Nothing but issues since changing gear.

[marjen]

Hi all. So I am in need of some help here. I have been brewing since February. Up until a few weeks ago all was going great. I was brewing 5 gallon batches and they were all coming out very good to excellent. I have only been making NE IPAs so the recipes have been very similar with just minor changes to malt and hop combinations each time.

In early May I decided to get a bigger kettle so i could brew 10 gallon batches. I also have gotten a pump for whirl pooling and Speidel fermenters to replace the plastic carboys as almost every batch was exploding out of the carboys due to the volatile nature of WY1318 and lack of head space in the carboys.

I have no brewed 2 batches in the new setup and both have been a disaster. I went from not being able to make a bad beer to not able to make a drinkable beer and its really frustrating. I am not sure what is going on.

Basically the beer is murkey and tastes harsh and just terrible. There is no aroma at all. Recipes are ones I had been making before in 5 gallon form that all turned out great. Following Brewers Friend it basically said to double ingredients for 10 gallon batches, which I did.

I dont think the batches are infected, at least did not look weird. Fermentation completed seemed to complete (latest batch went from 1.068-1.010).

One potential issue is mash temp. I dont think the thermometer on the kettle is accurate. I do full volume BIAB and i think there is a chance either the bag or the grains something are altering the temp of the thermometer. Both times it was showing a drop of over 20 degrees within 15-20 mins of starting the mash. This last time I went and got my handheld thermometer and stuck it in the mash. It read 154 while the one on the kettle said 140. So definitely some kind of issue. Not sure if temps being off could have such an effect on the final outcome other than breaking down the sugars?

The ONLY other thing I can think of is something up with yeast? I had been using a full smack pack to make a liter starter for my 5 gallon batches. I have since been using one smack pack and a 1.5 liter starter for my 10 gallon batches. The reason being the size of my starter flask and the fact that the yeast has been so vigorous anyway I did not think it would be an issue but possibly it is?

I mean the other thing is maybe it is really not done? Like I said the numbers indicated it is. I moved the beer out of both fermenters into kegs this weekend 7 days post pitch. In the past I was always moving to keg 5-7 days post pitch and WY1318 works very fast. But maybe the harsh taste is yeast and or hops still dropping? Last batch got dumped, this I am going to leave in the keg for a little bit to see if it gets any better. I will probably next brew a 5 gallon batch with my old gear to see what happens.

On top of this my closed transfer process is still a nightmare. Sometimes it works sometimes its a constant problem. I could not get the beer to transfer yesterday. I even got ss brewtcech racking arms for the spiedel. Well they were all clogged up. Ended up only getting 1/2 of one fermenter out, the other one I had to finish with an opened transfer. There has to be an easier way!

Sorry to rant. I just have not been able to make anything worth drinking since this change, have wasted a ton of money on ingredients and a ton of time and dont know what is wrong.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

One potential issue is mash temp. I dont think the thermometer on the kettle is accurate. I do full volume BIAB and i think there is a change either the bag or the grains something are altering the temp of the thermometer. Both times it was showing a drop of over 20 degrees within 15-20 mins. This last time I went and got my hand held thermometer and stuck it in the mash. It ready 154 while the one on the kettle said 140.

Probably this.

 

[marjen]

Probably this.

So mash temp issues could have such a big effect on taste that the beer is undrinkable? I thought it would more effect OG?

 

[TheMadKing]

Basically the beer is murkey and tastes harsh and just terrible. There is no aroma at all. Recipes are ones I had been making before in 5 gallon form that all turned out great. Following Brewers Friend it basically said to double ingredients for 10 gallon batches, which I did.

Lack of aroma points me toward issue with your late hop additions and possibly your pump. What kind of pump did you get? Is it possible that it has grease or something in it that's causing an off flavor?

I agree that your mash temps are part of the problem. If you're mashing way too hot, you could be getting some astringency from the grain in addition to reduced efficiency.

What are you doing to your water? Did you scale the amount of mineral additions for the larger batch?

 

[kh54s10]

Mash temperature is likely the source. It changes FG, not OG, by how many unfermentable sugars are created or not created. If it is a dial thermometer it is probably adjustable. a 14 degree difference is HUGE, especially if you are on the edge of the range already.

Use a yeast calculator to determine the proper size starter. It varies with OG and the age of the yeast.

7 days fermentation could be fine or it could be too soon. It depends on the fermentation. You don't mention temperature. Colder could take longer. Hot can be very fast and be the source of off flavors. 5 days sounds WAY too soon to me.

Either figure out what the closed transfer problem is or give it up. If you are getting air mixed in when trying to troubleshoot - that could be a problem also.

You have identified 3 possible sources. I would work on the mash temperature first, then the yeast. I don't know if the transfer could be the problem or not. I have never tried a closed transfer so I don't know likely issues.

 

[GoeHaarden]

What about your fermentation temps?

Before I could control my fermentation temps, I could definitely tell a beer I brewed in the winter and beer I brewed in the summer. Winter brewed beers were always better...

 

[applescrap]

It is VERY, imo, unlikely mash temp created this problem. The yeast could have and or it wasnt ready. It sounds like it wasnt done. Also you may have racked all the bottom yeast and trub into your keg. Let it settle and then see if it gets better as you pour it off. Can you send a pic? What was your recipe. How did you make a New England IPA in seven days. You would need at least three days to dry hop it after the primary was done. If the recipe had a lot of wheat or oat in it, it's supposed to be murky. If you added a ton of hops too early in the boil and wheat it would be a murky bitter bomb. The pump could have been issue to as mk suggested. Really sounds like you transferred to much in the closed system transfer.

Sorry to hear about the new system. I know it can be frustrating. Using a new system will always take a few brews to figure it out. Keep at it I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[marjen]

To answer a few questions.

1. I got a blichmann riptide. The head was soaked in PBW prior to use. It also was NOT used in the first bad batch so I dont think it is the cause.
2. Water is RO. I am adding CA2 and and gypsum and yes I doubled the amount used for the 10 gallon vs 5 gallon batches.
3. With regards to temp as an example this is what the last batch looked like. Using the kettle thermometer first. I got it up to 162 strike temp. I added my 26 lb of grains. Stirred for a couple mins, put top on kettle and wrapped the kettle. It then read 162? Waited 5 mins it still read 162. Now this is after adding 26 lb of grains, it should have dropped into low 150s. I wait another 5 mins, so now a total of 10-12 mins has passed and it reads 150. I wait another 5 mins and it reads 140. So I dont believe it dropped this much. I put in my hand held it read 154. I decided to leave it alone at the end of the 60 mins the hand held still read 154 and the kettle 140. Strange thing is after I removed the bag, as I was raising temps the 2 would be pretty much in sync temp wise.

4. Hop additions are as normal. I do small at first boil, at flameout, whirlpool at 175 and then do a single dry hop (8oz) on day 3.
5. WY1318 is a VERy fast yeast. Fermentation is buzzing along at 4-6 hours, it has peaked within 48hrs and by day 4-5 typically no kruzen is left. Also the batch went from 1.064 to 1.010 by the time I kegged it I have always been kegging in this time frame and it had produced consistent very good/great beers.
6. While transferring is an issue, its not related to the taste, as I was tasting right after moving to keg. Oxidation, if a potential issue would not take root that quickly.

 

[marjen]

What about your fermentation temps?

Before I could control my fermentation temps, I could definitely tell a beer I brewed in the winter and beer I brewed in the summer. Winter brewed beers were always better...

Temps in my basement are still in the mid 60s. Temp in the fermenters was right within range upper 60s to peaking low 70s. Right in line with past batches. Also I had one past batch where the sensor fell off and temps went up to 84 and the batch was one of my best

 

[marjen]

Also you may have racked all the bottom yeast and trub into your keg. Let it settle and then see if it gets better as you pour it off. Can you send a pic? What was your recipe. How did you make a New England IPA in seven days.

1. I am wondering if its a racking issue and I am getting yeast and trub. I know its supposed to be hazy as all my past batches are but this is murky. Hard to explain but there is a difference. While hazy looks like juice, this looks like sludge.

Here is last recipe:

10 gallon batch(11.5 into 2 fermenters split equally)
20 lb 2-row
3 lb white wheat
1.5 lb flaked oats
1.5 lb munich malt
.5 lb flaked wheat

.5 oz columbus@60
1.5 oz columbus@10
2 oz mosaic 2 oz ekuanot at flameout
2 oz azzecca, 2 oz citra, 2 oz mosaic 1 oz columbus whirlpool@175

fermenter 1 (5 gal)
4 oz mosaic, 1.5 oz azzecca, 1.5 oz citra 1 oz columbus at day 3
fermenter 2 (5 gal)
4 oz ekuanot, 1.5 oz citra 1.5 oz mosaic, 1 oz columbus at day 3

 

[GoeHaarden]

Temps in my basement are still in the mid 60s. Temp in the fermenters was right within range upper 60s to peaking low 70s. Right in line with past batches. Also I had one past batch where the sensor fell off and temps went up to 84 and the batch was one of my best

Well, in that case I'm with everyone else. Work on controlling those mash temps. It's just weird that your thermometers are inconsistently consistent with each other.

 

[oujens]

I wonder if moving from 5 to 10 gallons might have an impact on your mash pH. Are you using any acid additions to control mash pH? Are you taking measurements or using brun water? If not, you might run your recipe and other data points through a calculator to see what the predicted mash pH is.

Also, do you have a TDS meter to test your RO water to verify it was pure?

 

[SlitheryDee]

It could be any one of the things you mentioned or a combination. All you can do is fix the problems you've identified and see if things improve. Luckily you have a baseline to start from. You were making good beer with your old equipment, so you can figure out what's wrong with your new equipment by process of elimination. Fix or replace your thermometer and see what happens. You weren't able to whirlpool before you got your pump, so try a batch without whirlpooling. Get a filter on the ends of all your intakes so you don't clog them up during transfers.

Also, larger batches tend to take longer to ferment than smaller ones. Give your next batch the full two weeks in the fermenter and see what it tastes like.

Each thing you change without effect you can check off the list until finally something works, then you can focus all your attention on that. For instance, if it turns out that your whirlpooling setup is somehow the culprit it doesn't mean you can't use it, but you will have to figure out why and fix it before you use it again.

 

[marjen]

It's just weird that your thermometers are inconsistently consistent with each other.

I know. The only thing i have noticed was they were off only during the mash it appeared. So I am wondering if the bag rubbing against the tip of the thermometer is causing it to be inaccurate. Even still I was at worst mashing between 140-160, all acceptable ranges, so it still feels like this might not be it. I understand having it fluctuate is not good, but should not completely kill it.

What sucks is this was going really well. I had a lot of good feedback from family and friends who all had tried my beer so I scheduled a big get together for aug 5 and have like 20 people coming over to taste my beer, lol and now I have a short window to figure this out. Worst case I will go back to 5 gallon batches and see if that fixes anything. But the pressure is on.

 

[marjen]

Also, larger batches tend to take longer to ferment than smaller ones. Give your next batch the full two weeks in the fermenter and see what it tastes like.

Of note here, I am splitting into 2 separate fermenters each had about 5.5 gallons in it. So it should ferment same as before correct? Only the wort(kettle) was the full volume. So I am doing one kettle boil and splitting into smaller fermenter batches.

Appreciate all the feedback, talking things though help!

 

[GoeHaarden]

I know. The only thing i have noticed was they were off only during the mash it appeared. So I am wondering if the bag rubbing against the tip of the thermometer is causing it to be inaccurate. Even still I was at worst mashing between 140-160, all acceptable ranges, so it still feels like this might not be it. I understand having it fluctuate is not good, but should not completely kill it.

This, and your beers seem to fermenting out pretty good so I'm not entirely convinced either. How long is your kettle probe? I wonder if it is too long and it is making a pocket with pushing the bag away from the kettle walls.

Someone else mentioned your water profile, and using a calculator to be sure. Good idea.

 

[marjen]

How long is your kettle probe? I wonder if it is too long and it is making a pocket with pushing the bag away from the kettle walls.

Its sticks into the kettle maybe 1-1.5 inches.

 

[jrgtr42]

I'm thinking there's a few things at work here, certainly the temps are a factor - too high or too low will cause problems. I would certainly calibrate the thermometers so at the least they are consistant with each other (obviously center on the mash will be a degree or 2 off from the edge, though) use freezing and boiling water to make sure they read correctly.
I think that you may be underpitching yeast to a degree. I've seen plenty of folks recommending pitching a 1.5L starter for a 5 gallon batch. I personally use 1qt starter for 5 gallons. I'm thinking about upping that to 1.5 (pretty close in to liters.)
Also, are you checking FG before racking over to make sure it really is done? Test, then wait a few days and check again? If same, then done, if not, give it a few more days.
Finally. are you sure all your new equipment was brew-clean? I usually like to give things a whirl with plain water before brewing with them, to see if anything weird comes out and to get a handle on performance.

 

[applescrap]

I trust your handheld, mash temp had nothing to do with this, imo. Curious to why you added all 8 ounces of hops in the middle of fermentation? I mean I know some Brewer's add hops during fermentation but I don't think they add the whole entire dry hop amount, and it's my understanding they do that towards the end of primary but still during. That much hops could have still been in suspension. I'm surprised you haven't clogged your keg. I can't help but think the issue here is trub and hops etc...got racked into your keg. It's all that Gunk your tasting. Cold crash your beer, hard, maybe even hit it with Jello and let it sit for a week, then re rack to new keg leaving, bottom sediment behind. After you racked how much trub was left. You used 14.5 oz hops per batch and a decent grain bill, I would suspect at least a gallon of trub. If it wasn't left in the bottom the fermenter then it definitely probably went in the beer. All the Hops you added at flameout and for Whirlpool could have isomerized if you let them sit in too hot of water for too long, maybe, too. Best of luck, hope it turns around.

 

[marjen]

Adding hops just past peak fermentation is general practice for this type of beer. I have used this process for about 9-10 batches successfully. Yes I generally have 1+ gallon of trub. Has not been an issue until I moved to 10 gallon batches (kettle batches still doing 5 in fermenters).

The kegs are sitting in the kegerator so I will let them sit for a bit and see if they are salvageable.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry to hear you're suddenly having trouble after a quick but successful startup. Definitely don't give up, and perhaps brew a batch on the smaller system to recalibrate. The penalty is only half the amount. Maybe you discover something that didn't make it into your new system or process.

Things like the speed of chilling a 10 gallon batch is much slower than 5 gallons, allowing for a less thorough cold break, that lingers and pollutes your beer's character and ultimate hoppiness.

Other things I can think of:

1. Did you clean (and I mean remove machining oils, etc.) from your new kettles and re-passivate them? Barkeepers Friend is great!
   
   
2. Cleaned all your other new equipment thoroughly. Washing Soda, Oxiclean, or PBW. Then sanitize with Starsan.
   
   
3. Take apart and cleaned all your valves.
   
   
4. Clean your hoses thoroughly. I've had to recirculate, in CIP fashion, boiling hot PBW fortified with lye for several hours to clean the insides. The PBW looked like strong tea after it was done. I then repeated it with fresh.
   
   
5. Do you always use fresh yeast? No overbuild starters, or harvest from previous yeast cakes?
   
   
6. 1.5 liters for 10 gallons is a royal underpitch. Most of us pitch 1.6-2 liter starters in 5.5 gallon batches. For example, use BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator to estimate cell amounts to grow and pitch. 1.068 beers are considered high gravity (>1.060).
   
   
7. Do you oxygenate/aerate your wort before pitching? How? Yeast needs to propagate and shouldn't be stressed in these beers. An underpitch in low oxygen wort could cause off flavors, perhaps murkiness, and impede the biotransformation these beers rely on.
   
   
8. Murky beer with no aroma (even after generous NEIPA style dry hopping) sounds like oxidation. How are the samples straight out of the Speidels?
   
   
9. Definitely fix the thermometer problem. Kettle mounted thermometers are inaccurate and slow as molasses to respond. How about treating yourself to a Thermapen Mk4, they're on sale for $79.20 right now (R/W/B).
   
   
10. Get a handle on the closed transfer issues. Rack water or Starsan instead of beer to perfect your techniques. Add the hop slurry from one of the fermentors to mimic your clogging problems, and solve them. Once you master those closed transfers without a hiccup, you may be ready for perfectly racking beer. Get an extra set of hands involved, if that helps.

 

[marjen]

Thanks for the response, answers below.

Things like the speed of chilling a 10 gallon batch is much slower than 5 gallons, allowing for a less thorough cold break, that lingers and pollutes your beer's character and ultimate hoppiness.

That is something to consider, it is taking quite a while for my immersion chiller to cool the wort, over 30 mins.

Other things I can think of:

1. Did you clean (and I mean remove machining oils, etc.) from your new kettles and re-passivate them? Barkeepers Friend is great!
   
   First batch no, I give it a rinse with stars. After the first bad batch yes! Soaked the thing in PBW and used barkeepers friend.
   
2. Cleaned all your other new equipment thoroughly. Washing Soda, Oxiclean, or PBW. Then sanitize with Starsan.
   
   Yes always use PBW and starsan.
   
3. Take apart and cleaned your all your valves.
   
   Yes did this prior to last batch.
   
4. Clean your hoses thoroughly. I've had to recirculate, in CIP fashion, boiling hot PBW fortified with lye for several hours to clean the insides. The PBW looked like strong tea after it was done. I then repeated it with fresh.
   
   I sent PBW and starsan through my new hoses. My keg lines also receive a PBW and starsan wash after I empty each keg.
   
5. Do you always use fresh yeast? No overbuild starters, or harvest from previous yeast cakes?
   
   New yeast. Though with the 10 gallon batches been using 1 smack pack in a 1.5 liter starter.
   
6. 1.5 liters for 10 gallons is a royal underpitch. Most of us pitch 1.6-2 liter starters in 5.5 gallon batches. For example, use BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator to estimate cell amounts to grow and pitch. 1.068 beers are considered high gravity (>1.060).
   
   I am really thinking this could be at least a big part of the issue. I think next time I am going to do a 5 gallon batch in the new system with my normal starter.
   
7. Do you oxygenate/aerate your wort before pitching? How? Yeast needs to propagate and shouldn't be stressed in these beers. An underpitch in low oxygen wort could cause off flavors, perhaps murkiness, and impede the biotransformation these beers rely on.
   
   I dump it into a sanitized 5 gallon bucket then from there dump again into the fermenter. Same process as always.
   
   
8. Murky beer with no aroma (even after generous NEIPA style dry hopping) sounds like oxidation. How are the samples straight out of the Speidels?
   
   Don't think its oxidation. This was during my tasting right out of the fermenter immediately after getting the beer into the keg.
   
9. Definitely fix the thermometer problem. Kettle mounted thermometers are inaccurate and slow as molasses to respond. How about treating yourself to a Thermapen Mk4, they're on sale for $79.20 right now (R/W/B).
   
   I just might do that.
   
10. Get a handle on the closed transfer issues. Rack water or Starsan instead of beer to perfect your techniques. Add the hop slurry from one of the fermentors to mimic your clogging problems, and solve them. Once you master those closed transfers without a hiccup, you may be ready for perfectly racking beer. Get an extra set of hands involved, if that helps.

[/QUOTE]

I tell you this is hit or miss. Sometimes, maybe 50 percent of time, goes off without a hitch, but when I have issues its a royal PITA. And the last couple times have been plagued with issues. I am looking to get a new fermenter, the fermentasarous which looks like it should have a better transfer method.

 

[marjen]

Well based on the feedback and some additional research my best guess at the moment is I under pitched the yeast. I used one smack pack with a 1.5 liter starter. Using the a yeast pitch calculator it looks like I might need 2 smack packs and a 2 liter starter.

I think this weekend I am going to do a 5 gallon batch in the new equipment with more normal starter. This will replicate my previous ingredient amounts with the same starter I was using. If something is still way off then there must be an issue somewhere in the new chain. I also might do a batch in the old equipment as well.

Its really the only thing that makes sense I guess. Except I did not have any issues getting past expected FG. Would that be the case with an under pitched beer?

1. The only constant in the new setup is the kettle. I did not use the new pump or hoses the first batch and I put 1/2 the batch in a carboy I was using the entire time, so I dont think it has anything to do with the Speidel fermenters either.
2. The kettle was soaked and cleaned extensively between batch 1 and 2, so I dont think it is some sort of issue with that.
3. That leaves only the possibility of under pitching yeast as all other ingredients were scaled 2x from 5-10 gallons.

Actually there is one other potential and that is the wort chiller. Its an immersion chiller so if that somehow had something funky on it, it would have infected all the batches. I am going to soak that in PBW tonight.

 

[cegan09]

Note on the thermometer thing. I had issues with a kettle mounted thermometer and BIAB. Don't know if it was bunches of the bag insulating the probe, or pockets of water that hadn't mixed with the gains, or what. But something about the probe sticking into the bag made it wildly inaccurate. I gave up on it after 3 batches. It was fine for anything where the bag wasn't in the kettle. During mash I could take my hand held, and get it right down near the probe and see wild swings there too.

So my process was:
- heat strike water using kettle thermometer
- Add bag and grains
- stir a lot to make sure everything was even
- ignore the kettle thermometer and use a hand held to check mash temp in a few places.
- Once mash was done go back to watching kettle thermometer while it came up to a boil.


For your problem, you've introduced too many new variables to just nail it down in a forum post. New brewing equipment, new fermenters, bigger batches, etc. Eliminate them one by one. Do something like the following

- with new equipment, brew a 5 gallon batch, use the old carboys, old recipe, old yeast starter amount, etc.
- if above is good, brew 10 gallons with the new equipment, but same old carboys, etc.
- If above is good brew 10 gallons and introduce the new fermenters

Other things, 7 days might have been good on your old setup, but have you measured gravitates at all on the new one? 1318 may be fast, but you still want to give it a couple days to clean up once at FG. If it's behaving different with the new fermenters, you'll have to adjust. If your closed transfer isn't working it could absolutely be that. NEIPAs oxidate crazy fast. There's a big thread on here about it. Turns them brown, ugly, and muted.

 

[cegan09]

I trust your handheld, mash temp had nothing to do with this, imo. Curious to why you added all 8 ounces of hops in the middle of fermentation? I mean I know some Brewer's add hops during fermentation but I don't think they add the whole entire dry hop amount, and it's my understanding they do that towards the end of primary but still during. That much hops could have still been in suspension. I'm surprised you haven't clogged your keg. I can't help but think the issue here is trub and hops etc...got racked into your keg. It's all that Gunk your tasting. Cold crash your beer, hard, maybe even hit it with Jello and let it sit for a week, then re rack to new keg leaving, bottom sediment behind. After you racked how much trub was left. You used 14.5 oz hops per batch and a decent grain bill, I would suspect at least a gallon of trub. If it wasn't left in the bottom the fermenter then it definitely probably went in the beer. All the Hops you added at flameout and for Whirlpool could have isomerized if you let them sit in too hot of water for too long, maybe, too. Best of luck, hope it turns around.

Adding hops at peak fermentation is a well used practice in NEIPAs. Even has a magical word for the reaction between yeast and the hops, biotransformation.

 

[marjen]

7 days might have been good on your old setup, but have you measured gravitates at all on the new one?

I measure pre-boil, OG and FG. I do not take multiple readings near the end, I dont have a way to do that currently without introducing oxygen. My reading have seemed normal. For example this batch was 1.032 pre-boil, i think 1.064 OG and 1.010 FG.

I am going to follow a similar path to what you suggested, but use her fermenters as I had 1/2 the first batch in old carboy and it had issues.

Also since I currently had nothing else to put in my kegs and 2 were empty I did keg these and last night I quick carbed them. One was still terrible, the other not as bad as it was the day before, so I am hoping it improves over time. Worst case I might through a bunch of hops in a bag in the keg and see if that makes it drinkable.

 

[mashineko]

How about the possibility of higher extraction of bitterness from the whirlpool stage? I find that with NEIPAs that rely largely on whirlpool additions, a change in the extraction rate for whirlpool hops result in a HUGE increase in bitterness. When I have people making their recipes on a 30g setup that I use, I usually need to ask them to change their hop addition based on the extraction of bitterness I get from the whirlpool, which is probably equivalent to a 10 min addition.

 

[marjen]

Well I did a quick testing this and I think I am going to be able to salvage one of the 1/2 batches. It is not nearly as bad as it was a few days ago. It is tolerable at the moment. Hoping by the weekend it might mellow out a bit more.

 

[marjen]

So this afternoon I am doing my first mid week brew day. I need to figure this issue out ASAP as I have a planned get together with a bunch of people on Aug 5 to drink my beer so need to get back on track. Today I am going to work a couple different angles.

1. Doing a 5 gallon batch.
2. Using my normal 1 liter 1 smack pack starter.
3. Using my old thermometer during mash.
4. soaked and scrubbed the hell out of my wort chiller which is the only other possible cause I could think of. It is the only piece of equipment I was a little laxed at really cleaning up.

I am going to use new kettle and fermenter however. I had issues in both old and new fermenters so don't think that is the issue. Also at this point kettle is as clean as its going to get so don't think the issue is the kettle itself.

On Sunday I am also going to do a 5 gallon batch but in old kettle. Hoping both turn out ok. If so I will probably just do 5 gallon batches for my party as I will know it will work and get back to messing with larger batches later. Means a little extra work, but I would run both kettles at the same time and get 10 gallons in same brew day.

Wish me luck. I need some good beer in the house lol.

EDIT Update: So I just tried a glass of the last problem batch, its actually rebounding, Not the best beer I have made, but not too bad. Drinkable at least. Still only about 11 days post pitch and 3 days since kegging. Hoping by the weekend it loses whats left of the after taste. Moral of the story I guess is patience.

 

[marjen]

SO confirmed first issue. Hand held and Kettle thermometer were in sync until I added the BIAB bag and the grains. After that they were off by almost 15 degrees. I stirred up the grains at 30 mins, then they were within 5 degrees but the thermometer is not accurate with the bag in the kettle.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Glad to hear that you've likely got this sorted out!

 

[marjen]

Glad to hear that you've likely got this sorted out!

Lets hope! This is my first batch with Galaxy so don't want it to be a dud!

 

[deepbluegroove]

The longer time it takes for your immersion chiller to cool the wort, the more bitterness will come out of the whirlpool hops.

The temp issue may also extract more tannins / or even denature the enzymes to convert the mash.

Also what are you doing for water treatment? Do you know your mash pH? Are you adding minerals ? Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium (epsom), etc to get to a specific profile?

Temp control for fermentation. If you don't have that and you under pitch you will eventually run into problems.

Lets say you under pitch, and don't add any calcium to your water. The yeast are going to be under nourished (not enough calcium and maybe not enough oxygen), and be spending a long time reproducing to get to the cell count to actually ferment your beer. But in the process they are stressed and they are making lots of off flavors. Then the temp is all over the place again adding more possible off flavors...

 

[IslandLizard]

Lets hope! This is my first batch with Galaxy so don't want it to be a dud!

I hope so too!

I do think you should keep a closer eye on your pitch rate, regardless.

1 liter on a stir plate is just enough if the fresh pack is no older than a month (77% vitality). 5.5 gallon @1.060 OG needs 230B cells, exactly what your 1 liter starter contains with not much margin of error.

However, when the fresh pack is older, or the yeast was even slightly compromised during storage, handling, or shipping, it starts to fall short. Even increasing starter volume to 1.5 liter provides you with an added safety margin.

For example, I make 1.6 liter starters in 2 liter flasks (or half gallon pickle jars) on an orbital shaker. 1.8 liter is about the limit with that setup. I also use gallon jugs to double the amount for 10 gallon pitches. For a DIPA I'll run a 2 liter flask next to it, etc. I routinely ranch yeast so I buy fresh packs only when needed.

For 10 (11) gallon batches, double the amount of cells is needed. Either build or buy a 2nd stir plate and another 2l flask (or two) or build starters ahead of time. You can store the decanted slurry in well sanitized (or sterilized) mason jars.

Are you pitching your 1 liter starter whole, 24 hours after starting it, without crashing and decanting? That will give you more vital yeast, as it didn't go dormant during cold crashing (or refrigerated storage), so you'll have a shorter lag time. The cell count still needs to be in the same range, though.

 

[eric19312]

I'll give you one more thing to consider. I read what you said about fermentation temperatures and how your best batch ever was the one that temps hit the mid-low 80s. I don't buy it. Ale yeast like temperature control. You are in your first year of brewing and started in the winter. Brewed great beer when it was cold and now it is early summer and the beer is not coming out so good. Invest in active temperature control, you won't regret it. A fridge or freezer with an inkbird controller is very easy. Maybe add a thermowell to the Spiedel. What you are describing is much more likely a contamination or fermentation issue than a mash temperature issue.

 

[marjen]

Well I was in another thread about starters and it made me realize I have been completely hosing my starters recently, damn. For some reason I have flaked and have been using 2 cups of DME. SO for the bad batches it was 2 cups of DME in a 1.5 liter starter, and for this latest batch, I actually did 2 cups in a 1 liter starter Not sure how I got off track from the required 1 cup for 1 liter starter. SO I am assuming this batch with not be what I am expecting. I am going to let it runs its course and keep it in the fermenter longer. I am assuming there are some seriously stressed yeast in my fermenter right now. I was planning on brewing this Sunday anyway, So I will make sure i make a proper starter this time.

I read what you said about fermentation temperatures and how your best batch ever was the one that temps hit the mid-low 80s. I don't buy it.

You can buy it or not, its the truth. I was expecting it to be bad and it really ended up being excellent. I was quite surprised. It was in the low 80s at least 12-18 hours. Once I discovered it I cut off the heater so it dropped back down. I will say that primary fermentation was most likely done by the time this happened as it was 4-5 days out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Well I was in another thread about starters and it made me realize I have been completely hosing my starters recently, damn. For some reason I have flaked and have been using 2 cups of DME. SO for the bad batches it was 2 cups of DME in a 1.5 liter starter, and for this latest batch, I actually did 2 cups in a 1 liter starter Not sure how I got off track from the required 1 cup for 1 liter starter. SO I am assuming this batch with not be what I am expecting. I am going to let it runs its course and keep it in the fermenter longer. I am assuming there are some seriously stressed yeast in my fermenter right now. I was planning on brewing this Sunday anyway, So I will make sure i make a proper starter this time.

Why not weigh your DME? Or at least calibrate your cup's worth of DME against what it weighs.

A 1.035-1.040 starter is made at a ratio of 1 DME : 10 Water, by weight.
For example, 100 grams DME per liter (=1000 grams) of water.

FYI, there are about 3 cups of DME in a pound.
So a cup of DME weighs about 151 grams, which is good for 1.5 liter of starter wort.

BTW, the starter guidelines from Palmer's How to Brew, 3rd ed. are wrong.

Even if you forget all of this, remember starters are 1:10.

 

[marjen]

Well I am back and don't have good news. I am honestly at a loss and beyond frustrated at this point.

I have had the beer in the Speidel for 9 days now. With my NE IPAs, when things were going well my time in fermenter ranged from 6-10 days. Usually out in 6-7. Sampling out of the fermenter always resulted in a fruity smelling good tasting beer (considering it was flat and warm). I just tried a sample out of the fermenter and it tastes gross AGAIN!! WTF.

This was a 5 gallon batch of a recipe I made before. I can't even describe the taste. It just hits your mouth and tastes terrible when you spit it out, there is a burning feeling in my mouth and it honestly makes you want to hurl.

I do not see any issues with my process. My mash temp was a little higher than I'd like but at 156 is very acceptable. My fermentation temps were in the upper 60s as usual. One thing I have noticed with all these bad tasting beers is the top of the beer is not clearing in the fermenter. Prior the top would always just look like beer. Now it just looks like it does during fermentation. Though only a thin (maybe 1/4) layer. Its just not clearing.

At this point I am going to leave it in the fermenter for a couple more days, see if anything changes. I have now wasted a ton of $$$ on ingredients and have not been able to produce a drinkable beer in about 6 weeks. 2 10 gallon batches and now this 5 gallon batch all bad. I have another one in the fermenter as we speak, it looks like its going good but I guess I can expect that one to suck as well. I just can't seem to right the ship here and I have not a clue as to why. My cleaning methods are solid, process is same as before. Just no idea what is happening.

 

[TheMadKing]

Well I am back and don't have good news. I am honestly at a loss and beyond frustrated at this point.

I have had the beer in the Speidel for 9 days now. With my NE IPAs, when things were going well my time in fermenter ranged from 6-10 days. Usually out in 6-7. Sampling out of the fermenter always resulted in a fruity smelling good tasting beer (considering it was flat and warm). I just tried a sample out of the fermenter and it tastes gross AGAIN!! WTF.

This was a 5 gallon batch of a recipe I made before. I can't even describe the taste. It just hits your mouth and tastes terrible when you spit it out, there is a burning feeling in my mouth and it honestly makes you want to hurl.

I do not see any issues with my process. My mash temp was a little higher than I'd like but at 156 is very acceptable. My fermentation temps were in the upper 60s as usual. One thing I have noticed with all these bad tasting beers is the top of the beer is not clearing in the fermenter. Prior the top would always just look like beer. Now it just looks like it does during fermentation. Though only a thin (maybe 1/4) layer. Its just not clearing.

At this point I am going to leave it in the fermenter for a couple more days, see if anything changes. I have now wasted a ton of $$$ on ingredients and have not been able to produce a drinkable beer in about 6 weeks. 2 10 gallon batches and now this 5 gallon batch all bad. I have another one in the fermenter as we speak, it looks like its going good but I guess I can expect that one to suck as well. I just can't seem to right the ship here and I have not a clue as to why. My cleaning methods are solid, process is same as before. Just no idea what is happening.

Can you describe the taste a little more?

"Burning feeling" points me to fusal alcohols, which points to fermentation/yeast issues.

Are you measuring the liquid temperature during fermentation or the ambient temperature? And if your starter was made with stressed yeast that might have caused issues.

It could also be an infection or chemical leaching in your fermentor. It might be worth doing a very very thorough cleaning and maybe bleach bombing.

Make sure you check inside your ball valve and all tubing and transfer equipment including your pump

 

[marjen]

Can you describe the taste a little more?

"Burning feeling" points me to fusal alcohols, which points to fermentation/yeast issues.

Are you measuring the liquid temperature during fermentation or the ambient temperature? And if your starter was made with stressed yeast that might have caused issues.

I am measuring temp based on the temp strip on the fermenter. It peaked at 72ish day two I then dropped it down into 66-68 range and let it rise to 68-70 going on day 11 now. This is well within range for the strain of yeast (WY1318) and in line with past batches.

I really dont know how to describe the taste other than the burning, especially at the end. And the beer is still very murky, greenish. And the top is not clearing at all.