pound of sugar (cause I am cheap, lol), but it could also be the yeast nutrient I got a sample of at the local brew place, or both. They are a great bunch over there and helpful. Either way, I like this nutrient and it's really cheap. People have claimed to have blow offs on their fermenters with this stuff, so..... I think it's the nutrient really helping. Pretty cool stuff and it's like "yeast insurance". I have no other explanation for why my Notty yeasted Canadian Pilsener has such weak action in the bottles. It was not weak in the fermenter. These can kits are not rocket Science and as long as you are sanitary and keep the right temps, it's almost foolproof. The expiry date was well over a year away too. It's not for lack of sugar either. Wish I had discovered this yeast nutrient before I brewed this, cause it probably would have really helped this. Seems like a really nice tasting kit regardless, had it not been for this weird action in the bottles. All I can say for this yeast is, that it is smooth, as someone mentioned and leaves a nice flavour. Not too yeasty tasting and fresh, clean finish. Other than that, it "seems" weak or something after fermenting and in bottles and seems problem prone, perhaps. Update: There must have been some uneven distribution of yeast in my bottling, because I opened a bottle from this batch and it foamed out the top so fast, I had to run to the kitchen (I did not chill it first). LMAO! I was not expecting that and it made me laugh. I was expecting a weak/mild carbonation, like I had been getting with some of the bottles I tried (and it has improved with time, on even the low carbonated ones, it is getting better and not so flat beer). This bottle must have got a good dose of yeast compared to others, cause the second I cracked the seal, it was ready to get out of that bottle, in a big way. I lost one third of the bottle. A lesson learned in distribution of yeast into the bottles. I think when I moved the fermenting bucket, I stirred it up a bit and something strange happened in how the beer went into the bottles. This yeast did some serious fermenting in the bucket I noticed and that was without any nutrient or inverted sugar or anything special for it either. The yeast cake in the bottom of the bucket, was the biggest one I have seen yet. So the stuff works, I just think it is sensitive to higher temps. I got at least an inch and a half thick of cake on the bottom of the bucket. It almost reached the bottom of my drain spout and some chunks of it got into one bottle I noticed. That bottle was good, no off tastes, but pretty yeasty and perhaps that was the one that decided to escape the bottle so quick last night. I lost track of which bottle got it, but I suspect it was that bad boy! Lol. It was pretty hilarious. Lol. Me running to the kitchen sink, leaving a trail of beer behind me. I was not even mad at having to clean it up, which I usually am with spills.

 

[MaryB]

I have fermented Notty at 70f, a bit more ester production but no real "off" flavors"

Ive used it on a blonde ale and a cider and had no issues with it at 60. not sure why yours stalled. Did you rehydrate the yeast before pitching? how did you aerate the wort? Dry yeast tend to have a longer lag time than liquid.

was 64 the air temp or beer temp? i hear notty gets nasty at the upper 60s and higher.

 

[MaryB]

The problem may not be the yeast... it may be the beer kit...

I use Danstar Nottingham all the time, it is my house ale yeast. I have never had any off flavors and have fermented between 60f and 70f with it. And It is NOT a weak yeast! Notty is a fermenting beast and often completes fermentation in 2-3 days!

I did not have any "off" flavours with their yeast, but it came with a Pilsner from "Brew Canada" brand and I was not impressed. My beer did not ferment like it should and it's not carbonating well at all either. (compared to Danstar or Cooper's yeasts and others). I thought because they included a whopping 11 grams of the stuff (compared to 5,6 and 7 like other brands, like Coopers, Black Rock and Munton's) and I thought "Yay, finally, someone who is including a good proper amount of yeast with their can kits". Yeah, I think they include more for another reason, cause they know it's totally weak ass yeast. Lol. Never, ever had a problem with Cooper's yeast (nice hardy stuff) or with Danstar yeast at all, but me thinks this Nottingham is garbage. My beer is sweet and flat and not fermented fully and I am not impressed with this yeast at all! Seems like it is not as nearly as "hardy" as others, I dunno. If I ever get another can of hopped malt extract with Notty again, I will be adding some of that patented Wyeast nutrient to it, cause it's awesome. I just started a new batch of Munton's Blonde and only 7 hours into the brew and it's just taking off. Got like a half inch of foam on top already. Now, that could also be because I just started using inverted table sugar (with some spray malt DME), rather than straight table sugar like I typically do, but it could also be the yeast nutrient. Either way, I like this nutrient and it's really cheap. People have claimed to have blow offs on their fermenters with this stuff, so..... I think it's the nutrient. Pretty cool stuff and it's like "yeast insurance". Especially for weak yeasts like Notty. I have no other explanation for why my Notty yeasted Canadian Pilsener has such weak action. These can kits are not rocket Science and as long as you are sanitary and keep the right temps, it's almost foolproof. The expiry date was well over a year away too. It's not for lack of sugar either. Wish I had discovered this yeast nutrient before I brewed this, cause it probably would have really helped this. Seems like a nice tasting kit, had it not been for this crap yeast. All I can say for this yeast is, that it is smooth, as someone mentioned and leaves a nice flavour. Not too yeasty and fresh finish. Other than that, it's weak and seems problem prone.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I fermented my last three beers with notty and I'm thinking maybe it has a particular sensitivity to heat. The first one was an extract irish red ale. It was my first beer to ferment completely in a temperature controlled chamber. For that one I went with 66-68 degrees, and upon tasting it I noticed a peculiar bitterness that was a touch unpleasant and lingered on the back of my tongue. I was hoping that perhaps it was the hops I had used, or maybe an aspect of extract brewing that would be absent when I went all grain.

The next beer was an all grain cream ale. This beer I fermented at 58-59 degrees, seeking that lager-like aspect that I've heard so much about with notty at low temperatures. Upon tasting my first gravity sample of it, I still detected that unpleasant bitterness, although it seemed reduced compared to the irish red.

The final beer was the same cream ale recipe again, only fermented at 56-57 degrees this time. The fermentation took noticeably longer on this one. I cracked the lid on it at around the time the last one had finished primary fermentation to see a full krausen still on the beer. By the time the weekend had passed it had gone away and I bumped the temperature up to get it to finish out. At the same time I checked the gravity and tasted the sample. First and foremost, there was not even a hint of the bitterness I had noticed in the last two brews. Of secondary interest was the fact that I could detect a slight hint of sulphur in the beer. That doesn't really worry me because it's one of the off flavors that are supposed to go away in the "cleanup" phase, but I'm wondering if maybe I'm on to something here with what I would have assumed to be an extremely low fermentation temp for notty.

So my main question is what the hell was causing that bitterness? Is this the fusel "astringency" that I hear talk about? It seemed like all three of those beers should have been fermented at a low enough temp to avoid those. So if it's not that, then why did it seem to go away when the temperatures got low enough?

By the way, all the temperatures I mention here are the actual beer temps, not ambient. I fermented with the probe attached to the side of the chamber and insulated against the ambient air each time.

 

[billd75]

The problem may not be the yeast... it may be the beer kit...

I use Danstar Nottingham all the time, it is my house ale yeast. I have never had any off flavors and have fermented between 60f and 70f with it. And It is NOT a weak yeast! Notty is a fermenting beast and often completes fermentation in 2-3 days!

Yeah, I noticed that last night after opening another bottle. Unlike a few of my other bottles of flat, non carbonated beer, I had one practically explode on me, the second I cracked it. I think I got some uneven distribution of yeast when bottling, because this bottle, was anything but weakly carbonated! Read my update to my comment about what happened. It was pretty funny. Even my flat bottles are gaining "some" carbonation. It is getting better as it ages. The yeast cake on the bottom of my fermenter was the biggest I have ever seen, by the way. Almost an inch and a half thick. So yeah, Notty is a fermenting beast, even without any yeast nutrient or help or inverted sugar. Lol. I am pretty new to brewing and this was my first "odd experience" so I was tempted to blame the yeast, thank's to that poor carbonation action, but it's certainly not the yeast. Not when you get a bottle like that! I also edited my comment, to not be quite so critical of the yeast. Hahahaha! . Learning something new, all the time and that's why I love this site. Some really smart, experienced people here.

 

[billd75]

I fermented my last three beers with notty and I'm thinking maybe it has a particular sensitivity to heat. The first one was an extract irish red ale. It was my first beer to ferment completely in a temperature controlled chamber. For that one I went with 66-68 degrees, and upon tasting it I noticed a peculiar bitterness that was a touch unpleasant and lingered on the back of my tongue. I was hoping that perhaps it was the hops I had used, or maybe an aspect of extract brewing that would be absent when I went all grain.

The next beer was an all grain cream ale. This beer I fermented at 58-59 degrees, seeking that lager-like aspect that I've heard so much about with notty at low temperatures. Upon tasting my first gravity sample of it, I still detected that unpleasant bitterness, although it seemed reduced compared to the irish red.

The final beer was the same cream ale recipe again, only fermented at 56-57 degrees this time. The fermentation took noticeably longer on this one. I cracked the lid on it at around the time the last one had finished primary fermentation to see a full krausen still on the beer. By the time the weekend had passed it had gone away and I bumped the temperature up to get it to finish out. At the same time I checked the gravity and tasted the sample. First and foremost, there was not even a hint of the bitterness I had noticed in the last two brews. Of secondary interest was the fact that I could detect a slight hint of sulphur in the beer. That doesn't really worry me because it's one of the off flavors that are supposed to go away in the "cleanup" phase, but I'm wondering if maybe I'm on to something here with what I would have assumed to be an extremely low fermentation temp for notty.

So my main question is what the hell was causing that bitterness? Is this the fusel "astringency" that I hear talk about? It seemed like all three of those beers should have been fermented at a low enough temp to avoid those. So if it's not that, then why did it seem to go away when the temperatures got low enough?

By the way, all the temperatures I mention here are the actual beer temps, not ambient. I fermented with the probe attached to the side of the chamber and insulated against the ambient air each time.

I believe you are quite correct! This may have been my issue too. I did not know that this was such a low temp yeast and I had mine at about a constant 72-75 degrees, so maybe that's why I got such weird action with it in the bottles and some uneven distribution of yeast when bottle. The bottle I opened last night foamed up something fierce (unlike my other flat or barely carbonated ones). This one got a good dose obviously. Lol. I don't have a basement or cool place to keep my fermenter, so perhaps my temps got a bit high and caused an issue with how this stuff behaves. It's definitely a hardy yeast, no question, because I had a very thick yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter. The biggest one I have seen yet, at about an inch to inch and a half thick. It is nice tasting and no off flavours either, although I did notice the slightly sweet taste the OP was talking about. Unlike other beers/yeasts. This was a weird one, for sure, but I am no longer tempted to blame the yeast for my weird carbonation. I think it was the distribution of the yeast and what you mentioned, sensitivity to temp.

 

[kh54s10]

Yeah, I noticed that last night after opening another bottle. Unlike a few of my other bottles of flat, non carbonated beer, I had one practically explode on me, the second I cracked it. I think I got some uneven distribution of yeast when bottling, because this bottle, was anything but weakly carbonated! Read my update to my comment about what happened. It was pretty funny. Even my flat bottles are gaining "some" carbonation. It is getting better as it ages. The yeast cake on the bottom of my fermenter was the biggest I have ever seen, by the way. Almost an inch and a half thick. So yeah, Notty is a fermenting beast, even without any yeast nutrient or help or inverted sugar. Lol. I am pretty new to brewing and this was my first "odd experience" so I was tempted to blame the yeast, thank's to that poor carbonation action, but it's certainly not the yeast. Not when you get a bottle like that! I also edited my comment, to not be quite so critical of the yeast. Hahahaha! . Learning something new, all the time and that's why I love this site. Some really smart, experienced people here.

Your uneven carbonation was unlikely caused by uneven yeast amounts. This is very unlikely to occur if you are not adding yeast for bottle conditioning. I would say with confidence that it was uneven priming sugar amounts.

The amount of trub is more likely due to the recipe than the yeast. I bag my hops and have never had a trub at the end of fermentation deeper than 1/2 inch. 93 batches.

How long has this batch of bottles been conditioning. If over a month and you are still gaining carbonation, watch out for bottle bombs. It sounds like either you opened the first ones too early or you have an infection which will produce more co2 and possibly enough to explode the bottles.

 

[billd75]

Your uneven carbonation was unlikely caused by uneven yeast amounts. This is very unlikely to occur if you are not adding yeast for bottle conditioning. I would say with confidence that it was uneven priming sugar amounts.

The amount of trub is more likely due to the recipe than the yeast. I bag my hops and have never had a trub at the end of fermentation deeper than 1/2 inch. 93 batches.

How long has this batch of bottles been conditioning. If over a month and you are still gaining carbonation, watch out for bottle bombs. It sounds like either you opened the first ones too early or you have an infection which will produce more co2 and possibly enough to explode the bottles.

Well, unlike other can kits I have brewed, this one was larger (1.9 kg, compared to 1.5-1.7 with Cooper's or Munton's) so they are generous with the malt extract and generous with the 11 grams of Notty and even some extra hops in there. It was definitely not uneven amounts of priming sugar, cause I put the exact same amount in each bottle. I don't do bulk priming, I prime each bottle with a sanitized teaspoon and sanitized funnel. I also do not add any additional yeast when bottling, just what was in the fermenter. I am very religious about my sanitization and I believe you can never over sanitize. I have brewed about 8 kits and never had a mistake in terms of contamination or off flavours. Just weird carbonation in this one. The beer is only a week and a half old in bottles, so it is still quite green. I just like to test a bottle now and then, as it conditions. So, it certainly has not been a month or even 2 weeks. I think it's just slow to carbonate in some bottles and that certainly could be temp. or uneven distribution of yeast when bottling, now that I know that Notty is sensitive to higher temps. I am a couple of degrees above nominal for this yeast I suppose, as I have no cool place to store it, like a basement and I live in an upstairs apt. I am seriously thinking it is a combo of higher temp and uneven distribution in the bottles. As it is weird why some are really well carbonated and others are barely. Not a failure of the yeast in any way, it's just a little weird on temp. I guess and the way I bottled it. Thank's for your quick response by the way. You are really helping me learn and I will take any advice I can get on brewing, cause the people in here are really helpful and I want to learn more and get better. I just started dry hopping my can kits and when I am brave enough, I will start boiling extra grains to add to these can kits. Eventually, when I have the right equipment, I will start making beer from scratch, instead of the can kits and become a real brewer. Lol.

 

[kh54s10]

Well, unlike other can kits I have brewed, this one was larger (1.9 kg, compared to 1.5-1.7 with Cooper's or Munton's) so they are generous with the malt extract and generous with the 11 grams of Notty and even some extra hops in there. It was definitely not uneven amounts of priming sugar, cause I put the exact same amount in each bottle. I don't do bulk priming, I prime each bottle with a sanitized teaspoon and sanitized funnel. I also do not add any additional yeast when bottling, just what was in the fermenter. I am very religious about my sanitization and I believe you can never over sanitize. I have brewed about 8 kits and never had a mistake in terms of contamination or off flavours. Just weird carbonation in this one. The beer is only a week and a half old in bottles, so it is still quite green. I just like to test a bottle now and then, as it conditions. So, it certainly has not been a month or even 2 weeks. I think it's just slow to carbonate in some bottles and that certainly could be temp. or uneven distribution of yeast when bottling, now that I know that Notty is sensitive to higher temps. I am a couple of degrees above nominal for this yeast I suppose, as I have no cool place to store it, like a basement and I live in an upstairs apt. I am seriously thinking it is a combo of higher temp and uneven distribution in the bottles. As it is weird why some are really well carbonated and others are barely. Not a failure of the yeast in any way, it's just a little weird on temp. I guess and the way I bottled it. Thank's for your quick response by the way. You are really helping me learn and I will take any advice I can get on brewing, cause the people in here are really helpful and I want to learn more and get better. I just started dry hopping my can kits and when I am brave enough, I will start boiling extra grains to add to these can kits. Eventually, when I have the right equipment, I will start making beer from scratch, instead of the can kits and become a real brewer. Lol.

The yeast is in suspension, you cannot get an uneven distribution of yeast from a beer being bottled. Besides that the amount of yeast will not change the carbonation. It is determined by the amount of sugar that the yeast can turn into co2. More yeast will only give you more or less of a yeasty flavor.

Spooning in priming sugar into bottles is inaccurate. Even if you are very careful it is very hard to get the same amount in each bottle unless you are using carbonation tabs. Batch priming is much more accurate.

When fermenting the beer you want to control the temperature, when bottle conditioning you want them at room temperature, about 70 degrees for at least 2 weeks, usually 3 or more.

If you started opening bottles early, that is partly why you are getting uneven carbonation... They are not ready yet. The way you primed is adding to the problem.

When you get to the next step - DO NOT BOIL your grains. You want to steep them in water somewhere between 150 and 170 degrees F.

 

[ncbrewer]

^^^^ This

 

[corkybstewart]

Bulk priming is really the only way to get consistent results. You may think you're adding exactly the same amount, but I'm skeptical. Boil your priming sugar in a small amount of water, add it to the bottling bucket and then rack your beer into the bucket, You'll get much better results.

 

[billd75]

The yeast is in suspension, you cannot get an uneven distribution of yeast from a beer being bottled. Besides that the amount of yeast will not change the carbonation. It is determined by the amount of sugar that the yeast can turn into co2. More yeast will only give you more or less of a yeasty flavor.

Spooning in priming sugar into bottles is inaccurate. Even if you are very careful it is very hard to get the same amount in each bottle unless you are using carbonation tabs. Batch priming is much more accurate.

When fermenting the beer you want to control the temperature, when bottle conditioning you want them at room temperature, about 70 degrees for at least 2 weeks, usually 3 or more.

If you started opening bottles early, that is partly why you are getting uneven carbonation... They are not ready yet. The way you primed is adding to the problem.

When you get to the next step - DO NOT BOIL your grains. You want to steep them in water somewhere between 150 and 170 degrees F.

Wow, thank's for the advice and the lesson. Very interesting stuff. Now I know better how yeast behaves. So it is just a case of some bottles fermenting faster than others huh and the perhaps my priming method etc.? Makes sense I suppose and that will teach me to judge green beer. Lol. Can't judge till it's "truly" ready. They are all gradually gaining carbonation, even the previously flatter ones. I am also taking into consideration that Pilsners take longer, correct? This is what I have read and this is my first Pilsner. Plus it was a kit I am not familiar with. I am familiar with Coopers and Black Rock and am currently fermenting a Munton's Blonde, which is my first Muntons kit. I always thought that batch priming was not as accurate as bottle priming because you could get uneven sugar distribution, especially if the sugar settles. So restirring would be required to make sure it's accurate and it struck me that measuring it out and priming each bottle was a more controlled way to go about it. I guess I was incorrect in my thinking. Learning so much, so thank's again. Interesting stuff. I did get that same advice from the guy at the brew place when I went to pick up another kit today and was asking about adding grain wort to the can kits. He said the same. Start at about 165-168 for water temp cause when you add the grains it will drop the temp to about 155 or so, which is just about right for steeping. He even gave me a free sample of some grains, from some leftovers. Some pearl barley, another coffee type barley I was interested in trying and a light barely I cannot remember the name of, to add to my new Amber ale from ABC Cork Co. in the U.K. It's nice looking kit that comes with it's own hops too! Same price as the can kits ($19 here in Canada) but it comes in a pouch instead and the extra hops. Seems like a good deal. I got some dark Spray Malt DME from Muntons for it, rather than light or medium I typically pick, cause apparently it says it's good for lighter ales, which this amber is and cause I felt like trying a DME I never tried before. He said it would add a more "caramelly" flavour to it and darker color, so it won't be amber when I am done. It should be a nice mix, I figure. I asked if I should throw all 3 grains in there together and he said "sure" that's the idea, cause there is only a pound and a half in there and between the 3 I should have some interesting flavour mix, and who am I to argue with free, right? Lol. So he milled them up together for me, right there. I love this place, they give me little freebies like that and have earned my business, plus they have the best prices in town on everything and a fantastic selection of beer and wine stuff. This is gonna be interesting. My first grain boil (not boil, hehehe). I love the homebrew culture. You people are so helpful and even he said that. Cheers and here's to hoping I brew some good stuff!

 

[billd75]

Bulk priming is really the only way to get consistent results. You may think you're adding exactly the same amount, but I'm skeptical. Boil your priming sugar in a small amount of water, add it to the bottling bucket and then rack your beer into the bucket, You'll get much better results.

Great, thank you. I obviously had some misconceptions about priming. It struck me that measuring out priming sugar per bottle, was about as accurate as one could be. I suppose I was way off there. Interesting stuff. Totally not what I thought. Wow, could I be more green and new at this? Lol. :smack: Eight kits later and I am still so new, yet every kits has been successful, so I thought I was getting the hang of this. Lol. Still lots to learn, I see. This is going to be a learning experience and half, isn't it? I thought growing weed, was a learning experience and a lesson in organic Science and chemistry. Obviously, so is this. Hahahaha! I'll be a freakin Scientist in no time. I see you are a Stewart? Cool, so am I brother. My mother's side were all Stewarts (not Stuarts) and Sullivans. Then Bridges on my Dad's side. So I am mostly of Scottish origin, with some Irish thrown in for good measure. Lol.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah, I noticed that last night after opening another bottle. Unlike a few of my other bottles of flat, non carbonated beer, I had one practically explode on me, the second I cracked it. I think I got some uneven distribution of yeast when bottling, because this bottle, was anything but weakly carbonated!

Sounds more like uneven distribution of the priming sugar.

 

[Rhaop]

I tried notty from warm (68) to cool (58) I always get the same distinct flavor from those beers and i have never like any of those batches

I gave notty plenty of chances I just do not care for that yeast and fwiw I stopped using s-04 as well not saying i go and bash those yeasts because a lot of people enjoy it I'm not a fan, i wish someone could brew a beer secretly with notty and see if i can tell because now it's in my head not to use it anymore

 

[corkybstewart]

Great, thank you. I obviously had some misconceptions about priming. It struck me that measuring out priming sugar per bottle, was about as accurate as one could be. I suppose I was way off there. Interesting stuff. Totally not what I thought. Wow, could I be more green and new at this? Lol. :smack: Eight kits later and I am still so new, yet every kits has been successful, so I thought I was getting the hang of this. Lol. Still lots to learn, I see.

When I started brewing we paid $50 per month for 30 hours of dialup internet access at 2400 bps, there were no homebrewing forums that I knew of, and I didn't know a single homebrewer. I made every possible boneheaded mistake, but I learned from them. The people on these forums all started from scratch and are eager to help, just don't be shy about asking questions. But, at the same time keep in mind that if you ask 10 homebrewers how to do something you'll get at least 12 different answers, and none of them may suit your style or methods of brewing.

 

[billd75]

Sounds more like uneven distribution of the priming sugar.

I don't know how it could be, cause I put the exact same amount in each bottle and I always swish the bottle back and forth multiple times to dissolve it fully into the bottles, but according to some people in here, that doesn't matter. Bulk priming is apparently more accurate, which really surprised me, but you guys are much more experienced that I am. So I will take you word for it, cause you are the second person to say that. I reshook about 5 days later too when I noticed there was weak carbonation. In the hopes that stirring things up again, would kick the yeast back into action and eat up any possibly settled sugars or dormant yeast etc. Dunno if that made a difference, but it is getting better, for sure. Much better actually, as time goes by. That will teach me to judge green beer too soon. It could be how the yeast were feeding on the sugar, because I did not realize that Notty is a lower temp yeast and does not like higher temps. To the point it even stalls etc. according to some people. So it could be that it was feeding much more slowly in some bottles than others. They are all gaining carbonation better and better each couple of days and are more even now. I was being impatient I think and judging my testing too early. I just tried another one tonight and was perfect (chilled first this time, of course, unlike that last episode, lol). No foam overs and no flatness, just perfectly even carbonated beer. No off tastes and quite a pleasant brew actually. For my first Pilsner, it turned out beautifully. Refreshing and kind of fruity tasting. Better than the beer "juice" it was previously, lol. Very smooth and nicely fizzy. I am now thinking it was mainly temp and not bottle priming vs. bulk priming, as some have suggested, as I have never had issues with bottle priming vs. bulk priming before and every bottle is perfect and exactly the same across the board, no difference. I was a few degrees above nominal for this yeast, for sure (73-74 degree some days). It is quite low temp. preferring yeast (might as well be a lager, lol) which I did not know about it initially, till discovering these forums and this post in particular. We got a few hot days here recently and I am in an upstairs apt. No cool place to store it and no A/C. Now that we have had some very cool days and lots of rain, the temp is way back down and the beer is getting much better. This is a fussy yeast on temps. above 70 ish. I am just happy those higher temps did not produce any off flavours and they surely didn't. It could not taste better actually. Not even fully conditioned/aged and it doesn't taste green anymore at all. Smooth and crisp and one of my more tasty brews actually. Glad I made the comment though, cause you helpful folks have helped me understand MUCH more about the nature of brewing. I am pretty new to it.

 

[billd75]

When I started brewing we paid $50 per month for 30 hours of dialup internet access at 2400 bps, there were no homebrewing forums that I knew of, and I didn't know a single homebrewer. I made every possible boneheaded mistake, but I learned from them. The people on these forums all started from scratch and are eager to help, just don't be shy about asking questions. But, at the same time keep in mind that if you ask 10 homebrewers how to do something you'll get at least 12 different answers, and none of them may suit your style or methods of brewing.

Hahaha! How true man. I hear that. I started on the net back in those days too. The good old days of BBS systems (DOS based Bulletin Board Systems) before the world wide web even existed. The good old days of DOS internet access and Telnet and all that stuff. I became a Computer Technician because of my love of the tech. we had back then. Which pales by comparison to nowadays. It's a dream now, by comparison. So much info. and speed and a very mature internet. I actually remember moving at half that speed, 1200 baud. before 2400 came out, I bought a slightly faster "in between" speed of 1400 baud. Which was a step up from 1200. The good old days. Lol. We had fun, nevertheless. The games were pretty good back then, for their time. There was actually some homebrew information back then, I remember, cause my buddy made an Apple Pilsner he learned from being online and it was a nice beer actually, but there was nothing like we have now. Not even close. Just text documents with no pictures or videos or anything to assist. No Youtube and stuff, like now. It was about the price you mentioned too. About $50 a month. I remember it well. I thought I was getting a really good deal at $45 a month for 100 hours a month. Back when they had monthly hour limits on internet accounts. I kept track too, cause every hour you went over, it cost. I am 45 now and been a Computer Repair Tech for over 22 years. I've seen a lot change in that time. A whole lot.

 

[billd75]

I tried notty from warm (68) to cool (58) I always get the same distinct flavor from those beers and i have never like any of those batches

I gave notty plenty of chances I just do not care for that yeast and fwiw I stopped using s-04 as well not saying i go and bash those yeasts because a lot of people enjoy it I'm not a fan, i wish someone could brew a beer secretly with notty and see if i can tell because now it's in my head not to use it anymore

There is something "I dunno" about it. I can't really describe it, cause it's not a describable thing really. Just sort of a funny feeling in your cheeks or back of the throat, kind of like what the OP described or some comment earlier on. Not unpleasant really, or offensive tasting, no. Just kind of "odd". I could not even say "metallic" or anything, cause I have tasted that and this is not even like that at all either. I have tasted metallic tasting beers and coolers and hard sodas and this is not that. It is hard to describe. I do prefer the "mouth feel" of other beers with other yeasts. I tend to really like Coopers yeast and a yeast that came with a Black Rock kit I got called Whispering Wheat which was an ale. I am not really a fan of Notty now either and would not go seeking it out, that's for sure. I would actually avoid it actually now. It's "o.k." and ferments like a beast, in the fermenter at the right temps. like 68-70 or below, but it is quite touchy at higher temps and slows down a lot when not in it's ideal range and that could be leading to it's weird mouth/throat feel I get from it. It's great when chilled. Very refreshing, crisp and clean finishing actually. Once it's even slightly warm though, it's not nearly as nice and get worse with every degree it rises and yeastier. I would drink this Canadian Pilsner can kit again, most definitely. Very nice fruity overtones in it. Even my friend says it's a REALLY nice tasting beer, but I could do without the Notty yeast again. Just not my thing. It would probably be a good yeast with a much stronger and darker beer, like a heavy Stout or an even English Bitter. Then you would not even noticed whatever shortcomings it had in taste, cause they would be killed by the other flavours, for sure. Any lighter beer than those though and it would throw off the true taste of the beer, I would think. This Pilsner was sort of in the middle and I noticed the yeast as soon as it got slightly warm. It HAS to be ice cold to not notice it. First few sips are the best, but the end of the bottle, is weird and that's not the sediment doing it. I know that taste and I never drink bottoms. I scrap the last 1/2 inch, always.

 

[MaryB]

My first modem was a 110 baud phone cradle modem!

Hahaha! How true man. I hear that. I started on the net back in those days too. The good old days of BBS systems (DOS based Bulletin Board Systems) before the world wide web even existed. The good old days of DOS internet access and Telnet and all that stuff. I became a Computer Technician because of my love of the tech. we had back then. Which pales by comparison to nowadays. It's a dream now, by comparison. So much info. and speed and a very mature internet. I actually remember moving at half that speed, 1200 baud. before 2400 came out, I bought a slightly faster "in between" speed of 1400 baud. Which was a step up from 1200. The good old days. Lol. We had fun, nevertheless. The games were pretty good back then, for their time. There was actually some homebrew information back then, I remember, cause my buddy made an Apple Pilsner he learned from being online and it was a nice beer actually, but there was nothing like we have now. Not even close. Just text documents with no pictures or videos or anything to assist. No Youtube and stuff, like now. It was about the price you mentioned too. About $50 a month. I remember it well. I thought I was getting a really good deal at $45 a month for 100 hours a month. Back when they had monthly hour limits on internet accounts. I kept track too, cause every hour you went over, it cost. I am 45 now and been a Computer Repair Tech for over 22 years. I've seen a lot change in that time. A whole lot.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe you are quite correct! This may have been my issue too. I did not know that this was such a low temp yeast and I had mine at about a constant 72-75 degrees, so maybe that's why I got such weird action with it in the bottles and some uneven distribution of yeast when bottle. The bottle I opened last night foamed up something fierce (unlike my other flat or barely carbonated ones). This one got a good dose obviously. Lol. I don't have a basement or cool place to keep my fermenter, so perhaps my temps got a bit high and caused an issue with how this stuff behaves. It's definitely a hardy yeast, no question, because I had a very thick yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter. The biggest one I have seen yet, at about an inch to inch and a half thick. It is nice tasting and no off flavours either, although I did notice the slightly sweet taste the OP was talking about. Unlike other beers/yeasts. This was a weird one, for sure, but I am no longer tempted to blame the yeast for my weird carbonation. I think it was the distribution of the yeast and what you mentioned, sensitivity to temp.

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe you are quite correct! This may have been my issue too. I did not know that this was such a low temp yeast and I had mine at about a constant 72-75 degrees, so maybe that's why I got such weird action with it in the bottles and some uneven distribution of yeast when bottle. The bottle I opened last night foamed up something fierce (unlike my other flat or barely carbonated ones). This one got a good dose obviously. Lol. I don't have a basement or cool place to keep my fermenter, so perhaps my temps got a bit high and caused an issue with how this stuff behaves. It's definitely a hardy yeast, no question, because I had a very thick yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter. The biggest one I have seen yet, at about an inch to inch and a half thick. It is nice tasting and no off flavours either, although I did notice the slightly sweet taste the OP was talking about. Unlike other beers/yeasts. This was a weird one, for sure, but I am no longer tempted to blame the yeast for my weird carbonation. I think it was the distribution of the yeast and what you mentioned, sensitivity to temp.

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

And if they are all trending toward gusher stage, then it is a consequence of too much priming sugar, or of bottling before fermentation is fully complete.

 

[corkybstewart]

Nottingham is my go to yeast most of the time. I use a thermowell to monitor fermentation temps and Notty does great at 60F. I even brew some faux lagers with it at 57-58F for a very clean taste.

 

[MaryB]

Kegged my house ale today, it uses Notty. I let this batch ferment at whatever temps my pantry ran, started around 69 for 2 days then ramped into the low 70's then finished high 70's. Tastes the same as when I keep it at 64 degrees...

 

[billd75]

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

And if they are all trending toward gusher stage, then it is a consequence of too much priming sugar, or of bottling before fermentation is fully complete.

Ahhh, now this makes sense, because I use normal white table sugar to prime and I use double the recommended amount of 1tsp. I got some bad information for my size of bottles. I like how very carbonated the beer comes out, but when I popped a bottle last night, it made a loud pop. A lot louder than usual and I thought "that's a recipe for a bottle bomb." On my most recent batch I used a 1 tsp and a quarter of actual corn priming sugar, cause I found it was surprisingly cheap. Just slightly more than white table sugar. I didn't like the price of a pound of corn sugar from my brew place or anywhere else, for making batches and I already spend enough on my batches by using a pound of Munton's DME Spray Malt, which I like. So I would not use corn sugar for fermenting, especially now that I have learned to invert white table sugar (and the yeast go absolutely nuts for it, cause it's more readily available than sucrose table sugar) but for priming, the actual priming sugar does not add too much expense to my batches. I think I can handle 75 cents extra, lol. I just resent spending $5 on a pound of the stuff per batch though, when I can use $1.50 table sugar, inverted. There is this notion that other sugars like table sugar add "cidery" tastes and don't ferment properly or whatever other nonsense claims people make. I've experimented and indeed the people who have debunked these false notions are correct. There is no difference. Especially when you invert the table sugar, which is super easy and makes it more like a Belgian beer, which are nice and that is basically what they do. They "candy" their sugar, which is basically cheap white sugar, inverted. Then it is fructose and glucose, just what the yeast love and they do start feeding right away. Now, when we are talking spray malt, well, that is a sugar that certainly does make a difference and is superior and I like using it. It does indeed live up to the claims. Better head retention, smoother and fuller taste and body. It's $7.50 a pound, but well worth it. So it makes one of my pounds and the other pound is cheap sugar inverted. I am not rich by any means (on disability) and I like to keep my costs down, without sacrificing flavour and good beer and I think I have found the magic formula to achieve just that. My batches now (only done can kits so far), even with the spray malt and some better priming sugar, but using cheap white table sugar inverted, cost me a mere $27.50 for two cases of beer. Not bad, when you consider that one case of beer here in Canada costs an easy $40 from the beer store. I get twice that amount for at least $13 less. That's just for cheap beer here too. The bottom line stuff, which still tastes o.k. though. Better stuff at the beer store, costs about $50 a case. Not cheap and they take us to the cleaners on the stuff. Liquor too. Especially where I live. Their markup on Liquor is mental. The LCBO here in Ontario made 220 million last year. A good portion of that in the summer too, when people consume more. Once I get a handle of brewing beer better, I will tackle making Liquor next. It's pretty interesting actually. I am now experimenting with grains in my canned beer malt kits and I did my first partial mash of beer last night. Adding boiled grains to a can kit and it went pretty well. The air lock on my fermenter is bubbling away like crazy, so the yeast are enjoying the plethora of sugar. Lol. In my small fermenter I cleaned and cut some cherries (in vinegar and water, so as to not possibly contaminate my batch, cause who knows who handled that stuff in the store?), for an experimental batch in my little 2 gallon fermenter. The other 4 gallons is in the 5 gallon fermenter with no cherries. Should be interesting to see how they compare. Thank you for your answer by the way. It made the most sense to me so far. Everyone kept saying "uneven amounts" of priming sugar, but I measured them exact. Too much priming sugar though, were the magic words. I was indeed using "too much". That loud pop of a bottle opening last night, was a good indication. I don't want any bottle bombs, thank you. I have heard the mess they make. I have yet to have one and I do not want any either. Time to back off the amount of priming sugar, or it is bound to happen.