Not impressed with my immersion chiller...

[day_trippr]

I think the "No" is due to those two 3-into-1 tubing merges.

With copper tubing you can pot that with solder fairly easily.
I'm not sure how you'd do it with stainless steel but if it had to be TIG'd it'd take hella longer because between the geometry and the thin-wall tubing it'd be brain surgery...

Cheers!

 

[blizz81]

With copper tubing you can pot that with solder fairly easily.

I'm not sure how you'd do it with stainless steel but if it had to be TIG'd it'd take hella longer because between the geometry and the thin-wall tubing it'd be brain surgery...

All that for a material that's less efficient for cooling...

 

[fnord]

didn't read whole thread, my method is chill to about 90f-100f with just hosewater and occasionally moving around chiller to mix up wort/get it to a more equivalent overall temp, then put output tube into a tub with 4-8 pounds of ice. After I have a few gallons in the tub I put my kettle in the tub, and use a pond pump to recirculate near-freezing water through my chiller. Chilling from outside and inside with water cooler than the wort. Works pretty well for me. To each his own but IMO it's a good combination of cheap and minimal work.

 

[schematix]

All that for a material that's less efficient for cooling...

Yes stainless is not as good of a heat conductor as copper, but it's good enough. If you look around you'll see people who have compared them conclude they are very close in real world performance.

 

[Homercidal]

I think the "No" is due to those two 3-into-1 tubing merges.


With copper tubing you can pot that with solder fairly easily.
I'm not sure how you'd do it with stainless steel but if it had to be TIG'd it'd take hella longer because between the geometry and the thin-wall tubing it'd be brain surgery...

Cheers!

I admit that copper would solder more easily, but there is a thread on here that describes soldering SS and I've done it with kettles. Not too hard to do, but requires a good liquid flux.

SS would not be as efficient as copper for transferring heat, but the difference may be minor in practical use and the ability of SS to hold up against some cleaners might be worthwhile to some.

Bending that stuff at home might be troublesome, though.

 

[Homercidal]

Oh, and it could still be done with plain old "T"s or manifold to break the lines into several.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I live in Texas and ground water simply isn't cold enough. I even hooked up my chiller to washer machine water valve and still had the same bad results like you.

I went and bought a pump and plate chiller and now...in 10 mins its down to 70 degrees no problem even with hot Texas ground water.

 

[Stillraining]

SS solders/brazes just as easy as copper.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suvkKuEURww[/ame]

 

[puttster]

If you got 3/8 refrigeration tubing that is 3/8" OD, so the ID is maybe only 1/4.
If so, you could use all 50 feet as immersion. Then to get the last 20 degrees do like folks say, unhook the garden hose and replace it with a small pump in a bucket of ice water.

 

[cegan09]

Just here to help drive home the advantage of a huge block vs cubes of ice.

When I go racing we use a cool shirt, which is basically the same idea as a wort chiller. Tight fitting shirt with tubes sewn to it that hooks up to a cooler filled with ice water and a pump. You pump cold water through the tubes and you don't overheat as much sitting inside a car with no AC, no heat shielding, and a 3 layer full nomex suit, in July.

If we use large blocks of ice (think the ones you can buy from most convenience stores) you can go over 4 hours before the ice is gone and you just start pumping warm water. If you use an equal weight of cubes it's gone in about an hour. The temperature of the water is the same with either, the cubes just melt that much faster. The same principle applies to wort chillers. Using larger chunks of ice will make the ice bath last longer.

 

[nDub]

The physics of fluid flow in a pipe tells us that that for a constant length of constant diameter pipe, you'll have less pressure drop if you use divide that pipe up into more parallel paths.

This seems counter-intuitive. I know for a fact that headloss is caused by friction (due to roughness) in the pipe wall. So if you increase the amount of pipe wall surface area to volume by splitting up the pipes it would seem to me that you'd lose more pressure.

Unless the parallel paths are are the same size as the original path...

I think the hydra uses smaller pipes to create a greater surface area to volume ratio so that more cooling water is in contact with the wort. Nothing to do with pressure.

 

[Redlantern]

This seems counter-intuitive. I know for a fact that headloss is caused by friction (due to roughness) in the pipe wall. So if you increase the amount of pipe wall surface area to volume by splitting up the pipes it would seem to me that you'd lose more pressure.

Unless the parallel paths are are the same size as the original path...

I think the hydra uses smaller pipes to create a greater surface area to volume ratio so that more cooling water is in contact with the wort. Nothing to do with pressure.

Wouldn't pressure go up? I mean same volume of water moving in same time period though less available area. Volume would drop, but pressure would be up.

 

[nDub]

Wouldn't pressure go up? I mean same volume of water moving in same time period though less available area. Volume would drop, but pressure would be up.

Yeah maybe I'm thinking of head-loss.

 

[fnbrew]

I put my kettle in a tub sink of water and a 25' IC. Once temp gets to 90-100 F. I drain and refill the sink to finish it off. My well stays at 55 or lower so I can chill 5 gal in about 20 min. Guess I'm lucky to have a well.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

I will probably get a little 8 dollar pump to churn the water in the pre chiller ice water while I just agitate the wort with my ic I guess.

 

[PADave]

My setup is a homemade 25' 3/8" chiller with a small pond pump. I have access to free ice, so that helps. I fill a big cooler with ice, then top off with water. At the start of the chill, I pump the ice water and save the hot water coming out for cleanup. Once down to around 100 degrees or so, which only takes about 5-10 gallon, I just recirculate the water back into the cooler. I don't think I've ever timed how long it takes, but usually by the time I've cleaned up, the temps are down and ready to transfer to the fermenter.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

I think the "No" is due to those two 3-into-1 tubing merges.

With copper tubing you can pot that with solder fairly easily.
I'm not sure how you'd do it with stainless steel but if it had to be TIG'd it'd take hella longer because between the geometry and the thin-wall tubing it'd be brain surgery...

Cheers!

Yep. You're right! TIG welding is pretty expensive in addition to the other fittings that we would need to source from suppliers that we do not currently have a relationship with. After all of that, it would be a tough sell to have an immersion chiller that takes longer to chill and costs quite a bit more than the copper version that we already have. We are not saying never, but we are not actively pursuing it at this time

Just here to help drive home the advantage of a huge block vs cubes of ice.

When I go racing we use a cool shirt, which is basically the same idea as a wort chiller. Tight fitting shirt with tubes sewn to it that hooks up to a cooler filled with ice water and a pump. You pump cold water through the tubes and you don't overheat as much sitting inside a car with no AC, no heat shielding, and a 3 layer full nomex suit, in July.

If we use large blocks of ice (think the ones you can buy from most convenience stores) you can go over 4 hours before the ice is gone and you just start pumping warm water. If you use an equal weight of cubes it's gone in about an hour. The temperature of the water is the same with either, the cubes just melt that much faster. The same principle applies to wort chillers. Using larger chunks of ice will make the ice bath last longer.

As far as homebrew chilling efficiency goes, ice cubes will win 10 out of 10 times over a solid block of ice.

A pound of ice in block form has the same thermal capacity as a pound of ice cubes. However, the difference in how long the ice lasts is based entirely on the surface area of the ice that interacts with the external medium. The block of ice in your cooler lasts longer than the ice cubes do, which means that it takes longer for the energy (heat) to transfer from the medium to the ice block rather than ice cubes that transfer heat quickly because of their increased surface area.

As it pertains to chilling wort, you want as much energy (heat) to be transferred as fast as possible. Since the higher your temperature differential between coolant and desired wort temperature, the longer it will take to chill and as a result more water or ice will be needed.

 

[applescrap]

+1 on agitating the chiller vigorously like a washing machine...I use the opportunity to aerate the wort so I make a frothy mess on top of my beer. Our ground water is about 55 this time of year..Only takes about 7 or 8 min to chill 5.5 gallons to about 78.
And No.... I have never had oxidation issues.

Do this!

Got jaded Brewing tips through brulosophy. I bought the cheapest immersion Chiller I could find plugged it into the water and 40 minutes later was disappointed. Fast forward hooked it up as strong of Water supply as I can get and agitated it and it was chill in like 10 minutes. Pumps and difficult things to clean are not for me.

 

[PADave]

As far as homebrew chilling efficiency goes, ice cubes will win 10 out of 10 times over a solid block of ice.

A pound of ice in block form has the same thermal capacity as a pound of ice cubes. However, the difference in how long the ice lasts is based entirely on the surface area of the ice that interacts with the external medium. The block of ice in your cooler lasts longer than the ice cubes do, which means that it takes longer for the energy (heat) to transfer from the medium to the ice block rather than ice cubes that transfer heat quickly because of their increased surface area.

As it pertains to chilling wort, you want as much energy (heat) to be transferred as fast as possible. Since the higher your temperature differential between coolant and desired wort temperature, the longer it will take to chill and as a result more water or ice will be needed.

Without a doubt. I tried using blocks once. First and last time. All about surface area and absorbing that heat. Cubes are a must.

 

[jbb3]

+1 on agitating the chiller vigorously like a washing machine...I use the opportunity to aerate the wort so I make a frothy mess on top of my beer. Our ground water is about 55 this time of year..Only takes about 7 or 8 min to chill 5.5 gallons to about 78.
And No.... I have never had oxidation issues.

Yeah but what about hot side oxidation!? LOL...

 

[CGVT]

Without a doubt. I tried using blocks once. First and last time. All about surface area and absorbing that heat. Cubes are a must.

Yep

Same here. Cubes work much better

I usually get two 16 lb bags at the "Twice the Ice" place for $1.75 per bag. (sometimes I fill the cooler at the machine. You can get 20lbs loose into the cooler for the same price) I start by dumping one bag in my cooler and save the second in case I need more to finish the job.

$3.50 for ice is not too bad as far as I am concerned.

 

[Stillraining]

Yep. You're right! TIG welding is pretty expensive in addition to the other fittings that we would need to source from suppliers that we do not currently have a relationship with. After all of that, it would be a tough sell to have an immersion chiller that takes longer to chill and costs quite a bit more than the copper version that we already have. We are not saying never, but we are not actively pursuing it at this time

Hmm...... Why Tig Weld?...you must have skipped over my post, Also no special fittings needed you can still use copper at unions. It would still be 99.9 all SS Good enough for me.
Also have you made a mock up and done a actual comparison test? How much longer actually are we talking?. 1- 2 min? 10? Compared to a standard old school copper IC from your competitors such as most of us have.

Only time I have ever gotten sick from one of my home brews was due to corrosion on my copper chiller. I inspect it carefully now before each use...I would gladly rid myself of that potential possibility forever with a Hydra SS IC...I have a stinking hunch your design in SS would cool just as fast if not even faster then the old school copper IC I currently have ....Just saying.

Don't underestimate your potential market. We are out here.

 

[Redlantern]

Without a doubt. I tried using blocks once. First and last time. All about surface area and absorbing that heat. Cubes are a must.

Would debate that one - with a caveat however

My only evidence is from doing, but when I chill the water in my pre-chiler bucket to the just above 32 degree zone that ice water reaches and have that ready before I need it, the big blocks have performed about equal to the cubes.

I do use the pond pump to keep the water circulating around the outside of my pre-chiller coil, and have monitored the water temperature. It remains about the same.

Without the pond pump and advanced prep, cubes does win - my guess is because the contact between ice and coil is better.

With a pond pump and getting the pre-chiller water chilled in advance, there is little difference if any regarding cooling. Because of this, block wins because I can make big blocks a lot easier. a two-liter bottle with the top cut off makes the perfect block of ice for that purpose. I choose this method so I do not have to buy ice.

 

[CGVT]

Ice is frozen. It is below 32 degrees. When you contact ice, you are putting a lower temperature against you pre-chiller than when it is sitting in ice water. The lowest temp the ice water can be, has to be above 32.

There is a rather large difference in cooling efficiency.

 

[Redlantern]

true enough if the pre-chiller were encased in ice, you would probably wind up freezing the tap water in a pre-chiller of sufficient length.

One could also put sufficient salt in the pre-chiller water, lowering the temperature of the liquid water. (think ice cream maker)

Difference here is circulating the water about the chiller ensures the coldest liquid is in contact with the coils at all times and also moves the warmer water away from the coil.

After all this discussion, it seems that instead of theory, I will do a simple experiment over the next week

I will not try to obtain different styles of ice, just what is available in the grocery store and the large blocks.

Pre-chiller bucket will be weighed to ensure water volume is the same for each test and the same amount of ice by weight will be used

I cannot measure the flow of the water, so I will have to mark points on the tap as position A and position B.

Design will be basically
crushed ice, tap at position A
crushed ice, tap at position B
Block ice (with water normalized at 32+) tap at position A
Block ice (with water normalized at 32+) tap at position B

Results will be simply temperature of water coming out of pre-chiller

Any input for this that may make it a better constructed experiment?

 

[CGVT]

Circulating the water is no different than moving the chiller in the ice/water. That is imperative in making a pre-chiller worth the time.

Bottom line, ice water is not colder than ice. If the ice is contacting the chiller it will be colder than cold water. It has to be.

Ice water, whether made from ice cubes or ice blocks is ice water. The difference is having actual ice contacting the chiller, not just ice water.

I've done it both ways. I tried to save a few buck by freezing blocks of milk jugs. (I cut the plastic away before using them)When there are blocks of ice, it does not cool as fast. I tried salt. It is more mess than it is worth.

I put a 16lb bag of ice in the cooler and put the chiller on top (one time I put the chiller in first and dumped the ice over it. It froze the leftover water inside. It was a pain). As it starts to melt the ice I work the chiller into the cubes. When I get to the point that I the cubes are mostly water I can feel a noticeable difference it the temp from the discharge side. If I need to bring my wort temp down more I then add the other bag of ice. The discharge temp goes down immediately and I finish chilling my wort.

 

[Redlantern]

Circulating the water is no different than moving the chiller in the ice/water. That is imperative in making a pre-chiller worth the time.

Bottom line, ice water is not colder than ice. If the ice is contacting the chiller it will be colder than cold water. It has to be.

Agree with the first point absolutely.

Second point seems to hold true until the ice begins to melt around the pre-chiller, then you still have 32 degree water around the pre-chiller - necessitating constant movement of the coil, and why have a device that is designed to do a job, only you have to keep moving it around to do the job?


Still - since everyone's technique and experience varies, a designed experiment should be interesting. Not absolute by a long shot, but the results should provide some information.


Additionally, the pre-chiller length, diameter, and tap water temperature all need to be considered. My results will be for a 50', Ø.375", double coil pre-chiller. Without knowing the actual water volume coming out, the results will still be lacking, but it will say what works better with my set-up.

Should I prove myself wrong, I will still post the results with a proclamation that you were right. Obviously a gentlemen's bet, but hey, what is there to lose?

 

[CGVT]

The point to number two is that you have to have enough ice to make sure that there isn't just "32 degree water moving around the chiller".

It will do it's job sitting in ice water. It will do it faster and more efficiently if you move it in ice, not ice water

I've found that using bags of ice works better for me.

Have fun with the experiment

 

[HomebrewNV]

Check out the Brew Strong podcast (Jamil Z. and John Palmer) on Whirlpools: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-whirpool-qa/

Loads of science that eventually comes to the point that you have to stir the wort while using an immersion chiller. 15 minutes should be enough to go from boil to pitch using a garden hose while 20 gallons has been my max. water use - treats those brown spots in the yard nicely.

 

[Redlantern]

It will do it's job sitting in ice water. It will do it faster and more efficiently if you move it in ice, not ice water


Have fun with the experiment

That part, I agree with 100%. Keeping the coil in good contact with colder media (of the same specific heat) will of course result in better chilling.

I am aiming at a solution for the lazy among us (myself included) that do not have a counterflow or plate chiller and don't want to be doing anything but waiting.

 

[jbb3]

The cheapest, laziest and most effective method when using an IC is to get a $5 paint stirrer from HD and put it on the end of a drill. For those with higher temp hose water, a pre-chiller to get it down those last 10-15 degrees is a plus...

 

[fenners]

The cheapest, laziest and most effective method when using an IC is to get a $5 paint stirrer from HD and put it on the end of a drill. For those with higher temp hose water, a pre-chiller to get it down those last 10-15 degrees is a plus...

I'm going to have to give this a go!

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

The cheapest, laziest and most effective method when using an IC is to get a $5 paint stirrer from HD and put it on the end of a drill. For those with higher temp hose water, a pre-chiller to get it down those last 10-15 degrees is a plus...

View attachment 358946

Okay, so just to be sure, this will not affect any type of oxidation with stirring the hot wort?

 

[jbb3]

Okay, so just to be sure, this will not affect any type of oxidation with stirring the hot wort?

LOL... I'm sure you could really derail this thread with that discussion, but on a HB scale, I've only seen folks bring it up as a concern and have not seen many if any say they've actually had issues with it. I also recall reading about an experiment where a couple of HB'er tried their best to create HSA but had no effect. Many don't believe it exists at the HB scale. Ask @Stillraining ...

But I like to hedge my bet when I can. My drill has 3 speeds and I run it in low gear until the wort get's below 100 deg. Then I crank it up and vortex the dog sh!+ out of it until it's down around 75. And whether you believe in HSA or not, there is no doubt that anything below 88 deg is definitely good aeration.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

LOL... I'm sure you could really derail this thread with that discussion, but on a HB scale, I've only seen folks bring it up as a concern and have not seen many if any say they've actually had issues with it. I also recall reading about an experiment where a couple of HB'er tried their best to create HSA but had no effect. Many don't believe it exists at the HB scale. Ask @Stillraining ...

But I like to hedge my bet when I can. My drill has 3 speeds and I run it in low gear until the wort get's below 100 deg. Then I crank it up and vortex the dog sh!+ out of it until it's down around 75. And whether you believe in HSA or not, there is no doubt that anything below 88 deg is definitely good aeration.

Hahaha! Awesome!

Yeah, I thought about that after I hit submit... I was like "Oh man, here we go!" I actually remember that article, he didn't taste any differences at all :rockin:

Whelp, good deal! I'm excited for my next brew day then! 8 dollar pond pump to circulate the prechiller sitting in ice, and that paint stirrer for the wort! Can't wait to time it next time!

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

Hmm...... Why Tig Weld?...you must have skipped over my post, Also no special fittings needed you can still use copper at unions. It would still be 99.9 all SS Good enough for me.
Also have you made a mock up and done a actual comparison test? How much longer actually are we talking?. 1- 2 min? 10? Compared to a standard old school copper IC from your competitors such as most of us have.

We are a bit leary about the stainless solder connection (not so much the copper...we have heaps of experience with that one) due to where the connection is on the chiller. The way the coils are positioned on the Hydra, you end up with some angular stresses in addition to water pressure. We have not done a Hydra with SS coils yet, but we have done testing with standard SS chillers compared to standard copper chillers, and copper won every time.

We are planning to do some additional testing and some more soldering on SS (this is another thing that we have done in the past that we did not have a warm fuzzy feeling about). We are not saying never, but we are the ones that have to stand behind our products and we will not release anything until we are very confident in the long term durability (the solder connection, not the stainless).

Only time I have ever gotten sick from one of my home brews was due to corrosion on my copper chiller. I inspect it carefully now before each use...I would gladly rid myself of that potential possibility forever with a Hydra SS IC...I have a stinking hunch your design in SS would cool just as fast if not even faster then the old school copper IC I currently have ....Just saying.

Don't underestimate your potential market. We are out here.

How were you able to track down the illness to the copper?

true enough if the pre-chiller were encased in ice, you would probably wind up freezing the tap water in a pre-chiller of sufficient length.

One could also put sufficient salt in the pre-chiller water, lowering the temperature of the liquid water. (think ice cream maker)

Difference here is circulating the water about the chiller ensures the coldest liquid is in contact with the coils at all times and also moves the warmer water away from the coil.

After all this discussion, it seems that instead of theory, I will do a simple experiment over the next week

I will not try to obtain different styles of ice, just what is available in the grocery store and the large blocks.

Pre-chiller bucket will be weighed to ensure water volume is the same for each test and the same amount of ice by weight will be used

I cannot measure the flow of the water, so I will have to mark points on the tap as position A and position B.

Design will be basically
crushed ice, tap at position A
crushed ice, tap at position B
Block ice (with water normalized at 32+) tap at position A
Block ice (with water normalized at 32+) tap at position B

Results will be simply temperature of water coming out of pre-chiller

Any input for this that may make it a better constructed experiment?

We would recommend that you do not limit the flow rate of the source water for a few reasons, but the main one being that the flow rate will be most consistent at the fully open point as there is a very consistent stop. If you want to check your flow rate, time how long it takes to fill up a 5 gallon fermenter and divide 5 by the time (in minutes). So if you get a time of 1.5 minutes, you would do 5/1.5 = 3.33 GPM

Also, if you really want to kill it with data, put a temp probe in the pre-chiller bucket too.

Ice is frozen. It is below 32 degrees. When you contact ice, you are putting a lower temperature against you pre-chiller than when it is sitting in ice water. The lowest temp the ice water can be, has to be above 32.

There is a rather large difference in cooling efficiency.

The ice being able to be below 32F has no appreciable effect on chilling due to the low specific heat of ice. If ice is in water and has started melting in any amount, the ice is not going to be less than 32F, it is at 32F. The phase change from solid to liquid is where all the heat capacity of ice lies. Changing a given mass of water from ice to liquid takes 90 times more heat than raising the same mass of ice 1 degree F. To put this in perspective, ice would need to be -58F to have the same effect on a given volume of water as the 32F ice to 32F liquid phase change.

 

[CGVT]

Thanks for the clarification

I will defer to the guys that have some skin in the game...

 

[Stillraining]

How were you able to track down the illness to the copper?

I might not ever had figured it out had it not been for this forum...I was convinced it was due to way to strong ( 5 or 10x strength cant remember now) of StarSan solution at bottle washing. But reading someones post in a thread about the issues with copper and its safety...It was mentioned that nothing about copper itself is detrimental to us except for the blue green corrosion that can form on corroding copper, and that stuf was highly Poisonous. Well a light bulb went off because on that exact batch there was a 2" long section of blue green corrosion on my chiller from it being stored wrong...I just rubbed most of it off with my finger and used it anyway, after all hot wort kills everything right!

Ya, that one should be in the " Don't Do that" thread.

Only batch I have ever had to dump.....of course not until after drinking 5 and getting sick 3 different times just to prove it was the beer.

Yah Ill buy a SS Hydro from you...Go ahead make one.. I Triple-dog-dare ya! Let me be your test guinea pig...:rockin:

If you want to just send the parts and have me solder it together and test it out that's fine too. I will buy them from you and take that risk away from you.

 

[schematix]

Count me in too as a stainless Hydra beta tester.

I think I'm gonna pull the trigger on a copper one this weekend as soon as you guys reply to my last 2 emails....

 

[mongoose33]

The ice being able to be below 32F has no appreciable effect on chilling due to the low specific heat of ice. If ice is in water and has started melting in any amount, the ice is not going to be less than 32F, it is at 32F. The phase change from solid to liquid is where all the heat capacity of ice lies. Changing a given mass of water from ice to liquid takes 90 times more heat than raising the same mass of ice 1 degree F. To put this in perspective, ice would need to be -58F to have the same effect on a given volume of water as the 32F ice to 32F liquid phase change.

Thank you--I've read the whole thread up to this point waiting to see if anyone talked about phase change, and you did!

You can see this intuitively--when you fill a glass with really cold ice cubes (say, 0F), and pour a little water in, that water will likely freeze--because the ice is well below freezing temp.

But after a while, as the entire glass warms, as you add water it doesn't freeze--the ice just bobs around. The ICE is at 32F but it's the phase change as it melts that keeps cooling the water to 32F.

It's why ice in a cooler lasts so long--takes a lot of heat to melt that ice, which keeps things cool.